FATCA Discussion Thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Please ask your questions here about FATCA.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See FATCA Discussion Thread (Ask your questions) for earlier discussion.
@bubblebustin, now the rules are always changing but I did a post on this when the FATCA rules first came out: the CLN is the one text you can use to prove you are not a US citizen and the bank has no further FATCA obligations regarding the possessor of a CLN. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/02/11/is-a-certificate-of-loss-of-nationality-really-necessary-new-fatca-regulations-are-in-gobbledygook/
Actually, I was thinking about starting a fake CLN business. Any takers?
@Petros
I had that same thought..LOL The job I retired from was a Fraud Analyst….
Most people can not tell real from not real…..
The bank wouldn’t have to have the skill to authenticate the CLN, because the bank will probably want to C their A’s by just sending a photocopy of it to DOS for confirmation. The Empire will probably require it if they have any inkling that they’re being faked.
Rather than make fake CLN’s, I think we should start a post of “Convincing reasons why the bank should believe I’m not a USP”.
1. The dog ate my CLN.
Any other reasons?
2. Mine got held up by the Oka blockade.
Mine was accidentally dropped in the ice fishing hole.
…and why don’t US Certificates of Loss of Nationality have any identifying numbers on them? They could be easily copied into a product of the “criminal” entrepreneur we had here a few days ago:
I can’t get a CLN because I am not and never was a U.S. citizen and since my I-407 went into a black USCIS hole, I can’t prove anything to anybody at this point. This is all so surreal that now, even after I have pinched myself very hard, I’m not sure if I even exist. 🙁
@Em
I really don’t understand what happened to you. It has something to do with your Green card?
This is absurd.
@ northernstar
It’s all down below in the Profiles on Some Participants section. I don’t think of it as a green card. It WAS a kryptonite card. I sent it to USCIS and it disappeared — went POOF — so I did not get the applied for I-407 stamp of approval to acknowledge its return.
It is a nightmare. You would think our wonderful government would help you out. Do you have proof where you were during the time period that this card was lost?
IRS not fully ready for law against offshore tax evasion: watchdog
Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-rt-us-usa-tax-fatca-20131129,0,741647.story#ixzz2mdwXGL1v
No one here will be surprised by this. Probably the same guys working on this that gave us the ObamaCare Cockup. 🙂
I returned it in 2012 when I found out there was such a thing as an I-407 form. I had tucked the card away almost 20 years ago when I got back to Canada and forgot where it was. It took some searching to find the damn thing. At first I kept trying to contact USCIS to find out what they had done with my I-407 application (and the card included) but I got no response whatsoever. I gave up trying. I accept now that I am in limbo and I always will be.
@mettleman
mettleman wrote i have not renoucned and am not planning on because i can not afford to become tax compliant if i were to renounce
Mettleman you say you obtained your Canadian citizenship in 1980. At that time the US consulates were still telling people they irrevocably lost their US citizenship by becoming Canadian. If you have done nothing since then to show you still consider yourself a US citizen, you should be able to relinquish instead of renounce. Mettleman, please check out the relinquishment info links on the home page of IBS.
Note also that if you have a low bank account balance and nothing already showing a US origin in your bank records, you are unlikely to be asked for proof by your bank (current FATCA rules).
Also, even if you are reported to IRS, Canada does not enforce IRS claims for taxes or penalties through CRA or the courts. IRS can seize US assets. You may be in danger as well if you cross the border.
If you have assets in the States or need to make trips there, you will probably need to get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality, which does not require becoming tax compliant if you relinquish instead of renouncing (especially as an old relinquisher). Again, apparently the current situation.
If, as do some, you come to believe that FATCA procedures will eventually force every little account holder to prove he is not a US person, or if you believe that Canada is going to finally authorize the IRS to seize the assets of Canadian citizens in Canada, then you may want to begin the process of obtaining a CLN.
I am definitely not an expert, but have tried to repeat succinctly what I have learned from documentation on this site and from the kind answers of better informed people on these threads (Petros, Duke, Pacifica et al.), and I hope they will correct any misinformation.
Above all, stay tuned in to this site as the situation seems fluid (for instance a possible upcoming intergovernmental agreement, for bad or worse).
https://www.facebook.com/republicansoverseas/posts/208228726027597
A proposed RNC Resolution titled — Resolution to Repeal the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) has been drafted by the following Chief sponsor and co-sponsors:
Whereas, In 2010 Congress passed the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) in an effort to catch tax evaders; but this Act has inadvertently ensnared every United States Citizen living overseas due to its overzealous invasion of privacy and punitive taxation and enforcement;
Whereas, The United States is one of the only two countries in the world that taxes foreign income of its citizens living abroad who already pay taxes where they reside;
Whereas, FATCA creates enormous reporting burdens for American taxpayers living overseas and puts them a great risk for even the slightest innocent mistake;
Whereas, FATCA requires foreign financial institutions, to enter into an agreement with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to identify their U.S. account holders and to disclose the account holders’ names, taxpayer IDs, addresses, and the accounts’ balances, receipts, and withdrawals (sometimes in violation of foreign privacy laws);
Whereas, FATCA has resulted in Americans living and working overseas finding themselves, and their companies, shut out from access to banks, insurance loans and investment opportunities, as many foreign financial services providers have concluded that doing business with Americans is simply too much trouble thus decreasing America’s competitiveness overseas;
Whereas, FATCA’s primary mechanism for enforcing compliance of foreign financial institutions is a punitive withholding levy on U.S. assets, creating a strong incentive for foreign financial institutions to divest (or not invest) in U.S. assets, resulting in capital flight, hurting the U.S. economy;
Whereas, Time magazine reported a sevenfold increase in Americans renouncing U.S. citizenship between 2008 and 2011 and has attributed this at least in part to FATCA and another surge in renunciations in 2013 to record levels has been reported in the news media, with FATCA cited as a factor in the decision of many of the renunciants; and
Whereas, FATCA forces Americans living abroad to make a horribly unfair choice between renouncing their citizenship or abandoning their businesses abroad because foreign financial institutions won’t handle their transactions or accounts; therefore be it
RESOLVED, The Republican National Committee hereby presents this Resolution to each Member of Congress and urges the U.S. Congress to repeal FATCA and to allow those U.S. citizens who renounced their citizenship under FATCA to regain their citizenship;
RESOLVED, The Republican National Committee urges the IRS to cease inflicting damage on the United States and on the global financial system in an attempt to vindicate FATCA’s misguided approach to tax enforcement;
RESOLVED, The Republican National Committee by presenting this Resolution to each Member of Congress urges them to increase the competitiveness of Americans overseas and remove inappropriate invasions of American citizens’ privacy; and
RESOLVED, The Republican National Committee hereby presents this Resolution to each Ambassador and Representative from every foreign nation and warns them that the privacy rights of their own citizens are at risk due to reciprocal agreements.
Chief sponsor – Solomon Yue, Jr., Republican National Committeeman for Oregon
1st Co-sponsor – Carolyn McLarty, Republican National Committeewoman for Oklahoma
2nd Co-sponsor – Bruce Ash, Republican National Committeeman for Arizona
3rd Co-sponsor – Helen Van Etten, Republican National Committeewoman for Kansas
4th Co-sponsor – Roger Villere, Jr., State Chairman of Louisiana
5th Co-sponsor – Donna Cain, Republican National Committeewoman for Oregon
Additional co-sponsors will be added as more RNC members have an opportunity to review the resolution. It will be submitted to the RNC for consideration during its January Winter meeting in D.C.
@bubblebustin and all, re: ” I think we should start a post of “Convincing reasons why the bank should believe I’m not a USP”.
One stark reason is that the delay for those renouncing/relinquishing in Canada is currently described as 8-9 months.
@Mark Twain
That IS very good. I’m so glad that the RNC in its wording chose not to be partisan, and blames the IRS for the current state of affairs. FATCA’s devastation transcends party lines and any effort is best spent trying to rectify the situation, rather than blaming any particular leader or party when what we need is a unified voice – if we are to have any voice at all.
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Mark Twain,
Thanks for reporting this here. Hopefully this new REPUBLICANS OVERSEAS will have success with this resolution. I hope we hear that more Republican National Committee representatives sign on to this Resolution being presented to each Member of Congress.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/05/us-usa-tax-fatca-idUSBRE9B417Q20131205
‘IRS not fully ready for law against offshore tax evasion: watchdog’
WASHINGTON Thu Dec 5, 2013 5:20pm EST
…”The TIGTA report suggests FATCA should be delayed, said Michael Hirschfeld, chairman of the American Bar Association tax section and a lawyer at Dechert LLP. “This is more fuel for the fire to delay things,” he said.”
@bubblebustin, as I see it the Swiss banks aren’t going to be worried about whether former US citizens, i.e. those who have presented them with a CLN, are tax compliant on not. That’s not their job. It’s those bank clients who are still American they’ll be pushing to become tax compliant, if they’re not already.
This seems to be borne out by the fact I’ve heard nothing from UBS – who know I’ve renounced – about tax compliancy, while PostFinance – who don’t know about my renunciation yet – sent me a letter advising me to become tax compliant.
Seriously folks, the banks don’t care about helping the US, they just want to protect their own asses. If you provide a CLN and a W8-BEN to your bank, you are held liable that that information is correct, not the bank. That’s all they need, and there is no reason for them to question its authenticity.
@MedeaFleecestealer, notamused
I hope so, but realize that when the IRS is calling the shots, it doesn’t matter what the banks think. Do you believe that when the IRS realizes that there are non-compliant former Americans out there, they won’t find some way to lead them directly to where that person stashes their cash?
@badger
“One stark reason is that the delay for those renouncing/relinquishing in Canada is currently described as 8-9 months.”
Classic case of the fox guarding the hen house, isn’t it?
Sorry all, I realized that I did not say that re the 8-9 month delay I was referring to the delay in receiving the CLN after renouncing/relinquishing. This holding of us as hostages to US aggressive extraterritorial taxation and citizenship-based BS just goes on and on. And I as there is NO incentive for them to address the delays, and since they will be facing exponentially greater numbers of those waiting for the CLNS, I assume that the delays will just grow. And will the banks decide to err on the side of satisfying the powerful US (vs. their minnow clients) and take the position that even where a CLN would demonstrate that we hadn’t been a US citizen for months or even years, they can violate our privacy and report anyway while we wait? The Consulates and embassies have been so very careful to refuse to give us any proof (except the renouncers have their receipt for paying the 450. fee) that we can use to show that we are indeed waiting for a CLN to come. That means that if our accounts are reported by the banks while we are still waiting, but the CLNs are even more behind, then they have reported accounts belonging to NON-US persons. But, as the US has its punitive apparatus all at the ready, and we have little or no means to challenge or sue the banks as individuals, the CBA and the like would just choose to satisfy the US – and our actual status and rights be damned I would think. Just their risk calculus probably.
Great points, Badger and thanks for the clarification. I suppose the message from the CBA will be BANKS:CYA!
It’s not an exaggeration to say that there will be thousands of people caught in this undocumented ex-citizen trap. Delaying FATCA won’t change this unfortunate reality, as I don’t expect the renunciations/relinquishments will trail off any time soon.