How to Renounce/Relinquish
Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart
Department of State Forms, Procedure Manuals, and Contact Info
Expatriation Date, Form 8854 & Certificate of Loss of Nationality
Important if Relinquishing Act Prior to June 4, 2004
Very important for pre-2004 relinqishers to read, the posts/threads at this link also contain some useful information for those who relinquished after June 4, 2004, or are planning to do so.
Interactions between Department of State and IRS regarding Renunciation/Relinquishment
You can renounce (or apply for a relinquishment-based CLN) if you have not filed taxes. Here’s some general information, with source links, relating to that and the relation between DoS and IRS in the context of renunciation/relinquishment.
IRS Ruling on Relinquishment and Retroactivity, 92-109
Relinquishment and Renunciation Data
The actual “relinquishment and renunciation data” was integrated into the Appendix of the Consulate Report Directory in 2013 (tracking chart of people’s wait times from booking to consulate appointment to receipt of CLN) and is continually updated there. The thread itself , however, has remained open and popular.
Relinquishment by Persons-Born-Dual or Who Naturalised in a Foreign Country as a Minor
Although a person who is already a citizen obviously can’t relinquish by naturalisation, any adult can relinquish by taking employment with a foreign government (or its subdivisions) or by joining the military.
Relinquishment by Naturalisation (INA, s. 349(a)(1)) by Person Born in US to Canadian parents: Cheryl’s Story. Relinquishing act (naturalisation) was her registering her birth abroad with the Canadian government in 1977 when she was an adult.
Cheryl’s detailed story contains information of particular interest to Canadians and general information which may also be useful to those of other countries and those with slightly different fact sets as well.
Reports by Persons who Relinquished US Citizenship Upon Taking Government Employment, Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a)(4)(A)
Self-Documented Relinquishment
The relinquishing act itself causes the citizenship loss. A CLN provides proof of it, but it’s not the only way to prove it.
Estate Matters for Former US Citizens
How the 877A Exit Tax May Apply to your Canadian Assets
This is a series of nine posts on different aspects of the exit tax. Much of it is relevant to persons in all countries.
Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin
The title highlights Dublin, but this post contains a chart of links to consulate websites’ and their info re renunciation appointments around the world, as well as ongoing discussion of the topic.
I don’t know where to put this information about the problems with arranging and proving timely filed delivery of Form 8854 to the prescribed addresses and obtaining ironclad proof of delivery – when using UPS or FedEx rather than the US Postal Service (one copy accompanies the last return, but a second copy goes to another address, one goes to Austin Texas, and the other to a Philadelphia PO box), but as it addresses an important point that I haven’t seen anywhere else, I am placing them here (must be read together):
http://hodgen.com/you-cant-file-form-8854-via-fedex-or-ups/
http://hodgen.com/filing-form-8854-by-fedex-a-success-story/
‘Filing Form 8854 by FedEx–A Success Story’
Phil Hodgen explains the problems involved.
I have just started to work on relinquishing my american citizenship. As I went through my paperwork I noticed my Canadian Citizen paper work is dated N/A for when I took oath. I was issued my Canadian Citizen Certificate when I was 25 after living in Canada since I was around 2. The Canadian office decided not to date when I became a citizen because they believed i became avcitizen as a child and I had no other proof.
How will this effect my efforts in relinquishing?
Also, I have worked for the City of Burnaby (municipal government) since 1997.
@condie
You should repost your questions on the section
“Ask your questions about renunciation and relinquishment” section found on the rt hand side of the page.
Your post may be missed here. There are many Canadians who can answer it.
Section 350 of Law 1952 repealed in 1978 .
I was born, by accident 1n 1939, a dual citizen when my father ,non US citizen, was attached to his country´s Consulate .We left the US and have never lived there. In 1966 ,at the age of 27 I needed to travel to the US and requested a VISA and was told that since I was born in the US and my father had not been acredited as a foreing diplomat I was entitled to a US Passport which I accepted ,not knowing US tax Laws.After the age of 22 (1961)(and before also) I lived for more tan three years in my other country(not US),voted in presidential elections,obtained my social security in this country and did not make the oath to the USA in those three years.My passport was given in 1967.¿ Did I loose my US nationality at 25 years? which the Us Consulate did not consider.
Comments would be gratly appreciated
@Daniel Alfaro
I’m not a lawyer, but three facts stand out in your story.
1. Section 350 of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (still in effect when you were 22 to 25 years old) is clear that you lost your American citizenship when you turned 25.
Download the PDF at:
http://library.uwb.edu/guides/usimmigration/1952_immigration_and_nationality_act.html
2. State Dept. people who gave you a passport were ignorant of U.S. law and/or your circumstances, and were wrong.
3. You still have today’s problem that you have a U.S. place of birth and no Certificate of Loss of Nationality (which you should be entitled to). But you might have to apply for and fight for the CLN because consular officers these days seem to be instructed to ignore how the law was years ago (see the Foreign Affairs Manuals. I think it’s FAM7). Yours would probably be a good CLN test case for a citizenship court.
Good luck.
@ Daniel and Shovel,
Close. These manuals are at 7 FAM 1200. There’s 9 manuals and several appendices, all accessible at that link (but not necessary to read all, as some deal with particular situations that are not relevant to all people).
Thank you shovel & pacifica 777 . Your comments are most appreciated and I hope this will lead me to end
the bureaucratic slavery
Pls. does anyone have refference of a good inmigration lawer in Washington DC ,
Regards
I am placing this comment here where *I want out* might get answers to questions: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/02/06/perhaps-after-reading-this-you-could-suggest-a-title-for-this-post/comment-page-10/#comment-7192784
I want out says
February 11, 2016 at 10:37 am
This is a harrowing read. My thoughts go out to J’s family. I feel it
is distaceful of me to use the story’s comment field to ask questions
about my own situation, so I do apologize in advance for that. I will
ask a few, if that is OK – otherwise I am afraid I will be another J
in the future. I’m completely breaking down over this, and can really
relate to how he felt.
Below follows a few paragraphs of backstory. Those who do not have
time to read all of this, but may have something to say regarding my
questions, are kindly asked to just skip down to those.
The short version of my story is that I am a Scandinavian who is also
an accidental American. I didn’t know of my US citizenship until
ca. 2010 (I forget if it was 2009 or 2010). I was significantly older
than 18 at the time, and so the “get out before 18.5″ rule wouldn’t
have helped me. The initial “hey, I’m a US citizen – how interesting”
was followed by many sleepless nights and countless working days lost
worrying myself to death and reading tax regulations. At the time
there was a system in place (not the OVDI) where people in a similar
situation were invited to file a certain number of years of
back-returns and FBARs and explain why they had not filed before, so I
did that to the best of my ability. Since then I have filed 1040s,
2555s and FBARs every year to the very best of my ability. I *hope* I
did everything right. I tried as best I could to not let the worry
ruin my daily life. My long term goal was getting rid of the
citizenship, since I didn’t have any feeling of attachment to it
anyway.
It all came to the front of my mind again now. I recently moved
(temporarily) from my home country to Switzerland for a research job,
and went to a random bank to open a salary account. It was one of the
weirdest experiences of my life. For about 15 minutes I and the bank
employee had exactly the kind of fake-nice conversation you would
expect to have in that situation. At the very end of the process, I
was asked – with a tone that expected to get a “no” and to move on
quickly, and with an apology of “we have to ask this now” – if also I
hold US citizenship. I said that as a matter of fact, yes, I do. The
mood changed as abruptly as if had contracted the bubonic plague there
and then. The bank employee shoved all the papers back at me, saying
“I’m sorry, we cannot take you as a customer, have a good day”. I
tried to ask what was going on, and after a lot of back and forth and
language confusion, it was made clear that only if I produce an IRS
declaration that I am straight and level in their book can I *apply*
to the higher-ups in the bank to have an account opened. This is
insane. I know it is an unfair comparison, but I felt like I (as a
straight white guy) just had my first taste of discrimination.
After some discussion with HR at work, who incidentally actually
suggested I lie to the bank, I was told that possibly UBS might have a
“special system” for tainted people like me, and that I can possibly
open an account there. (Question: Does this seem fishy? Does it seem
like something I should avoid to stay clear of trouble? HR can
probably be convinced to pay me to my Scandinavian account, but of
course that’s not exactly practical.)
The story above is not the essence of my post. The story above is what
brought this whole nightmare to the front of my head again. And the
realization that I cannot go on living like this. I need to try to
take steps towards renounciation. As with other matters, the Isaac
Brock Society web pages are full of information, but it can sometimes
be hard to get a good overview. I therefore hope you can forgive me if
I ask some questions that have probably be asked a million times
before.
QUESTIONS
1: What should be my first steps towards renouncing? My
financial situation is hopefully not too complicated (if such a thing
exists in this context): I have had ordinary salaried work in
Scandinavia for the past 5 years. The salary has always been below the
FEIE limit, and every year (with one exception, see Q 2) my IRS
filings have been income declarations + FEIE + my bank accounts’
interests (always too low to generate US tax). I own a (mortgaged)
home in Scandinavia. I have no money, accounts, propety or income in
the US.
2: In 2014, my Scandinavian employer sent me to visit a US
university for about half the year. I was paid (and thus taxed) at
home, not by any US entity. When filing for 2014, I understood the
rules to mean that I could only take the FEIE for the (approx.) half
of my salary earned while I was not in the US. So I used a foreign tax
credit for the other half. I believe I messed up my calculations, and
the IRS in the fall of 2015 sent me a notice showing a significant
(but not devastating) tax owed. I believe I figured out my mistake,
and promptly filed a 1040X to correct it. Recently I phoned them up to
hear about the status of that. I was told that they “have a lot of
work to do at the moment”, and that it “might take about 16 weeks from
today”. What will such an unfinished business mean for renouncing
citizenship? Is there anything I can do? I am even considering
just paying the original notice – it’s comparable in size to
expatriation fee.
3: When can I expect the process to be over? Supposing
the embassy in my home country doesn’t have a huge wait, how long
after the physical process there can I hope to be free?
4: What is my legal (and tax) status between renounciation
and the process being done? What happens if I travel to the US?
5: If I manage to do the renounciation this year, then I will
probably still be working in and taxing to Switzerland at the date of
renounciation. Do you suspect that thus filling out “country of tax
residence” on form 8854 as suddenly being different from my mailing
address and usual contry of taxation will cause me problems?
6: Should I get help with this? If so, how do I even
start? What’s a ballpark estimate of how much it’d cost? I’m not at
all a rich person – even the ridiculous expatriation fee is going to
sting.
Thank you so much for helping to restore my sanity.
I want out: Your first step is to decide whether you need to renounce or whether you can live with the US taint.
Assuming you decide to renounce, don’t wait. For your peace of mind make an appointment at the nearest consulate ASAP. There is no reason to delay. In Toronto the wait time for an appointment is a year!.
2. No particular reason to pay the amount of the original notice. In due course your amended return will be processed. The time that takes has no bearing on your renunciation. As some of us like to say they (the IRS) haven’t the staff to deal with the work they have been given. Obamacare and FATCA were piled on to taxes and the budget was reduced. Don’t fret over your 2014 return. You have done your best and you are tax compliant. You are not a tax dodger so you are not a priority for them.
3. Assuming there isn’t a long wait, you are no longer a US person the day you renounce. However there will be a delay in receiving your CLN. The delay might be 6 months or more. In the meantime all you can do is tell the bank you are no longer a US person but that your CLN is in the works. By April 15 of the following year (2017) you are supposed to file form 8854 and a 1040 for the part of 2016 that you were still considered American. That is a whole different subject best kept for another day. Phil Hodgen has extensive coverage of this issue. Of importance for now is that you are up to date with your filings so you can move forward and when the time comes you can fill in the 8854 with the crucial statement that you have ‘fulfilled your tax obligations for the 5 preceding years ‘
4 You can travel to the US on your Scandinavian passport. Take a copy of the renunciation fee receipt with you. I have no idea what a Swiss bank might do.
5.No reason why. Remember at all times that they haven’t the resources or particular interest to deal with you.
6. Help with this? Only you can say. You’ve managed so far. If you have enough time and little money, you can do it yourself. You can only do your best. If you want a cost estimate, you could contact http://www.americansoverseas.org They are a referral service. Perhaps they only refer to expensive accountants but you can certainly ask.
You will get through this. One step at a time. By catching up on filing you have already taken many steps. You are more than halfway there. Action will reduce anxiety. Good luck
@PortlandPLC: Thank you for your reply, and above all for taking the
time to write it in a comforting way. I had no idea how emotionally
straining such a in-theory-rational matter would be, and how emotional
it has turned my otherwise quite rational self.
I have some follow-up questions:
The thing is, I’m still not 100% sure that the amended return for 2014
won’t come back with an amount due, or that there won’t be further
back-and-forths over that return. Would not having such a
back-and-forth going invalidate the crucial statement on the 8854, if
it is still ongoing at the time? But then again, that 8854 will only
be due in 2017, so maybe there’s enough time anyway. I just don’t
wanna set me up to become a covered expatriate over a little thing
like this.
Thank you, this is clarifying. So if I understand you correctly, even
if the CLN takes time, this is not an “application that is
being considered” and could come back with “no, your renounciation
lacks the following x y z to go through”? From the day I renounce, I
should be able to honestly tell any entity that asks that I am no
longer a US citizen, albeit for a while without evidence of that fact?
Am I correct in understanding that even though I still have to file
for the part of the year leading up to renounciation, I can consider
myself non-American for all purposes (including financial) for the
rest of the year? The day after renouncing, I can (for lack of a real
example) win the lottery in my country without it being the business
of the IRS?
I have heard rumors that people who have renounced are subject to
special rules, for example needing visas even if coming from Visa
Waiver countries – essentially meaning we’re to be treated as “extra
foreign”. Have you heard anything about this?
This is indeed what I try to think, but I guess I’m conditioned from
birth to think of suspicious things when somebody puts the words
“taxes” and “Switzerland” in the same sentence. Then again my 1040
would say quite clearly why I am here…
Moreover, it deeply worries me that “J” from this
horrid story also doesn’t seem to be the kind of person who’d be
attracting particular attention. He seemed like the kind of guy who
could just be told to file some years of backreturns and FBARs and get
on with his life…
Thanks for the link.
Thank you for your kind words. It’s weird how empowered action
actually makes me feel, and how powerless I feel before forcing myself
to take action.
I only wish my friend, who discovered he was in a similar situation as
me around the same time, hadn’t choosen complete inaction back
then. While I took the route of “let’s (freak out, and then) start
working through this”, he chose “I’ll pretend it’s not true”. I really
really hope the world doesn’t collapse on him. Only months go by
between meeting other Americans (accidental or “normal”) abroad who
have haven’t communicated with the IRS this decade, to whom FBAR
sounds like a chocolate, and who decide to keep on ignoring the
issue. Maybe they are doing the right thing, but I wouldn’t bet on it…
@ I want out,
Re:
Basically it’s a rubber stamp. The consulate checks out your documents and, at your appointment, has you read/sign the DS-4081 (statement of understanding of consequences) before you take the oath. If there’s a problem, they’ll let you know before going further. Then by signing the oath, you perform the relinquishing act right in front of a Dept of State officer, who signs at the bottom of the DS-4080 (renunciation oath) that you’ve made the oath in his/her presence. So, consider it a done deal.
When you book an appointment, they generally send a list of what documents and forms they require. More and more consulates seem to be requiring you send scans of your docs prior to your appointment, so if you are missing something it would most likely come to light before your appointment.
@pacifica777: Alright, that clears up a lot. Thanks 🙂
@ I want out,
You’re welcome!
Re:
Haven’t heard of any special entry rules, just the same as any other citizen of your country as far as I am aware.
People have been sharing their post-renunciation/relinquishment-entering-the-US experiences on this thread on Brock and also on a thread at Maple Sandbox.
I want out.
Re: 2014 return It doesn’t make a difference. You can honestly say you complied.
Legally they cannot refuse renunciation. The only grounds are if you would become stateless, if you are being coerced or if you are not competent.
Yes from the day after you renounce you are only liable for US tax on US source income.
J’s story is horrible. We don’t have all the facts. We are not psychiatrists. He must have been terribly alone.
The IRS processes 200 million returns a year.The work is done by computers. In your case they have no information to compare except for what you give them. You have nothing to fear.
If you wish further discussion, you can ask the moderators to give you my email address.
By the way, when I mentioned the referral service AmericansOverseas above I didn’t mean to endorse them. They are strongly biased toward complete compliance. Some of their answers are incorrect or incomplete. For example one of the FAQs is “can I travel to the US, or is that a risk” Their answer- ‘This is difficult to answer. More and more computer systems are being connected and there is always the possibility while entering the US that questions on your tax status could be asked. Traveling into the US on your other nationality passport (if you have one) is not allowed:’
We know that very very few dual citizens, if any, have had problems traveling on their other passport
@ I want out
You said:”I have heard rumors that people who have renounced are subject to
special rules, for example needing visas even if coming from Visa
Waiver countries – essentially meaning we’re to be treated as “extra
foreign”. Have you heard anything about this?”
I live in a Visa Waiver country (UK). I renounced in 2014 and went online to get my ESTA just like any other UK citizen a few weeks after my CLN arrived. I visited the US in 2015 using my UK passport. I had no problems entering. I was treated like anyone else from a Visa Waiver country as far as I could see. I was not asked to show my CLN (though I did bring it just in case).
@Verity: OK, thanks for sharing.
@PortlandPLC: I understand.
I really think the only thing left for me to do now is man up enough to book an embassy appointment. It’s such a strange feeling – I lived for so long not knowing about this citizenship, and even though I feel no ties to it is somehow hard to let it go. I guess it feels like burning a bridge, but it’s strange since I never knew of the bridge and felt fine.
My wife and I will be renouncing in slightly over two weeks. We have been told to bring a number of things including our Canadian Citizenship Certificates, U.S. Passports, and Canadian Passports, together with at “regional express envelope” so that “things may be returned.” Does this mean that our Canadian documents will be taken at the consulate and then returned with the CLN? It would be bad enough to have our Citizenship Documents out of our hands for that amount of time, but we are going to need our passports in October, and given the delay on CLN’s, it seems unlikely that we would get our Canadian passports back by then. Any information would be gratefully received.
Thank you.
@ Pilgrim7
Rest assured that they will Not keep your Canadian documents. They will only take photocopies and return them to you at the consulate. However, they will take your US passport. They will use your “return envelope” to send you your cancelled US passport and CLN (cheapskates make YOU pay for the increased security and the ability to track those important documents). Hoping all goes well and I hope you’ve read some of the consulate reports here at Brock (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/) to get a good sense of how your consulate appointment is likely to play out. Best wishes to you both!
Yeah, at US$2350 you’d think they could afford an envelope. I guess they just want to get in one final insult before you are out the door for good. Why am I not surprised? (Actually, maybe none of them are literate enough to reliably address an envelope. Canadian postal codes are really hard because they have letters as well as numbers.)
@ maz57
They’d probably love to give each renouncer a smack across the face with a blue latex glove at the end of the appointment but there’s that bullet proof glass in the way. Ah … sweet snark on a sunny Sunday afternoon … 😉
Pilgrim 7. I’m trying to discover the current wait time without much success. Would you mind telling me where you are renouncing and how long you waited for an appointment. Thanks .
Thank you for the comments. Ordinarily, I would not have thought it possible that they would take our Canadian passports, but we have to consider that we are dealing with a government which perpetrates a fraud to overcome the rule of law that requires law to be limited to the territorial boundaries of the legislating country. So, any irrational exercise of power is possible.
Thank again.