Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
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This thread is now closed. Please comment on Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
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Even though I had indicated I would not be giving a statement re reasons for renouncing, I was nonetheless asked why. Thanks to Brock I was prepared for this, and had already written down something to say, which the consul madly typed while I was reading out my blurb.
And, although this was not asked of me, someone did say they were asked “Why now?”. So I was prepared for that one as well. (“Well, I only recently found out one can renounce”).
And, as others have said, for good measure don’t mention the T-word.
I renounced nearly a year ago and was not asked for a reason but was prepared to say that after over 45 years in Canada, I did not have ties to US, and wanted to simplify my life. I would not have mentioned taxes. They know why people take this step and there are only a few reasons. I was treated with respect.
I’ve read through all of the comments, but have a few questions. I’m filling out my forms and am going to send email request for appointment in Canada soon.
Do you have to choose the closest consulate or embassy to renounce? Forms are vague on this. I live in Toronto, but would like to renounce in Montreal to get an earlier appointment time based on posts I’ve read here. Yet, I read here (not on this thread) about someone who did the same thing and was told in Montreal that she couldn’t renounce there because it wasn’t closest to her address (Toronto was) and she would need to make an appointment in Toronto. This was a few years ago.
If I put Toronto in email as first choice and it’s too far off, can I “try again” for Montreal? Not sure how process works after submission.
They ask for forms to be filled out completely. I know not to sign/date etc., but should I fill in consulate location as well?
Also, anyone know the current wait times for Toronto or Montreal? I can’t find anything current.
Thanks for all of the help. This is an invaluable resource!
When re renounced, a few years ago, the appointments people sent a letter asking a few basic questions and ending with ‘ please provide your top 2 choices ( in order) for where you want to renounce” one choice was ‘anywhere in Canada’
There was no requirement to go to the nearest.
Without wait times, there is no easy way to pick among Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City or Ottawa. I would add a comment at the bottom of the list of choices to say earliest between TO and MTL.
You can’t yet fill in the consulate location.
Re: “Anyone know the current wait times for Toronto or Montreal? I can’t find anything current.”
The last info I have is from six months ago, at which time Montréal was 4-5 months and Toronto was 11-12 months. Wait times have changed wildly, back and forth in length at different locations, since we started tracking. In general, Toronto has been consistently longer than Montréal, but don’t know about right now specifically
Until recently, they included a list of wait times in the renunciation info package. They don’t seem to be doing that currently. But maybe you could find out if you write them. I see on their website, “Should you have any questions please send an e-mail to CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov. List your name, telephone number and the best time for you to be reached by phone and a representative will contact you accordingly.”
Re: Portland wrote: “When re renounced, a few years ago, the appointments people sent a letter asking a few basic questions and ending with ‘ please provide your top 2 choices ( in order) for where you want to renounce” one choice was ‘anywhere in Canada’”
I think they’ve discontinued the option to make a second choice, as in the renunciation info packages I’ve received from the booking system recently, they’re just listing the 7 embassy/consulate locations and “first available location” as choices.
Mark, As far as I know, if you have problems after submission, you send a follow up email to the same email address.
We had an interesting experience. Asked for an appointment in Vancouver in September. By December hadn’t heard a peep. Were contemplating Stockholm because we would be there on a cruise the following spring.
Finally wrote a nasty letter to Washington with an email copy to the renunciation folks.
They telephoned the same day to ask if we had not received our appointment for early February. (We had not). Even though they had our correct email address, something had gone wrong. It all worked out. Total delay was 21 weeks
Thanks for the insight!
By the way, I found a fairly current post about wait times. I’ve copied it below…
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-60/#comments
Stephen Kish
“A friend of mine is trying to obtain an appointment at a U.S. Consulate in Canada in order to renounce U.S. citizenship.
Here are the current average wait times for appointment he received yesterday (July 9. 2019):
Ottawa – 6 to 7 months
Calgary – 3 to 4 months
Halifax – 6 to 7 months
Montreal – 5 to 6 months
Quebec City – 4 to 5 months
Toronto – 11 to 12 months (!)
Vancouver – 3 to 4 months”
@Mark
If you don’t want to wait that long, you can renounce sooner outside Canada. Some here have gone to Mexico, Iceland, London, Amsterdam, Luxembourg etc . Perhaps you could combine it with a business trip or ‘renunciation tourism’ ?! Email each embassy for information .
Hmmm. “Renunciation tourism”. Maybe that would be a good sideline for some of the bricks and mortar travel agencies which I have read are facing an existential threat from the many online travel sites.
@ Heidi
Renunciation tourism … thanks for the term. I just used it in a comment section below an article about US birth tourism which Trump wants to end. Hope you don’t mind.
@Maz57 and EmBee
‘Renunciation tourism’
Not sure if it is my term, I have been here so long I may have picked it up somewhere! LOL
If I only had time! However, a nice trip to Montreal to cut the wait in half is doable and enjoyable.
I haven’t heard back from the State Dept. yet about renouncing in a city that isn’t closest to where I live. I just wanted confirmation that it’s ok from them, as I read somewhere here about someone who went to renounce in Montreal and was told that they needed to rebook in the city closest to where they lived in Canada. This was a few years ago, but I was wondering if anyone had heard of such an experience or had a personal experience to the contrary recently?
Mark. All appointments for all the consulates are done from one office in Vancouver. They are not made by the individual consulates. If they give you an appointment in Montreal or wherever, it will be honoured.
If you want very fast you could consider Iceland. When I renounced you could pick any Wednesday that you wanted. All staff very friendly. Non-stop flights from Canada.
FYI- I got a response from State Dept. and they included current wait times for Toronto and Montreal (initial email had stated that wait times wouldn’t be provided)!
“Thank you for you inquiry. Please be advised that you may schedule an appointment anywhere in Canada. Sure to complete the section on the questionnaire that asks for your first and second (optional) choice for a location in Canada. The current wait time for Toronto is 11 to 12 months and 5 to 6 months for Montreal. Please note that these are subject to change and merely reflect the wait times at the time this email was sent.”
Hello All, Kabby here you all helped me go through the renunciation process early last year. It is now time to file my final tax forms. I have some questions and wonder if anyone can help me. Do I file a 1040 for any income from 1st January to date of renunciation and do I have to file a 1040NR for the rest of the year? I didn’t have any US income after renouncing, no assets there apart from small bank account with maybe $6 interest. Do I file a final FABAR and report the amount only up to the date of renunciation in my case late January last year? On form 8854 under assets what does fair market value and then US adjusted basis mean at the top of the column? what exchange rate do you use of the tax forms? the date you renounced or the date at the end of the year last year so Dec 31, 2019 or my date of renunciation? what forms do I send where? I am a Brit living in the UK and have been tax compliant and filed a tax return each year. i only have a property my sole residence in the UK which I bought in 2006 when i was already a naturalized US Citizen. What other forms do I need to send apart from the 1040 and 8854? Thanks for any help you give and want to get over the last hurdle and put this all behind me
Hi Kabby
I decided not to file anything, so I have no personal experience to offer you. However, this might be of interest. There are other articles on this website which go into detail about the 8854, so have a good read, and good luck! https://hodgen.com/your-expatriation-tax-return-when-u-s-income-is-zero/
Kabby interesting dilemma. We renounced in early February a few years ago. Argued (to ourselves) that only income was Canada Pension plan which is not reportable on US returns. After renouncing, had no US source income. So we didn’t file a 1040 or 1040 NR. Haven’t heard a Dickie bird.
If you choose to file, your official return is the 1040 NR. with a sea of zeros. You fill in a 1040 as well. On the 1040 you write at the top “dual status return”. The 1040 isn’t signed. The numbers are carried over to your 1040 NR which you sign and send to Austin Texas.
We did file a final FBAR because it was easy to do online. The values are as of the day you renounce. The exchange rate can be from the US treasury or Bank of England as of that day.
On the 8854, fair market value is exactly what it says. Value of your investments, house, and so on as of the day you renounce. Exchange rate as of the same day. I would not include a government pension benefite. If you have a defined benefit pension plan it is impossible to determine its present value. Best to conveniently forget to mention it. You can use reasonable numbers for your assets . You do not need formal appraisals. It is important to get your net worth under 2 million US$. Otherwise you are a covered expatriate subject to the exit tax.
US adjusted basis is the cost of your assets when you bought them . Xchange rate as of the purchase date. Any capital improvements to your house are part of the cost base.
If you file a 1040 N R, the 8854 goes with it to Austin. Send a copy to Philadelphia. If you don’t bother with the 1040, your 8854 goes only to Philly. OR, you could say bugger it and take BirdPerson’s advice. There is precious little they can do. Good luck.
I’m doing this from memory and am neither a lawyer or accountant. Good luck.
Here is a more recent article from Hodgen (Hodgen is the go to guy)
https://hodgen.com/paperwork-expatriates/
Ignore everything except ‘dual status returns’
Now here is where it gets silly. The IRS talks about US tax residents when they mean and should say citizens. That is if you are a US citizen, the IRS claims you are a US ”resident “ for tax purposes. But they can’t seem to make it simple to understand.
When you read resident, substitute citizen. Then you will begin to understand. The bottom line is that if you decide to file, you file a dual status return. The 1040 up to your renunciation day is a statement that is attached to your real return which is a 1040NR. You would write “dual status statement” across the top of the 1040 and “dual status return “ across the top of the 1040NR.
OR forget the whole silly f*****ing mess.
There were many reasons why I refused to do any US tax paperwork. With the 8854, it was because ALL of my financial life is in the UK. I did not want to give the IRS a ‘shopping list’ of assets which were accumulated solely by income earned (and taxed) in the UK. It’s nothing to do with the USA.
But if someone does want to divulge everything, you can ask your company pension to provide a ‘transfer value’ which you can then stick on the 8854.
Hi Bird Person, Portland and thanks for the messages. Just to recap I had US income form 1st January last year to date i renounced later that month. So presumably I complete a normal 1040 form for that plus any non US income on it and then reading what you say I also complete a 1040 NR form for any US Income after the date of renunciation which was zero in my case? I write dual status return on the top of the 1040 and the 1040NR? I
One other question maybe someone can help me with. On the 1040 NR form it asks various questions after Page 1 on page 2 such as signature asks “your occupation in the United states”? Does anyone know if that means when you were living there and a US citizen or what does it mean? Another question on Line 55 on the 1040NR it says Self Employment tax attach schedule SE 1040 or 1040NR) If I had self employment income from Jan 1st to the date of renunciation so I put that on form 1040 for the part of year I was a US citizen or on this 1040NR form? I did not have any self employed US income after I renounced so the 1040NR is a confusing form. it goes on for 5 pages and page 4 even asks tax on income not effectively connected with a US trade or business? Page 5 asks what country were you a citizen during the tax year, were you ever a green card holder or US citizen and even days spent in the US in the year 2019? Help!
Kabby, you might do better to post this in the tax questions thread?
Kabby. Precisely why it’s easier to say bugger it. If you were to consult an accountant, it will cost 500-1000+ We’re not in a position to answer all of your questions . If you decide to go it alone just do the best you can. They can’t ask for more. They only check 1/300 returns other than a computer screen of the math.
@Kabby…
One way to look at all this is that filing nothing will cause you no trouble whereas filing something with a bunch of mistakes could be an invitation for the IRS to torment you with annoying correspondence and possible fines and penalties. Those who attempt to comply are the ones who get into trouble with the IRS.
As far as hiring a professional goes, its hard enough to find a professional preparer outside of the US who knows how to file an ordinary US return let alone find one who knows how to properly file a final return plus a Form 8854. (And if you did manage to find one you wouldn’t want to pay the price, anyway.)
Any US filing obligations you had ended the day you renounced. The IRS would like you to believe that you are obliged to “log out” of the US system afterwards, but in actual fact you are now forever beyond their reach. Your financial affairs are now officially none of their business. Eventually, the US State Department will inform the IRS that you lost your US citizenship but there is no evidence that the IRS has ever done anything with that information. The IRS is underfunded, understaffed, and overwhelmed and unless you send them something that catches their attention, they will never miss you.