Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@S.B.
Your case sounds quite straight forward for a pre-2004 relinquishment. See the sidebar “Important! If Relinquishing Act Performed Prior to June 4, 2004”. You would do as you mentioned and present your past relinquishment to a US consul and pay US$2350. You would not be on the hook for tax filing or exit tax etc.
This all assumes you were 18 or older when you naturalized in Canada in April 2002. Is that the case?
Think we may have a troll here. Someone called Sandra has made the same post, almost word for word here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-236/#comment-7599131
Is there any way to report such occurrances other than in the thread/blog they appear in?
@SB
You might point out to your bank that the Canadian IGA allows for a “reasonable explanation” in lieu of a CLN. Brock can provide you with enough information to formulate a reasonable explanation for your bank.
It seems my fear that banks will railroad relinquishers into the US tax system is not unfounded.
Thanks, Medea,
Re: “Is there any way to report such occurrances other than in the thread/blog they appear in?”
You can e-mail a moderator about it.
@SB
Welcome! But if you’re also Sandra please use only one name when posting (whichever one you prefer). That’s just about the rule around here – it avoids confusion. Also, to avoid confusion, please only post a question on one thread at a time.
But once again, welcome, and regarding Bubblebustin’s comment about reasonable explanation, here’s a link to what constitutes “reasonable explanation” in the Canada-FATCA IGA and the CRA Guidelines on FATCA.
Also, in addition to the WhatAmI’s suggestion about the important “Read These if Relinquishing Acts Performed Prior to 4 June 2004” thread in the sidebar, also check out several threads, such as How to Renounce/Relinquish, Self-Documented Relinquishment, etc, in the sidebar.
@Pacifica how? Where do you find any place to e-mail from? Nothing obvious that I can see so where is it hiding?
Hi,
Sorry guys, I did post twice. I was having issues with my phone and thought I had lost my original post. I am not a troll, I can assure you. I’m just looking for some sound advice, thanks again.
@Medea,
That’s a good point. Now that you bring it up, I don’t think we do have contact info in a clear, easily found place on the site. I’ll get in touch with the other mods and we’ll set that up. (As for me, I’m at pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca)
@Pacifica, I’ve never seen anything on the website for contacting a mod. Not that we seem to need it much here – either you’re all doing a very good job of spotting or we simply don’t get that many. But it would be useful to have contact info in case it’s needed in future for whatever reason.
To WhatAmI,
I was over the age of 18 when I became a Canadian citizen. I think I’m going to have to save for a while in order to pay the $3000 CND, in order to rid of the US citizenship.
@Sandra,
Here’s what I would do. I’d find a new new financial advisor, or tell that one you are haven’t been a US person since 2002. If the advisor says you need a CLN, ask for the advisor’s law degree. You can provide backup to your position by showing the applicable law (someone here can provide it). If the advisor pushes, threaten to go elsewhere, or demand the advisor pay for the $3,000 paper.
What people don’t realize is that often advisors have a symbiotic (and sometimes unhealthy) relationship with tax accountants. Unless your advisor is with a bank, I’m betting your new advisor has a tax accountant name and number all ready for you to throw money at.
There’s also the option of self-directed investing through an online brokerage.
@Sandra. If your facts are as stated you have already lost your US citizenship. Your last day as a US citizen was the day before you became a Canadian. That financial advisor is dead wrong and should stick to investing and stop dispensing totally incorrect advice on US citizenship law. He can be safely ignored. (Since when did financial advisors become experts on US citizenship law, anyway?)
That US$2350 fee will get you nothing but a piece of paper (a CLN) which documents your loss of US citizenship. However, in your case, if you were not born in the US, have no SSN, and are not in the IRS system, why would you put yourself in harm’s way by appearing at a Consulate and applying for a CLN? The US State Department notifies the IRS when someone loses US citizenship and that definitely puts you on the IRS radar.
If I were in your shoes, I would fire that financial advisor, find someone else, and ignore this whole sorry business. In the future, just be way more careful about mentioning you were once a US citizen.
@The Mom
I actually know of one couple who were sent to an accountant by their Canadian bank. Turns out this couple had relinquished decades ago, but had the presence of mind not to follow the bank’s advice.
They ended up calling me because our MP suggested they give me a call to discuss US tax stuff. I felt pretty confident from what they told me they had relinquished when they took Canadian citizenship, which was later confirmed by someone more qualified than I am to make that determination.
As Maz57 says, it’s absolute madness that financial advisors are making these kinds of determinations. They’d better load up on their errors & omissions insurance if they’re going to be giving such advice.
BB, I’m not really surprised about the bank.
I had an advisor tell me a few years ago that I would HAVE to file US tax returns, had an accounant for me…cheap. Yeah, right! lol. I didn’t even have any investments, and had been a SAH mom for over 15 years.
If I’d been in Sandra’s shies, instead of an accidental with a US birthplace, I could have been quite happy. And saved $450 US and airfare for 2 to the consulate. But then again, I enjoyed wigging out on the consulate. lol. Quick, get the pissed off, crazy lady out of here! 😀
Can anyone here explain how to get to this thread from the sidebar? Otherwise posts get lost.
@Sandra,
I was re-reading your post and realised you said you have a European birthplace. With such birthplace, generally one doesn’t have a problem.
I think it’s a good idea to look at the links I and others have recommended so you get a good picture of what your various options are re CLN or self-documenting, etc. But, based on your birthplace, it sounds like you’re in a good position to do nothing – except that your current financial advisor believes you to be a USC.
One thing I would do – if this financial advisor is with a financial institution and is saying anything about, or you have reason to believe that, his financial institution will be reporting you per FATCA, then I’d be putting my “self-documented relinquishment packet” together (citizenship certificate, copy of s. 349(a)(1) of Immigration and Nationality Act, and copies of relevant sections of the FATCA IGA and CRA FATCA Guidance at the links in my earlier comment), so I’d have it handy to use if necessary.
In any event, I would make it clear to this guy that I’m not a USC and why, and I’d consider changing to a different advisor at a different financial institution. With a new financial institution, if asked your citizenship, don’t mention American, and if asked your birthplace, no problem.
@Duke,
There’s a link to this thread on the “How to Renounce/Relinquish” page in the “Important Info” Box in the Sidebar.
This has become a semi-dormant thread, because it’s pretty much the same as “Relinquishment and Renunciation of US Citizenship” thread in the “Ask Your Questions About” Box in the Sidebar. We started this thread to track CLN data, but transferred data tracking to the Consulate Report Directory about three years ago.
I think it might be a good idea to close this thread with a message (and link) to go to the “Relinquishment and Renunciation of US citizenship” thread. I’ll bounce that idea off the other moderators. But if we do that, we won’t do it while a current discussion is taking place on it, as is the case right now – we’d wait til it goes silent again, so don’t hesitate to keep the current discussion going.
Sandra. Please pay attention to the excellent advice from the Mom and maz57.
There is no need to spend $3000. for a CLN. The bank is supposed to accept a reasonable explanation why you don’t have one. At the time you became Canadian and ceased to be an American, there was no need to inform the state department or to get a CLN. That is a reasonable explanation.
If you do decide to go ahead and get one, it is certain that you have no need to file anything with the IRS. Good luck.
Sandra, We can point you to the relevant page in the IGA if necessary
@Sandra…dittos on all the above advice. You are NOT a US Citizen, period. Further, you have no indica, period.
IF you wanted to buy a CLN it would be a waste of thousands of dollars and worse yet once you enter the State Department system it is possible they could somehow deny you!!!
Here is what you need to do to self document;
1.) Make a copy of your citizenship certificate. Maybe request a copy of your original application to Canada so the packet looks more official.
2.) Print the US Code section;
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
3.) Print the single page of the CRA guidelines that shows a CLN is not needed for pre-2004
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/gdnc-eng.html
4.) Spend $100 and go to a lawyer or notary and swear an affadavit that you relinquished your USC on _______ when you became a Canadian Citizen. (Optional)
@Sandra
*I recently got a new financial advisor and he had indicated that if I did not have a Certificate of loss of citizenship that I was still an American*
Get rid of him… this proves he is not looking after your interest. Does he have a law degree? Probably not… After giving u the wrong info… I would be unable to trust crap he tells me… Plus… if he thinks u are & not fessing up… his info to help grow your funds will be bias to cover his firm… Being a US person is a nasty secret… u have a foreign birth so u have no indication… tell no one… its not like the old days when no one thought it was a big deal… its a big deal now…
British Passport, green card holder, worked in the USA for 25 yrs. Now living in Germany for the last 20 years. My salary originates from the USA. Is it true that you have to give up 15% of your total wealth (assets) in order to tear up your green card.
@Ray
There is a whole section on Green card holders here on the Brock site.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/green-cards/
Take some time to read through it then make your decision to relinquish the card or to stay under the radar, depending on your circumstances. Do you need to travel to the US?
Long time green card holders must go through the process of abandonment by completing an I 407, and an 8854 assessment form of their net wealth, those with over $ 2,O00.000, must pay tax on their ‘unrealized’ gains. There is an approx 650,000 allowance.
@Ray
More reading material
http://www.mytaxhouse.com/?p=1381
https://hodgen.com/reverse-time-avoid-exit-tax-if-you-are-a-green-card-holder/
Have a renunciation appointment. I am looking at the 8854 tax form that has to be summited in 2018. My husband is really uncomfortable about me exposing the ownership of our house eventhough my combined assets including my half of the house is way below the $626000.
My question is, if omitted how would the IRS find out that I even own half of our home?