2,818 thoughts on “Media and Blog Articles Open for Comments – Part 3 of 11 (Year 2016)”

1. @ Bubblebustin
   Well I used to see red everytime I saw her comments.
   @ Charl
   Oh yes, the Hunter. That man could not be broken in at all. I still shudder at the gravatar he used once — a photo of him in his undershirt.

2. Yeah, I remember having referred to the undershirt as a wife-beater, which I believe he took offence to.

3. @Deckard
   Reading your words felt good.
   I just had a visitor who is GERMAN and he said that he hates America. Who else hates America? I think the list is growing longer and longer.

4. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-18/business/os-irs-rule-foreigners-20120418_1_foreign-banks-florida-banks-deposits

   Over the objections of Florida lawmakers, the U.S. Treasury Department has issued a new rule that will force banks to disclose the identity of foreigners who deposit their money in America.

   The regulation — which represents a major shift in policy — goes into effect next January and has alarmed the entire Florida congressional delegation, which is concerned the requirement will prompt foreigners to move their money to countries that require less disclosure.

   Under FATCA, it will be very hard to find a country with less disclosure than the US.

   OTOH, it appears that the US is finally gearing up for the promised reciprocity.

5. Reddit & Hacker News have various threads on news articles about The List

   Current:
   https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/452o1b/delays_costs_mount_for_canadians_renouncing_us/
   https://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/comments/451ca9/why_expat_americans_are_giving_up_their_passports/
   https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11071749

   Day-old:
   https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/44xfqh/til_it_costs_2350_to_renounce_us_citizenship/
   https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitAmericansSay/comments/44xoxt/shit_americans_do_freedom_has_a_hefty_price_247/
   https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/44xqls/why_expat_americans_are_giving_up_their_passports/
   https://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/comments/44po7g/record_number_give_up_us_citizenship_green_cards/
   https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/44qqrm/record_number_of_americans_give_up_citizenship_as/
   https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/44qqqe/record_number_of_americans_give_up_citizenship_as/

6. @walt
   Well, maybe more precisely nationalists. The ones I met aren’t narcissistic, though: they’re wallflowers.
   @Charl
   TOM Hunter. I think he had lived in Russia (temporarily, of course) and was basing his entire view of U.S. persons abroad on what he saw there.
   @Polly
   I don’t hate the U.S., but its hostility towards its citizens abroad is infuriating.

7. @Karen

   This is old news… Florida & Texas Bankers’ Association went to court… not sure the outcomes… Texas stated they had tons of money moved out of their banking system already because of this… Money in the US is easy to hide… form a corp or something in another state… I think it was Nevada and some other states… Owners are anonymous… I don’t think criminals care if they are getting the best interest rates available… lots of way in the US to *hide* funds… real estate… art work…

8. Note the 2017 presidents budget no longer calls for reciprocity via reporting foreign ownership of US accounts.
   I thought in earlier budgets they had stuff about easing the burden on foreign born US citizens. Letting them renounce easily. I don’t see that either.
   Things I did see for ‘foreign’ are the usual tax inversion stuff repeated from last time. Also some changes to stop you escaping the NIIT.
   https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Overview

   Obviously Obama can’t do squat anyway.

9. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/delays-costs-mount-for-canadians-renouncing-us-citizenship/article28688026/comments/?ord=1
   Over a hundred comments now. I think the opposing comments are somewhat less prolific, less antagonistic and less ignorant than years gone by. Is that just wishful thinking?

10. @Neill
    Actually, a lot can get done in the dying days of a presidency. The accidentals do, at least, get a mention. This strikes me as rather late, since the FATCA letters are going out now. Still lets hope it doesn’t disappear again.
    p.164/182 “provide relief for certain accidental dual citizens” $63 million in 2017, $108 million in 2018.

    I thought that Calgary might like this one
    “the “Stand Stronger” Citizenship Campaign, which works to raise awareness about the rights and responsibilities of U.S. citizenship.” Maybe they’ll teach the kids about citizenship taxation.

11. That might be true, EmBee. It’s possible that the quality of information is more sympathetic to those affected, keeping more of the “make them pay their fair share” types at bay. Of course Erica could always show up at any moment!

12. Thanks, Publius, for thinking of this and my often stating that I / most of us couldn’t know if we never learned of US CBT in our US education. Unfortunately, the Stand Stronger Citizenship Campaign* is not about U.S. education curriculum, but that may be similar to the content of this new attempt to get more U.S. citizens from those permanent residents in the U.S.

    FACT SHEET: “Stand Stronger” Citizenship Awareness Campaign

    Initiative Promotes Citizenship among those who are Eligible 
    Watch “Stand Stronger” Video featuring President Obama HERE

    Since the beginning of his Administration, President Obama has made clear that we are stronger as a nation when we welcome immigrants and refugees into our communities and harness their entrepreneurial spirit. At its heart, America is and has always been a nation of immigrants. Immigrants and refugees contribute to our country’s social and cultural fabric, and are critical to our country’s continued economic prosperity.  Today, on Citizenship and Constitution Day, President Obama launched the “Stand Stronger” Citizenship Awareness Campaign, a project with nonprofit Civic Nation, to encourage eligible immigrants to take an important step in their American journey and commit to citizenship.  To launch this effort, the President released a video message to encourage eligible lawful permanent residents (LPRs) to commit to citizenship today.

    Some study materials for naturalization to become a U.S. citizen — in searches, no reference to *Citizenship-Based Taxation* requirements of U.S. citizenship.

    Video:   Becoming a U.S. Citizen: An Overview of the Naturalization Process

    Learn About the United States Quick Civics Lessons

    56. When is the last day you can send in federal income tax forms?*
    + April 15
    The last day to send in your federal income tax to the Internal Revenue Service is April 15 of each year. The Constitution gave the federal government the power to collect taxes. The federal government needs money to pay the nation’s debts and to defend and provide for the needs of the country. When the country was young, it was difficult to raise money from the 13 original states. The government began collecting income tax for the first time through the Revenue Act of 1861. This was only temporary. In 1894, a flat-rate federal income tax was enacted, but the Supreme Court said this was unconstitutional. Finally, in 1913, the 16th Amendment was ratified. It gave Congress the power to collect income taxes. Today, “taxable income” is money that is earned from wages, self-employment, tips, and the sale of property. The government uses these taxes to keep our country safe and secure. It also tries to cure and prevent diseases through research. In addition, the government uses these taxes to educate children and adults, and build and repair our roads and highways. Taxes are used to do these things and many more.

    100 Civics Questions and Answers with MP3 Audio (English version)

    Nothing about *U.S. citizenship-based taxation* but the person who will take the naturalization test does learn :

    61. Why did the colonists fight the British? Question 61 Audio (357KB MP3)

    • because of high taxes (taxation without representation)
    • because the British army stayed in their houses (boarding, quartering)
    • because they didn’t have self-government

13. The OECD CRS self-certification forms for individuals, controlling persons and entities:

    http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/intfinlaw/2016/02/oecd-crs-self-certification-tax-forms-now-available.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IntFinLaw+%28International+Financial+Law+Blog%29

14. A surprisingly sympathetic new article from David H. Lenok at WealthManagement.com:

    FATCA: Is the Juice Worth the Squeeze?
    http://wealthmanagement.com/high-net-worth/fatca-juice-worth-squeeze

15. To invest… will we have to submit a DNA sample also… so they can see if u have any US in your family tree?

    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/invest/how-mf-investors-can-provide-additional-kyc-information-for-fatca/crs-compliance/articleshow/49959072.cms

16. Record numbers of US citizens surrender their passports to avoid paying double tax
    Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/02/11/11/26/record-number-of-americans-giving-up-their-us-citizenships#B3gPz0aEKsJUODKB.99

17. This is not an article about CBT, but looks at effective strategies for changing people’s opinions on-line.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/10/how-to-change-someones-mind-according-to-science/?tid=sm_fb

    Key points:
    * The more respondents the better
    * Earlier responses matter more
    * If you don’t change someone’s mind in four exchanges, you will never change their mind.
    * Long, calm replies work best.
    * Specific examples are important.
    * Providing links to supporting material works well (perhaps the NTA’s reports?)
    * Most people cannot have their minds changed. People who use the word I and positive, calm language are the easiest to change. People who use we, anyone, certain, nothing, worst, best and negative language tend to be rigid.

    So, if you get your kicks arguing with the Tom Hunters of this world, fine, but keep in mind that such people aren’t going to change, so it may not be the best use of those life credit units.

18. @Deckard1138

    “Since the U.S. taxes its citizens on all income no matter from where it was derived, expats are effectively taxed twice: once by the government of the country in which they live and once by the U.S.”

    Some argue that that this isn’t true because there are measures in place that allow us to offset the tax we pay to the country where we live – but in fact we do start out double taxed since we must prove, often at great expense, that we are entitled to the limited measures available to us to offset that tax. Just as we are assumed to be criminals, terrorists and money launderers for having bank accounts where we live and must report them to the US Treasury Department and IRS under threat of ruinous penalties, we start from a position of liability.

    It’s beyond me how the US can reconcile its measures to reduce double taxation with CBT, when it must constantly expand what it exempts as income in order to avoid subjecting its citizens to double taxation – such as what it needs to do under the treaty in order for its citizens to avoid being exposed to US tax when investing in TFSA’s, RDSP’s and RESP’s. Without a move to RBT, the US will be forever playing “catch-up” in their treaties to fix the effects of double taxation – and only after the damage of double taxation has been done. How can that possibly be sustainable? Oh, I forgot it isn’t, as the renunciation numbers tell us.

19. @Tom Alciere

    Can you detect a slight shift in how this situation is being portrayed by the media? Renouncing US citizenship to avoid “double taxation” is a welcome contrast to doing it to avoid paying our “fair share”.

20. Great advice, Publius, but sometimes it’s all I do to not punch the computer screen.

21. @Bubblebustin: YES, I KNOW the feeling!!!! I walk around mumbling four letter words I didn’t even know I knew and remain surprised my keyboard is still intact. I can stay rather calm, emphasis on “rather”, through one or two exchanges then my brain explodes. (Watching oneself devolve from moderately mature, hopefully informative and factually calm to a name calling three year old is quite terrifying).

    For certain the more respondents the better. Wecall come at this from different angles and just maybe one style can resonate in situations better than others. Also one can start sounding like a lunatic when navigating the waters alone. I feel so much better when traveling with the support of my pack!!!

22. @Charl

    I hear you. Maybe they can create a new kind of mental illness for us and call it “taxation-related Tourette’s”, lol.

    Taking into account what Publius wrote, maybe the best thing to do would be to just walk away after the fourth or so exchange and instead maybe do something that makes us feel good.

23. @Bubble
    UNFORTUNATELY that “doing something that makes me feel good” is chocolate! I think an entire bag of cookies disappeared during the CNN battle.

    I now have CBT induced Tourett’s, obesity, bloody paws and a filthy house! (Not to mention rage induced psychosis…the least of my problems at the moment).

24. @Charl, Could be worse…could be wine (like moi) rather than chocolate and cookies that makes you feel good. While you were eating a whole bag of cookies and pounding the keyboard, I was drinking a whole bottle of wine and pounding the keyboard. Now I stay away from the assholes and the astroturfers. There was one guy, I forget his alias, who used to follow me around from article to article and tell me I was fat (how he determined this I do not know) and liked to call me the ‘unfu$%able WhiteKat’.

25. Am I the only one who is bothered by the comment I’ve quoted below, just posted at the G&M? I mean I think that the person is making a wise move with regard to their own personal circumstances, but she/he almost leaves the reader with the impression, that this whole FATCA hunt is really no big deal. It is a big deal! We shouldn’t have to hide. And not everyone’s situation is as easily solved as this person’s is. It is almost the type of comment that I would expect an astroturfer to write. Yes, I have become paranoid.

    app64228662 writes:

    As a dual citizen, I dislike FATCA and CBT (citizenship-based taxation) as much as the next person, but the reason I’m not doing anything about it is that I really don’t think it’s going have any impact on my life.

    I’m your classic “accidental American” – born to Canadian parents at school in the US, moved home as a small child. I did spend a few years south of the border working and studying, filed taxes when I lived there, then ignored my US citizenship and its various obligations once I returned to Canada.

    I’m not going to renounce. I’m not going to pay the US government $2350 to get rid of something I don’t want or need. I’m not going to file five years’ worth of tax forms to prove that I don’t owe them anything (or worse, prove that I do owe them something). I haven’t lived in the US for a quarter century and I intend never to return.

    The reason I’m not worried is that the US doesn’t have much evidence of my existence. It doesn’t know where I live now, and I’m not about to tell it.

    I’m not worried about FATCA because it’s pretty easy to lie to your bank. If you open a new account and they ask if you’re a US citizen, say no. If they want to see your birth certificate or want you to sign a W-8 form, take your business to a FATCA-exempt credit union – there’s quite a few of them now. I refused to discuss citizenship when asked by the investment firm who handles my RRSPs; when they insisted, I lied to them. That’s the last I’ve heard of it.

    In the unlikely event that a dual citizen does find themselves ratted out by their bank, and the US actually manages to find them and determine that money is owed, there’s no way for the US government to collect taxes or penalties – provided one does not have US assets of course. They can’t touch your money in Canada. You can voluntarily send it to them, but that would be foolish.

    I’m not worried about inheritance or estates because those assets will all be in Canada, so how can the US touch them, and how would the US know about them if I said nothing? I’m not worried about capital gains on the sale of my home because how would the US know that I’ve sold the home if I don’t tell them – reporting is entirely voluntary.

    It is scary to contemplate people losing retirement savings or being taxed on things that aren’t taxable in Canada, but that will only happen if you cooperate and attempt to be compliant. If you keep your money out of the US and ignore the US, the US can’t really do much about it.

    The only potential issue is travel to the US. If you have a US birthplace, you’re a US citizen (with very few exceptions). US citizens must use US passports to enter the country, but that law has not been enforced. Obtaining a US passport means giving the US your address. I had a US passport long ago, but now I travel on my Canadian passport, and only once have I been told to renew my US passport based on birthplace. For now it seems to work, but that may change.

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