Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@ Frank,
I just got a reply today from Toronto regarding booking, that you now have to e-mail them at torontopassport@state.gov in order to book for renunciation/relinquishment and send a couple of forms in advance. (You used to just book on-line and show up.)
When I did e-mailed them today, I got a robo-reply followed by a detailed reply a few hours later. I posted it at this comment — http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-110/#comment-1815793
I had my counsel app today in Calgary to request my back dated relinquishment, it did not go well, the vice counsel said he was going to request it be denied, I requested he send it through to Washington. My full experience is on the Consulate report directory. Anyway they basically told me that my oath was not required if I was already a Canadian registered at birth and that if I thought I was no longer a US person when I was 21-25 then how could my work for the federal government show I intended to expatriate when I already believed I did not have citizenship. So if Washington also denies my request, then do I renounce, do I have to file taxes to do that?
They are getting pretty hinky in Calgary about letting people relinquish because it means they have to forego the $450 ransom. I was told that they wouldn’t recommend “approving” (the clerk’s word) my relinquishment. I could send it to Washington, but it would take six months, probably wouldn’t be approved, etc., etc. there was definitely pressure to go the renouncing route. So when I folded (sorry to say), I was assured that would be the end of it, that they could look after it right there and then, and in twenty minutes I was done.
One other thing: I asked the clerk for clarification on the item about taxes because the way it’s worded it sounds like you can be taxed at the US government’s discretion, even when you are no longer a citizen. The clerk had no idea either what the clause actually meant.
Catch 22 at its finest. If Washington applies the same catch 22 logic , you do not need to file before renouncing. After renouncing you will be told to ‘contact” the IRS. That means filing form 8854. There has been a lot of acrimonious debate here as to the pros and cons of filing 8854 when someone never believed they were US Citizens.
I have a question. What if your relinquishment is denied? Do they give you back your U.S. passport and you are U.S. citizen until you renounce?
I am asking this because I was recently told by a consulate officer when I asked for an update on my CLN due to relinquishment and upcoming travel that I was still a U.S. citizen until my relinquishment was processed by the lawyers in D.C. I had not been told this at the time of relinquishment only when I asked for an update seven months afterwards.
Now I see the Toronto consulate has updated their frequently asked questions section to say you cannot travel on a Canadian passport if you are still a U.S. citizen. I was told by the consulate officer when I relinquished and inquired about this at the time that I COULD travel on my Canadian passport. If I had renounced I’d have a receipt to show along with my Canadian passport.
Those who relinquish have nothing to show at all and are now told they cannot travel on their Canadian passport as they are still considered U.S. citizens. Well, they took my U.S. passport upon the date I relinquished. It seems to me if they are going to allow renouncers to travel with a foreign passport and a receipt that something ought to be available for those who relinquish. I wrote today to ask for an interim letter of travel but, I’m not hopeful I will get one. I asked before if there was some document in the meantime I could get and did not get a favourable answer. Some people ARE getting interim letters of travel but, so far I have not been able to.
Now I am very worried about the mixed messages, a verbal assurance from the consulate officer that I could travel on my Canadian passport as opposed to what they now have posted on their website. I am assuming they updated the website after others inquired and/or had problems crossing.
It has soon been ten months since I relinquished with just days left before we travel for a family wedding get together with my dad not being too well.
I am just not sure given the mixed messages of two different consulate officers telling me to travel on my Canadian passport while the website now says I cannot. If I am confused about this then surely the border officers will be!
I would be interested in this as well. I feel that after relinquishing I am in limbo and unable to travel. I could imagine trying to cross and being told I must use a US passport and I feel from past experience they wouldn’t even comprehend the concept that I have a relinquishment in progress. Once relinquished I did tell family back home that even if there is an emergency I might not be able to get there. It would be a nightmare to pay for a NZ to US flight and be denied entry. I even feel like it would be hard to argue at the crossing that I had relinquished. They would probably just say “sir, I can not allow you in on a NZ passport”, if I argued they would probably threaten to detain me, etc. Hopefully I get my CLN soon, it’s been 8 or 9 months!
@ AtticusInCanada
I think there’s a chance you may get that interim letter but if you don’t, you might try informing them by e-mail that this is standard practice at the Calgary consulate and it should be at the Toronto consulate as well. You could prompt them a bit by showing them the format used by the Calgary consulate. This is what my husband was sent by mail within days of his relinquishment.
Official Consulate Seal
United States Consulate General
[address]
Date
[Name of Relinquisher]
[Address of Relinquisher]
Dear Mr. [last name],
This is to confirm that you, [full name], born on [date], in [city, state], personally appeared at the U. S. Consulate General on [date]. You signed a Statement of Voluntary Relinquishment before a Consular Officer of the United States to relinquish your U.S. citizenship under Section 349(a)(1) of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
The loss of nationality documents will be sent to the Department of State in Washington, DC for final approval and you will receive a Certificate of Loss of Nationality if your relinquishment is approved. The Certificate of Loss of Nationality is the sole legal document establishing your loss of nationality. Pending approval of the certificate, you remain a U.S. citizen.
Your valid U.S. passport number [number], issued on [date], at the National Passport Center has been retained by the U.S. Consulate General.
We will not issue a replacement passport.
Best Regards,
[signature]
[name]
Consul
He was told that with his Canadian Passport and the interim letter he would be able to cross the border while waiting for his CLN to arrive. He hasn’t tested that out but if he does he will also make sure he crosses at a smaller border crossing where there is generally less hassle than at the major one in Alberta. I think the key is that they put his US passport number on the interim letter which should satisfy the border guards (if they are reasonable).
Hope that helps a bit and GOOD LUCK!
Thank you so much Em. I will try offering them the template. Honestly, this has been such a pain. First I was told I would get my CLN in four to six months. Twice I was told to go ahead and travel on my Canadian passport when I pointed out I had no receipt and said I had travel planned. When I relinquished in Sept. I had NO IDEA it would end up being June with no CLN in sight but, asked about travel at that time anyway.
NOW, I”m told nearly a year for a CLN and no I cannot travel on Canadian passport. It doesn’t matter what you are told if they are putting up on their website not to travel on a Canadian passport now. Here I am days before travel and the rules keep changing. Rounding up four people for travel is difficult enough and I don’t want to be the reason to hold everyone up or not show up for my sister’s wedding because they have now changed the rules. Before it seems no one was having any issue to travel on a Canadian passport. To top it off we’re crossing at the one crossing where I’ve always had surly border officers this time.
My nerves are so frazzled. I just want this over and done and have the proper documentation. This has as of this month consumed over three years of my life and the hoop jumping continues. Good grief…I wouldn’t have ever owed them a dime. There really needs to be a standard form for every relinquisher. I think I am going to call D.C. tomorrow and if my paperwork is approved and in order ask if I can pay for over night FED EX’d CLN.
That’s an abominable wait time for your CLN, Atticus. It’s almost like they aren’t content with putting a dagger into you they have to twist it around for a very long time to make sure they produce the maximum amount of pain. And yet for others it’s relatively quick and easy. That inconsistency is puzzling for those who wait and wait. The phone number in DC that you have — is it for the office that Pacifica gave us the address for awhile back? My husband may have to phone them if he is still waiting 5 months from now. Here’s that address and I’d be grateful to get the phone number too:
Clay Adler,
Division Chief
Western Hemisphere Affairs
Office of American Citizens Services
10th Floor, SA-17
Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington DC 20520
Without the CLN in hand how do you handle your tax filing for 2013? It should be up to Sept. but it feels risky to assume a CLN before your actually get the CLN. It is all very frustrating, very confusing and we all just want some peace of mind, a normal life and we deserve it.
I filed everything immediately after I relinquished that I could file and then in January filed 8854 as I was told I could do this by the accountant I used. I don’t think there will be any problems with that as my forms were so simple. She called to confirm with IRS nearly everything I did so apparently even if you relinquish you can still file 8854. IF it is denied then I will have to amend.
However, in my case the consulate officer called D.C. and confirmed before she accepted my paperwork that mine was indeed a relinquishment. She then told me four to six months. AS she told me mine was a relinquishment I do not know what is taking so long since I assumed based on consulate officers remarks that it would be approved, no problem when she confirmed with D.C.
When I wrote to them after seven months I was THEN told “they are still working on approving your case” I was not told it was not approved since it was verified with D.C. on the day my paperwork was accepted. Seven months in was the first time I was hearing I would need to wait for approval.
There have been quite a few inconsistencies in the things I’ve been told though I do think each officer has tried to be helpful. I just wish I had been told the full story back in Sept. as I would not have assumed I was approved and not have assumed I could travel on Canadian passport. There is a lot of back and forth, push/pull.
I do wonder why people in some countries are getting their CLN within a month and others are waiting quite a lot longer. LOL I thought I was such a tiny minnow with such an uncomplicated case what on earth could be taking up so much time?
At any rate I’m going to use the number Pacifica posted and call them tomorrow. I’m even a little worried it could go missing in the mail OR arrive while we are away which I do not want to happen. Someone is collecting my mail but, I don’t want that document handled by anyone but, me the day it arrives. I really don’t want to be a pain to them but, I do need to travel and I was told four to six months and I AM a minnow. I was told “we have hundreds of these” at the seven month mark but, still I should have moved further up the que by now.
@ AtticusInCanada
Well I’m back to being as confused as ever. My husband’s interim letter (Feb 2014) says he is a US citizen until he gets his CLN. However, they seemed to be telling him at the consulate that the CLN would be back-dated to his Canadian citizenship ceremony (Sept. 2013, when he got a witnessed letter that he was affirming his allegiance to Canada with the intent of relinquishing his US citizenship) and yet others say, no, the effective date for becoming not a US citizen is the date of the relinquishing appointment (Feb 2014). I think now he will have to try to some get clarification from the Calgary consulate before June 15th or he could be hit with a 10K 8854 penalty. What is that phone number, BTW?
@AtticusinCanada
Yes, anyone who relinquishes/renounces is considered (in the eyes of the USG) to be a US citizen until the CLN is issued. I was told that when I renounced as well.
As far as not being able to travel on a non-US passport – I think that is nonsense and just scare tactics. I’ve heard of people being threatened, but never of people actually being turned away. If I were you, I’d just present the Canadian passport and leave it at that.
@Em: The phone numbers are published in the Public DoS Directory:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/160933179/State-Dept-Telephone-Directory-13-0830
Office of American Citizens Services (CA/OCS/ACS)
Director Brendan O’Brien 10th Floor, SA-17 202-485-6234
Division Chief (Africa) Jack D. Markey 10th Floor,
SA-17
202-485-6358
Division Chief (Western Hemisphere) Clay Adler 10th Floor, SA-17 202-485-6289
Division Chief (Europe) Teresa Mendel 10th Floor,
SA-17
202-485-6245
Division Chief (Near East South Asia) Viktoria Lopatkiewicz 10th
Floor, SA-17
202-485-6186
Division Chief (East Asia Pacific) Brett Pomainville 10th Floor
SA-17
202-485-6261
@ RMA
Thank you.
@Atticus
I tweeted Ambassador Heyman with your problem. I’ll sit tight waiting for his answer (lol).
@Em, I’ve tweeted him before. He seems to be taking the approach of see no evil, hear no evil. Not a peep from him. Yes, let’s all “sit tight”
However, did hear back from State this a.m. that they will look into getting me a letter stating I have a case pending. Hope they are able to.
I did state that with their website update that it is possible for renouncers to travel with their receipt and Canadian passport but, relinquishers have nothing to show and now are told not to travel on Canadian passport. I think they are trying to sort it out for me. I might be the first one to point this out and ask this question. If I had never been American I could travel as any other Canadian. Good heavens!
They said my case is still pending and stated it is taking longer than the usual three to four months. A lot longer for me it seems. Never, ever thought back in Sept. I’d still be waiting in the middle of June. I don’t even think they’ve looked at my paperwork yet. Hope I get the letter and hope it’s good enough. Also, do wish if this is going to take so long for so many that some clarification on how to go about traveling would or could be given.
I did get the interim letter so I’m good to go there and hopefully will have minimal issues at the border though I do anticipate some questioning.
I was told my CLN would be dated to the day I relinquished. Contacted an accountant who called IRS and was told to I could go ahead when the form for 2014 became available and file 8854. If this was incorrect it was done on IRS advice. I don’t anticipate any issues with this really as the information would be exactly the same. However, I do see that perhaps IRS gave bad advice to the accountant and I should have waited. I will call her to clarify but, I still don’t see any problem with it as my CLN will be dated to the day I relinquished if the information I was told is correct by State.
Neither State nor anyone else mentioned to me until March that I was still a U.S. citizen. Even then I was only told I was to act as if I was still a U.S. citizen which wasn’t all that clear to me. I relinquished in September no one said a word at all about still being a U.S. citizen and from Sept. 26 until March when I contacted them for an update I no longer believed myself to be a U.S. citizen at all. Why take your passport if you are still a citizen and the passport is still valid? You could be required to pick up CLN in person, bring passport which they would take at the time you get your CLN. Seems a bit nonsensical to confiscate the passport of someone still a U.S. citizen. They could just record the number for their paperwork.
The interim letter mentions that I am still U.S. citizen and gives my passport number. This is the first I”m hearing that my passport number is still valid as is stated in the letter. I think perhaps there needs to be a little more clear direction on the part of some State officials. I feel Toronto is really, really over whelmed with these renouncements/relinquishments. They were trying to be helpful and have been helpful but, I’m assuming here that there is some confusion as to how exactly to handle all of this. I do feel sorry for those working there that are trying to deal with all this avalanche when this was a rare occurrence in the past.
I think perhaps it is consulate dependent as to how long it takes. Officers in Toronto are courteous and try to be as helpful as possible but, given the length of time it is taking to get a CLN when applying from Toronto as opposed to other locations I think perhaps there is a very high number of people being processed through that location. What a mess for all involved.
@Em
This is how I understand it:
If the relinquishing act is renunciation, then the date on the CLN will be the date of renunciation; i.e., the date of the consulate appointment. OTOH, if, like your hubby, you’re documenting a prior relinquishment, then the date on the CLN will be the date of the prior relinquishing act – which in the case of your hubby is the date he became a Canadian citizen.
Em and Atticus, the fact that they think someone who relinquished is still a citizen until they deign to you a CLN is more than a bit worrisome. Especially since traveling on a US passport would effectively negate a relinquishment, right? You are supposed to act like a non-American/just a Canadian from the point of the relinquishing act forward.
I will hopefully commit my relinquishing act on Canada Day (fingers crossed that I get invited to that oath ceremony) and will be traveling on my Canadian passport when I visit family in August. They can suck it. The law – their law – says that we aren’t Americans going forward from a purposefully relinquishing act and as far as I know there is no current US law requiring relinquishers to even obtain a CLN (though most of us will b/c it is prudent).
So really, aren’t they trying to treat relinquishers the same as renunciants with this little “you are still a USC” bullshit? We aren’t the same.
FATCA is really not the only issue we former Americans have with the land of our birth. They seem content to play fast and loose with their interpretations of many things. This “you haven’t relinquished until we say you have” thing is little different from their refusal to clarify if foreign born duals have to make a formal claim to USC in order to be considered one legally.
What we really need is a lawyer who can spell things out for us and that we can quote to the office minions at the consulates and at US Customs because I think they are playing games and benefiting only from our lack of legal clarity.
@ AtticusInCanada
Did you get the interim letter from the Toronto consulate or from the DOS in DC after your phone call to them? My husband keeps thinking the date of his relinquishment is the date of his citizenship ceremony (2013) because that was his “relinquishing act”. I think it might be the date of his relinquishment appointment at the US consulate (2014) because that is when he signed his “relinquishing statement”. It’s critical to know which it is for doing the final filings. Anyway he sent in a request for a filing extension to October 15th for his 2013 1040 and according to a Hodgen’s opinion (apparently based on 8854 IRS instructions) it appears that also extends his 8854 deadline. He’ll do a FBAR up to the end of 2013 before June 30th just to be safe (hopefully he’ll be able to navigate through the e-file system safely).
He’s going to try e-mailing the consulate on Monday (they are closed on Friday) to see if he can get something in e-mail writing to tell him what exactly is his date of relinquishment for final filing purposes. Now we both get to be anxious that his CLN won’t arrive before October 15th. Sometimes I think we’ll get this all settled for him and sometimes I think not. There are tricky decisions to be made and no place to get definitive advice. Uncertainty is the perfect mechanism to keep people under state control and the US gov’t has become a master of this dirty trick. The Cons have adopted the concept too by embracing the ignominious IGA.
@ Em,
Always good to something in writing from the consulate because it’s important. In the meantime, this may shed some light on it.
*****
Re: Citizenship (except IRS)
Your husband’s date of relinquishment of US citizenship is the date of his relinquishing act, which occurred at the Canadian citizenship ceremony. (Say it was October 1st, 2013).
His CLN will read something like this. I bolded the words that appear on all CLNs and the light type is what the consulate fills in.
“… That: he (The action causing expatriation should be set forth succinctly.)
naturalized as a Canadian with the intent to relinquish.
That: said expatriating act was performed voluntarily with the intent to relinquish United States citizenship;
That: he thereby expatriated himself on (Date) 10-01-2013 under the provisions of Section” INA 349(a)(1) of … (The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 as amended).”
*****
Re: IRS
But IRS considers the key date to be the day he signed the papers at the consulate per 26 USC 877A(g) 4(B)
“A citizen shall be treated as relinquishing his United States citizenship on the earliest of …
(B) the date the individual furnishes to the United States Department of State a signed statement of voluntary relinquishment of United States nationality confirming the performance of an act of expatriation specified in paragraph (1), (2), (3), or (4) of section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481 (a)(1)–(4)),”
@ pacifica777
Thank you. Now THAT’S a whole lot clearer to me. Looks like my husband has until June 15th 2015 then to complete the emancipation process. I’ll show him your comment and that should convince him. I’m still sticking to that uncertainty theory though (not my own, I read about it ages ago). If USCIS and IRS procedures were compatible and intuitive then there would be no problem, but they are not, and that seems a deliberate ploy to keep people off balance and therefore under control. We can never get too threatening to the establishment if they keep us bewildered and totally occupied doing busy work and jumping through their ever changing hoops.
I think the confusion comes because State still considers you American until the CLN arrives but, IRS considers the day you went in and did the “relinquishing act” to be the date you use to judge final filings. It’s not co ordinated between the two.
So yes, if you relinquish State still considers you American until your case goes through and you get the CLN. I wish I’d been told that the day I was in there, BUT it didn’t affect when I filed my 8854. Confusing enough?
At any rate State issued my interim letter which was emailed to me. I first asked for one in March and didn’t get one then but, this time I did so I can use it as an official statement that I have a case pending and show my Canadian passport as per their instructions this morning. Mine looks pretty much like the example Em posted.
All of this seems so convoluted it’s a miracle anybody can weave through the corn maize including the people who work on this daily.
We’re the new ones to test out these waters in the first few years. I think in future years this process will probably be more co ordinated and simple. One can only hope.
@Atticus, I’m confused. Why did you file if you relinquished as opposed to renounced?
@Whitekat, I’m not sure what you mean but, I filed everything I was supposed to and some things I didn’t truly have to because I need to be totally clean and free of this. I frequently have to travel there for family reasons and I cannot take the risk that I was not out and done and on the books as free and clear. Filed five years of tax forms four of which I didn’t even meet the requirement to have to file. Six years of FBARS most of which were not required of me and after January as per the IRS advice filed 8854 when the new form became available. Now I’m done all that filing and as soon as my CLN arrives I’m done with this. I can travel as any other Canadian citizen without the worry and hanging fire over my head that I do not need. They cannot say I did not give them the appropriate amount of forms. In one year I had an inheritance so wanted to show that isn’t my usual amount that comes to me at all.
I owed them nothing. In fact they owed me six hundred dollars which I did not claim since to do so would put me in the “High Risk” category. I’m anxious to move on with my life and have this over with as it has dragged on for years, cost way too much money, untold anxiety and a crazy amount of reading and hoop jumping. There are other far more pressing matters in my life and if this was to be then I want it off my back so I can address and fully participate in my actual life!