FATCA and the United Kingdom
Posts on The Isaac Brock Society website concerning
FATCA and the United Kingdom
For articles on other websites, see Media and Blog Articles
For general discussion of FATCA, see FATCA Discussion Thread
April 2019
02: Event: Congressman Holding, Proposed Changes for Taxation of Americans Abroad, London, UK, 24 April
September 2018
27: Interview with Solomon Yue & John Richardson in London UK Sept 2018
27: Legislation to help American expats imminent, London audience told
14: AmChan RO & DA September 2018 London Paris Frankfurt
10: Non-partisan discussion set for London on efforts to end U.S. citizen-based tax regime
August 2018
02: Update on UK Accidental Americans
July 2018
03: The Repatriation tax and the 962 Election for Americans with a U.K. corporation (9)
01: U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia and Netherlands form international tax enforcement group
August 2016
02: Reminder – Solving U.S. Citizenship Problems – LONDON UK Sunday, August 7, 2016
July 2016
16: Why Boris Johnson must relinquish US citizenship on the occasion of his appointment as British Foreign Minister
February 2016
24: Solving US Citizenship Problems-London UK Monday, February 29, 2016
June 2015
02: Boris Johnson: proud double-taxpaying supporter of the Anglo-American imperium
Mary 2015
29: The ISA, *exempt from FATCA Reporting* says UK Intergovernmental Agreement with the US…
March 2015
25: Eritreans in UK fight back against diaspora tax
February 2015
25: Reminder for London UK Information Session – Monday, March 2, 2015
15: Failure to launch for Boris Johnson
December 2014
04: About @MayorOfLondon Boris Johnson by Laura Saunders @Saunderswsj features familiar names
01: From ACA — To the Editor of Tax Notes — a Thank You to Boris Johnson
November 2014
August 2014
23: Non-US Accounts Being Reviewed in UK at the Expense of Non-US Persons
October 2013
02: BBC Article: Why I Gave Up US Citizenship
September 2013
30: BBC World Service: What it feels like to give up your American citizenship
26: Via @BBCNewsMagazine, Why are Americans Giving Up Their Citizenship? Simple Answer: #FATCA
14: Why people renounce citizenship: a view from London
August 2013
26: Britain condemned the diaspora tax
June 2013
13: Cameron continues to push Harper to signup to FATCA
08: UK PM Cameron pushing hard against US Congress to break Delaware secrecy
November 2012
19: UK Explanatory Memorandum on FATCA IGA
August 2012
28: British want their own version of FATCA
June 2012
30: Meet Accidental American Boris Johnson, Mayor of London
May 2012
08: U.K.'s Association of Investment Companies suggests members not comply with FATCA
February 2012
@Watcher – interesting! I wasn’t aware FirstDirect was owned by HSBC.
I just looked up their FATCA FAQ and it’s as hardnosed as can be. Thanks for the heads-up, I will keep well clear.
Fortunately, most of my accounts were opened decades ago, and don’t have my place of birth.
@iota
Who owns who, UK banks
http://www.moneysupermarket.com/c/news/who-owns-who/0003118/
Thanks, Heidi – I’m sorted now, but the link should be useful to others in the UK who may be looking for a bank.
@iota – “Fortunately, most of my accounts were opened decades ago,…”
As it happens, so was my First Direct one. I opened that account nearly a quarter century ago, and up popped the FATCA letter based on previous (not current) US address.
No sooner had I quashed that than another letter arrived stating that the bank needed copies of my passport and other ID to comply with current UK AML regulations, and they were ‘sorry’ that they had waited (23 years!) until now to request them. They didn’t mention FATCA in that second letter, so I don’t know whether it was actually connected with FATCA nevertheless, either specifically for my account or just in general. It was mighty coincidental, though.
There was no way for me to wriggle out of this second request for information. I don’t have a US place of birth though, so had nothing to worry about by providing it. It was just yet one more piece of pointless hoop-jumping for me and box-ticking for the bank.
@Watcher
AML my foot. They are just double and treble checking you don’t have a US infection. It’s absurd that the banks allegiance is to a foreign government and not to their resident customers.
@Watcher – it could be the bank just being paranoid about AML. The Proceeds of Crime Act is enough to put the fear of god into any bank that has reason to worry (such as a bank belonging to the HSBC Group).
I used to assume that topics such as Money Laundering could never be relevant for me. Even after I learned about FATCA/CBT last summer, it never occurred to me until very recently that I should maybe also read up a bit on AML legislation. But a few weeks ago I came across a book, International Guide to Money Laundering Law and Practice. Chapter 4, “UK Part IV: Confiscating the Proceeds of Crime”, is available free at http://uk.practicallaw.com/books/9781847661593/chapter04, so I read it, or rather skimmed it.
Some of what I read – especially the paragraphs about taxation, and what constitutes a crime – did surprise me, and made me thankful once again for my CLN. Not that I believe for a minute that non-compliant USCs are in any danger of getting a visit from SOCA, but a bank might be anxious to cover its ass, just in case. A long ago US address could be enough to make them jumpy, maybe? Know Your Customer, and all that. Glad it didn’t cause you a problem.
@Heidi – I know what you mean but I think in reality a bank’s allegiance is only to its own interests. America is more of a threat to them, that’s why they jump when America whistles.
@iota.
Yes, agree, but it’s galling when they have been put in charge of alm and quote this as an excuse when they were involved in libor, ppi and sub prime.
Yeah, they’re rubbish, no doubt about it.
@Heidi – “AML my foot”
Perhaps, but I think iota’s view of AML paranoia is probably what I saw from the outside. A few other folk reported the same AML request from First Direct but with no immediately preceding FATCA request, so I’m inclined to think they weren’t closely connected.
Still, it’s a data point on FATCA compliance in the UK. Particularly worth noting that at least one bank insists on either W-9 or W-8BEN, and offers no other option for more customer-friendly — or more accurately, less customer-hostile — certification.
@watcher
Ate you saying that uk banks are required or have chosen to check all their existing customers data for aml regs?
If not, then what criteria do they use to make their selection?
Possible scenario:
They found the outdated US address during FATCA checks. They knew very well it wasn’t “indicia” which required “curing” but they tried it on, hoping a FATCA letter would give them the paperwork needed to protect them from any AML risk. When that didn’t work, they had another try, not mentioning FATCA.
Just my speculation.
As I understand it, the UK AML regs don’t specify what checks banks must carry out. The bank is supposed to do what is necessary.
@Heidi
I don’t know about all UK banks, but this division of HSBC apparently has chosen to run some additional checks. No known reason (assuming it’s not FATCA!), and I’ve yet to see anything similar from other banks.
As for HSBC’s criteria, there’s no real pattern because there aren’t that many reports, just a few anecdotes (whines, complaints!) on message boards. The common thread seems to be that the account was opened years or decades earlier, so probably at a time when AML rules were either less strict or maybe less well adhered to.
@iota
Perhaps, but I’m more inclined to think that the combination of FATCA, AML, CRS and the entire menagerie of acronymic compliance stuff pushed onto banks probably triggered a wholesale sweep of accounts in HSBC, and it just so happened that my name came up on both FATCA (old US address) and AML (account opened decades ago, no ID on record).
My reasoning here is their “we reduced the time period from ten year to three on old US addresses” excuse when challenged on FATCA. There’s nothing magic about three years, and if they wanted they could have simply insisted on their original ten year window and got the FATCA stuff out of me anyway, rather than beat about the bush and then hide the same thing later under AML as you suggest. As a bank customer these days in the UK you can be kicked out for any (or even no) reason, so it’s not like I’d have had the choice if they had insisted on their initial FATCA demand. Cock-up seems likelier to me than conspiracy, then. I could be wrong, of course.
@Watcher – true. No need for my imaginary scenario.
@ Watcher
I think the magic in the ‘three’ year statement may be connected to the back years in which Fatca reporting data is required. A US address would be relevant in 2013 but not in 2012, (as fatca wasn’t in operation then). Unless of course they can ferret out a US passport or birthplace or unreturned green card that goes along with that old US address!
@watcher PS
As I understand it, a US address in 2013 would be a fatca reportable account, a 2012 wouldn’t……unless they can somehow find some other US indicia on you surviving today. Hence the 3 yr statement, then the follow up.
I said: “I renounced in October 2015, received CLN 2016. Just opened a new current account with one of the Big Five – no problems, no W8-BEN.”
I sent off the self-certification packet. The bank has responded, confirming that my account is not reportable and no further action is needed.
Nice to have written confirmation.
@iota
They sound reasonable.
Can you share the banks name? It would certainly be useful to others.
@Heidi – I’m reluctant to name brand names online became of the zillion spam bots. It’s the Spanish bank 🙂
Iota
Ole
🙂
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/funds/the-40pc-tax-hit-for-britains-200000-americans/
Archining this article link courtesy of @Jenny http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/10/11/good-news-from-the-french-commission/comment-page-2/#comment-7687628 , re effect of US extraterritorial CBT/FATCA/FBAR on the legitimate local retirement and other savings of UK citizens and residents deemed by the US to be ‘UStaxablepersonsabroad’.
@Badger, if Russia was doing this the howling would be breaking glass.
@George, you’re right about the din that would have resulted. Apparently, the UK government isn’t interested in the financial wellbeing of ordinary citizens and families trying to save for old age and disability. The costs of FATCA implementation just keep getting downloaded further and further down the chain – with the US getting off free.
Apparently the UK government are also uninterested in upholding the human rights of citizens and residents https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/18/government-collecting-personal-data-surveillance . If they’re willing to defend that, then I guess they are unlikely to care much about the data collection under the FATCA IGA – even if it is going to a foreign government.
Posting this also on this thread, courtesy of Jefferson D Tomas
October 23, 2016 at 8:03 am
“This UK article just posted by Keith Redmond at Accidental Americans FB page: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tax/income-tax/i-had-to-pay-8200-to-escape-draconian-us-tax-system/ “