Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2

US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2

Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.

(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.)  Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”

This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.

Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.

Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).

This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation.  They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.

Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database.  Your input will definitely help others.

1,470 thoughts on “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2”

  1. @Canadian
    Which Consulate are you renouncing at? It would be useful for others to know which one is giving this relatively speedy service.

  2. Canadian,

    If you are going to attempt to claim a relinquishment, you want them to know that. They should then send you the requisite forms to fill out for that process. Be clear on the differences between claiming a past relinquishment and going in for renunciation of your US citizenship.

  4. I finally received my Notice to Appear to take the Oath of Citizenship for March 2014. I started the process June 2011. I am now compliant as far as US Tax Returns & FBAR’s (Yikes!). At my citizenship interview I was told by the agent that I could apply for a Canadian Passport as soon as I received the notice to appear. The instructions attached to the Notice, indicate that I need to wait until after the ceremony to apply. Does anybody know if I can apply prior to the ceremony?
    It is my intent to relinquish US Citizenship, do I have to wait for the ceremony before I request an appointment & complete the documentation. From the comments on this site I was prepared to drive to Calgary, but it appears that Vancouver has cleaned up it’s act. Is Calgary still more efficient? I want this process completed quickly & efficiently. Your help is appreciated.

  5. I filed the necessary paperwork for relinquishment in Calgary in mid-July of 2013 and received the CLN last month (January 2014). The document that is crucial to this procedure is DS-4079 (Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship); it is available at the following site: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf. This questionnaire must be filled out with great care and the required supporting documentation must be presented at the consular appointment. I had some difficulty convincing the officials I talked to that I wanted to relinquish, *not* renounce. I had a strong impression that they had not encountered such a case before. There is no fee for this service.

  6. @M.C. Marino, US consular officials are special breed of Neanderthal–smaller than Sasquatch but with much smaller brain capacity. They’ve seen people come in and say they’ve relinquished at Calgary multiple times. They are fixated, however, on collecting $450. Perhaps they are struck with transient global amnesia (see spacedoc.com).

  7. @Petros I should also have mentioned that my CLN is back-dated to the date on which I became a Canadian citizen, which was in 1978. When I took the oath of allegiance to the Crown I had the intent to end my US citizenship and believed that, as a matter of course, it was sufficient to terminate my US citizenship. (How not, since the US oath, then and now, requires exclusive, unconditional allegiance to the US? How can a person be bound by both at the same time?) I have done nothing since to contradict that intent.

  8. Thanks pukekonz that’s helpful info.

    I was born in the US to an Aussie and a Kiwi. We left when I was 18 months old and I’ve never been back, never voted in the US, never travelled on a US passport. And today I got an email from the nearest IRS (in Beijing!) saying I needed to file three years of tax and six years of bank forms. For which I first of all need a Social Security Number!

    This is insane.

  10. Sounds like phishing

    Here’s a partial quote from the IRS website. Full page at this link.

    The IRS does not initiate taxpayer communications through e-mail and won’t send a message about your tax account. If you receive an e-mail from someone claiming to be the IRS or directing you to an IRS site:

    • Do not reply to the message.

    • Do not open any attachments. Attachments may contain malicious code that will infect your computer.

    • Do not click on any links. If you clicked on links in a suspicious e-mail or phishing website and entered confidential information, visit the IRS website and enter the search term ‘identity theft’ for more information and resources to help.

  11. Of course. Thanks for your insight, Pacifica. We should all make sure we are aware that we can get such an email! Thanks for the warning.

  12. I wrote to them first after seeing the news here (4th Feb, Radio NZ) about the US putting the squeeze on NZ to furnish bank details for FBAR compliance. Yeah *facepalm* I should have kept off the radar.

  13. Greetings,

    I was born in the US from french father and swedish mother so I have the three nationalities.
    In the early 90’s, I did my military service in the French Army as a commanding officer (2nd Lieutenant), which implied taking a oath to France.
    At the end of service, I was nominated Officer in Reserve under a “Decret du President de la Republique” published in the “Journal Officiel” (where all laws and decrees come into life).
    Such nomination is for life.

    I was not aware that this was a relinquishing act so I renewed my US passport afterwards and used it to travel to the US once. It’s expired now.

    If I bring this fact to the US Consulate, will they accept my demand ?
    Or will they insist that despite taking an oath to France and being a french commanding officer in reserve, I’m still a US citizen ?

    Best regards,

  14. @Minimadik

    Just a quick response, and there are others that are better at answering the question, but suggest that you take some time to read back through the various comments. You should still be able to relinquish and that one use of a passport should NOT be used against you. I am pretty sure I have heard others have similar issues but were able to relinquish. But read up…

    If you use this link, you can start reading at the beginning of the blog comments.. page 1. 🙂

    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/comment-page-1/

  15. @Anne..

    What that email described is the “streamlined OVDP” Supposedly it is for those who only owe Taxes <$1,500 and are considered low risk. However, we hearing that they are processing 'U.S' Persons with amounts higher than that.

    If you go to Archives, at the link above, or I have put it below here for you, and do a "Find" CTRL F on Streamlined, you will find various discussions about this program and whether or not it is something for you.

    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/blog-archive/

    As for an email from Beijing from the IRS, I highly doubt it. I have NEVER had them be willing to send me an email in my years of dealing with them. 🙂

  16. @Minimadik, you can certainly make a case for relinquishment. As Just Me says, a single use of a US passport subsequent to your relinquishing act won’t be the sole deciding factor. Other things like how close your ties are to the US, whether you’ve ever voted in US elections, have paid/continue to pay US taxes, own property there, etc, all have a bearing. This is the form used to assess a relinquishment application:

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf

  17. Question for those of you who are thinking about renouncing and then doing tax forms. If you don’t already have a SSN, you might want to think ahead of time about how you are going to deal with the requirement to file 5 years of tax forms. Requires a SSN which you can’t get after you renounce, or a TIN (which does not seem to be the easiest thing to get either, you appear to have to send them all sorts of original or notarized documents)
    Maybe the consulates will start taking applications for SSN’s at the renunciation meeting (before the actual renunciation, of course) That would be REALLY weird, but otherwise it sets up a problem.

  18. Well, there is this info in the 8854 instructions:

    “Identifying number.
    Generally, this number is your U.S. social security number. An incorrect or missing identifying number may result in a continued obligation to file U.S. tax returns as a citizen or resident of the United States for persons expatriating after June 3, 2004, and before June 17, 2008, and/or a penalty of $10,000. If you were never issued a social security number, please attach a statement explaining the reason.”

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
    page 4

    What the IRS will do about it after that is anyone’s guess.

    I assume it’s still relevant as there isn’t any different info for those who expatriated in 2013 and who may not have an SSN. And of course anyone thinking of filing forward would need to apply for the SSN I think. But if you want to enter Streamlined and file the back 5 years a statement of why you don’t have an SSN looks like it might suffice. Any other views/opinions on whether this would be the case?

  19. My wife and I are trying to get direction/understanding on how to get a final answer to our situation. I’ve been Googling/searching this site for sometime now, and was hoping to find out what the last step, if any, to do. I’m Canadian born, but my wife was born in the US and grew up in the US. Her mother is US and father is Cdn. A month after her 18th birthday, she came to Canada, and if I have the terminology correct, “naturalized” her Cdn citizenship and got a citizenship card (YP85). This was in the summer of 1984 (prior to the changes in the US Immigration Act that state “with the intension…”). From that time forward, she has travelled as a Cdn, has a SIN, does not have a social security number, applied for Nexus as a Cdn and has no wish to return to the USA. We also have 4 children (we wonder what their status is). If they turn 18 without exercising their right to apply for US citizenship, are they still considered US citizens. Any advice/links would be appreciated. This site is great for information on this. Thanks.

  20. Frustrated. Were your children registered with a US consulate? If so you would have a copy of ‘Consular Report of Birth Abroad’ FS 240. If yes, they can be American if they choose to be. If they don’t choose to be, its not so clear but many of us believe that it is not a done deal.
    If not registered, they can still obtain citizenship if they choose but it would not be straightforward.

  21. @ Frustrated in Canada
    Your wife is in a very good position. She should probably get a copy of the Canadian citizenship oath in 1984 from Access to Information. Then she can reaffirm her relinquishment at a US consulate (no fee, no oath, just some paperwork — a questionnaire and form DS 4079). She would then receive a back-dated CLN (to satisfy any bank inquisition). She does not need to file anything with the IRS (no SS number needed obviously). Your children are Canadian since I presume they were born after your wife became a Canadian. If I’m wrong about this other Brockers who are better at this kind of advice than I am will set things straight.

  22. http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/abroad/events-and-records/birth.html

    http://toronto.usconsulate.gov/service/passports-and-citizenship.html

    http://toronto.usconsulate.gov/service/consular-report-of-birth-abroad.html

    The following information summarizes key provisions of U.S. law regarding the transmission of citizenship by a U.S. citizen parent or parents to their children born in wedlock outside the United States. (Please note that separate transmission requirements apply for children born outside of wedlock. Contact the U.S. Embassy or Consulate nearest you for further information if this is the case.)

    If both parents were U.S. citizens when your child was born, he/she may have acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, if at least one parent resided in the USA prior to the child’s birth.
    If your child was born on or after 11/14/86, and only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of the child’s birth, the child may have acquired U.S. citizenship at birth if the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the USA for periods totaling five years prior to the child’s birth, at least two of which were after their 14th birthday.
    If a child was adopted by an American citizen(s), or if the U.S. citizen parent has not met the physical presence requirement, then the child cannot be issued a Consular Report of Birth Abroad. Please refer to the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 for further information on how to document your child as an American Citizen.

    Checklist

    Child’s official long-form provincial birth record, showing complete information on the parents. The child’s certificate of birth is not always acceptable.
    Evidence of U.S. Citizenship of Parent(s) at Time of the Child’s Birth. U.S. Passport; Certificate of Citizenship/Naturalization; Consular Report of Birth Abroad; or a U.S. Birth Certificate bearing the impression seal of the Vital Records Office and the date of filing.
    Proof of parents’ identity: Photo ID.
    Original civil marriage certificate of parents.
    Documentary evidence of termination of any previous marriages of either parent (i.e. divorce decree, death certificate, etc.), if applicable.
    In some cases the U.S. citizen parent may be asked to complete an Affidavit of Parentage and Physical Presence at the time of Application.
    Previous CRBAs for other children in the family.
    Evidence of physical presence of parent(s) in the U.S. Some examples of evidence of physical presence may include accredited school and university transcripts, employment records, utility bills, etc. Acceptance of this evidence will be at the discretion of the consular officer, and depending on the circumstances, the consular officer may ask for additional material.
    Complete Form DS-2029 (50KB PDF). Do not sign.
    If you wish to apply for the child’s passport, the child must appear in person with the parents signing. Submit one color photograph. The photo must be recent (taken within the past six months), identical, 2 inches x 2 inches; Full face, on a plain, light (white or off-white) background. Vending machine photographs are not acceptable. You will also need to complete the appropriate passport application form.
    Fees: US$100 for the Report of Birth. If you also wish to apply for a passport, that fee is US$105 for a five-year passport for persons under the age of 16 or $135 for children over age Payment may be made by cash, U.S. dollar bank or postal money order, or credit card (Visa or MasterCard only). The Consulate DOES NOT accept debit cards or personal checks. Please note that your credit card will be charged in U.S. funds.
    Prepaid, Canada Post Xpresspost envelope with “signature sticker.” Please DO NOT purchase the “Pack” size envelope. Only one envelope per family or group is required. Put your information in both the “To” and “From” sections. We can only return issued reports of birth by mail to an Ontario address.

    Applicant over age 18, who wish to apply for U.S. citizenship and resides in Ontario, will use the DS-11 form to apply for a passport. The applicant must make a birth abroad appointment and apply in person with us at the consulate, bringing the above documents (but not the DS-2029). The American citizen parent should accompany the applicant to their appointment and fill out an Affidavit of Parentage and Physical Presence (PDF 133K) If the American citizen parent is deceased, the applicant should bring the original death certificate. The same proof of the parent(s)’ required physical presence in the U.S. before the child’s birth must be submitted.

    If a U.S. Citizen Parent Cannot Transmit Citizenship to a Child Born Abroad then that child may receive U.S. citizenship from a U.S. citizen grandparent by following these procedures, only within the U.S. and through U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. For reference, the State Department also maintains a website on intercountry adoptions.

  23. @very confused RE Citizenship oath.

    In preparation for arranging my Oath of Renunciation appointment, I just emailed to the consulate the required DS-4079 (Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship). One of the questions on this form is about the oath I took on becoming a Canadian, which I did in 1993.
    I looked this up on Wikipedia and copied that information. Apparently the wording has not changed since 1977. It reads (in the English version):

    I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.

    Wikipedia also provides the French version of this oath and a French affirmation wording.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Citizenship_%28Canada%29

    On another topic for IBS folks who are in the process NOW renouncing/relinquishing (so that your CLN probably would not be received from the State Dept prior to July 1, 2014): what are you doing to document this at your FFIs?

    I have thought about bringing to my Oath-appointment a simple letter with my name, the date and a statement that “On this date I have taken my Oath of Renunciation at a US consulate in front of a US consulate officer and that, according to US law, this IS the date of Renunciation of citizenship.” I probably would include in this statement that FFIs should accept this document (which I will ask the consulate immediately notarize) as a “temporary acknowledgement of US citizenship renunciation”.

    Cdn banks may not make definitive judgements about their client’s “US Person” status for a number of months but at least if this is on their records they should be willing to wait the 4-10 months until one gets the “Official CLN”.

    Anyone tried this? Or other ideas for us USC renunciates/relinquishers during the transition phase?

  24. My husband asked for and got an “interim letter” (by e-mail, the snail mail copy hasn’t arrived as promised) from the Calgary consulate. It will tide him over until his CLN arrives but it does state that he is a US person until that CLN arrives. He would use it to travel to the USA (doesn’t have a US passport now) and at the bank if it came to that but I really don’t expect immediate interrogations to be happening at the banks post July 1st. Most bank employees are still in the what the heck is FATCA phase.

  25. Thanks Em, that is encouraging.
    Can you share the full text of this “interim letter” the Calgary consulate provided? Perhaps I can incorporate some of the “acceptable diplomatic-speak” wording…..
    The travel-into-the-US could be an issue for me too; hadn’t thought of that yesterday.

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