FATCA and Australia – Part 1 of 2
January 2020: This thread continues at FATCA and Australia – Part 2 of 2.
Let’s Fix the Australia/US Tax Treaty! The Australia/US tax treaty needs urgent revision to prevent double taxation. Get involved at www.FixTheTaxTreaty.org
Posts on The Isaac Brock Society website concerning FATCA and Australia
For articles on other websites, see Media and Blog Articles
For general discussion of FATCA, see FATCA Discussion Thread
For links to some websites and contact info (government, organisations, tax information), see Australia Information Links
25: John Richardson and Karen Alpert Session in Brisbane Australia Oct 25, 2018
August 2018
01: U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia and Netherlands form international tax enforcement group
January 2018
July 2017
March 2017
13: What Lessons Can Be Learned from the Sad Stories of “IRS Compliant” Australians Shaun and Mary?
November 2016
30: “Solving U.S. Citizenship Problems” – Online January 9, 2017 (Australia)
August 2016
25: Let’s Fix the Australia/US Tax Treaty!
May 2016
15: Australia: Dealing with Superannuation
February 2016
19: #Australia funds America’s #FATCA #Ethnic Identification System
September 2012
27: Last Day to make a FATCA submission to the Australian Govt
August 2012
28: Australian Government wants YOU to tell them what to do about FATCA
July 2012
20: Australian Financial Services Council lobbies Washington for FATCA exemption
We should send our local representatives a concise letter explaining what we want
Hopefully as elected official(s) Community, State and Federal they will forward to appropriate people (Joe Hockey??) for an OFFICIAL response (just google and send)
Let’s ALL work out a model letter
Cheers
JakDac
@Dr Mike Nahan (reply obviously by his secretary, not him directly)
“Good morning
Please be advised that the Hon Dr Mike Nahan MLA, is the elected State Member for the electorate of Riverton, in the Western Australian State Parliament.
Dr Nahan has no expertise or experience in this matter and recommends that those people affected seek professional tax and/or legal advice in relation to their concerns.”
I’m curious how Mike Nathan MLA would have no expertise or experience with FATCA, being a US citizen? Or, has he renounced his US citizenship? Either way, I’d think that the troubles experienced by dual-nationals (Australian citizens who also hold US citizenship) would be of some concern to an elected official? Or are they only of concern if they affect him personally? That can’t be right? Right?
The point of contact was to ascertain the level of interest or awareness of Australian politicians re: how great the impact of FATCA compliance for Australian citizens actually is. I’m taken aback by the dismissive nature of this post.
@ Jane
Way back I got the same kind of runaround from my Canadian Conservative MP …
Poltroons of politicians are a worldwide plague.
@EllenDownunder
On “If CBA asks me about tax residency I will tell them I am a tax resident of Australia only.
Are you able to answer all the inquisitions questions as per the extract from IGA below?
4. Notwithstanding a finding of U.S. indicia under subparagraph B(1) of this section, a Reporting Australian Financial Institution is not required to treat an account as a U.S. Reportable Account if:
a) Where the Account Holder information unambiguously indicates a U.S. place of birth, the Reporting Australian Financial Institution obtains, or has previously reviewed and maintains a record of:
(1) A self-certification that the Account Holder is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which may be on an IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form);
(2) A non-U.S. passport or other government-issued identification evidencing the Account Holder’s citizenship or nationality in a country other than the United States; and
(3) A copy of the Account Holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
(a) The reason the Account Holder does not have such a certificate despite relinquishing U.S. citizenship; or
(b) The reason the Account Holder did not obtain U.S. citizenship at birth.
@All
As anyone spoke to an official in Australia that truly understands the problems we are having. It appears to me that the MPs do not get it or they simply do not want to!
I hope I am wrong.
@EllenDownunder, All
For interest the link to the NAB FATCA form.
http://www.nab.com.au/content/dam/nab/personal/accounts/investment-accounts/nab-cash-manager-adviser-portal/documents/fatca-form-may-2014.pdf
Two ways to fix it: A) Real protection in the form of a revised Tax Treaty, B) Change US tax and compliance laws.
@Alby
“How to get more dual citizens informed and active”
I am active on twitter. I targeted a few areas where US persons may be found including: @USAembassyinOZ, #AmbBerry @CEO_AmChamAU @AmChamAU @DemsAbroadOz, and I been pestering @pwc_au
One aim is to direct people back to IBS.
AU
On “When you spoke to the MP do you feel that there was any pre-existing understanding of CBT and the consequences to Australians?”
Yes MP understood CBT, and didn’t understand consequence for Australians.
I will say it again Aus govt MP”s need educating. The real impact is the psychological effect on some people which can cause anxiety. I saw on Toronto lawyer John Richardson website, he calls it US birthplace anxiety.
At end of our meet with MP it was asked who else in our electorate are impacted and I highlighted them all as they knew of them. Most are self employed business owners.
MP said can only speak for electorate to Joe Hockey. Which means all of us need visit their local MP, has more impact than sending emails.
JakDac has good idea on a standard letter that covers all points.
MP Also asked if we want to expose our anonymity if this goes through some parliamentary process or hearing, i am not sure of the process.
But yes we agreed to this process.
Can’t stay hidden behind closed doors
Or box at your own shadow.
Let’s get that letter that states our unique problems as Americans in Australia. The big two problems that come to my mind is the extra US tax on our Super NOT recognized as a pension in the US also taxing of the sale of our house (after 250K. single rate) I agree that our best bet is getting the US 2006 model tax treaty signed.I have talked to the tax treaty people here (great bunch) and I believe they understand our position. They need the pollie’s to give them the go ahead. Please start emailing and calling your government reps.
JC from what I have read of your posts you could write a constitution. Can you start the model letter ?
@EmBee
Poltroons of Politicians.
A poltroon is a coward. Poltroons have a lack of courage and fortitude.
Poltroon is an old-fashioned word for a type of person that exists in every time period: a coward. If you behave in a way that shows no courage or confidence, you’re acting like a poltroon. In movies, the villains are often poltroons who are sneaky and devious instead of brave and straightforward. A hero is the opposite of a poltroon. Poltroons can be described as craven and abject, but most of all, cowardly.
Poltroons of Compliance Condors. This one’s funny
.http://federaltaxandformcrimes.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/dreams-of-compliance-condors-or.html
All – I received permission to post this letter read to MP and advisor.
This was absolutely written from the heart, with tears, in the spirit from one who has experienced soul-destroying injustice. There is a strong impact on family and livelihoods, which is unseen by politicians.
These messages have to get out.
My husband is 70 and I am 64. After applying for and receiving residency status we migrated permanently to Australia in 1971, arriving here with $7000 to our name. All four of our children were born here. Everything we own and have now has been the result of a lifetime of blood, sweat, tears and hard work here in Australia. We have lived good lives here and can say with pride that we have made a positive and lasting contribution to our community in our 44 years here. We have never owned any property in the U.S. and have never had any financial ties with the US in the 44 years we have lived here. Why has the Australian federal government allowed us to have gone from being law abiding Australian citizens (we became citizens in 1992) to U.S. Persons tax evaders/criminals?
The allowance by the Australian federal government of FATCA/FBAR is for us a profoundly complete game changer of epic proportions. The costs to tax lawyers to help us cover the FATCA/FBAR nightmare will be in the thousands of dollars. We will be forced to completely re-work such things as our wills and our planning succession at a huge loss.
We have a severely mentally handicapped dual citizen (US/Australian) 43-year-old son in carewhose finances are controlled by the Public Trustee who will be forced to pay thousands of dollars on our son’s behalf, from his meagre savings to cover FATCA/FBAR fines and requirements. How will we now provide for our son through our wills if the U.S. is allowed to take from his inheritance? Anything we leave for his care becomes a foreign trust and the U.S. will have the right to tax it. The U.S. tax system is the most complex in the world. Handling his finances has been one of the most difficult challenges in our son’s life – if we are struggling to come to terms with this terrible spectre of the IRS now hanging over us how will it affect him? There are no words to describe the cruelty of what the Australian federal government is allowing to befall upon him.
I have a younger sister also here in Australia,also a dual citizen, who is fragile and in poor health, and I dare not tell her about FATCA/FBAR because I believe it will severely affect her will to live.
How far down the generations of children born to Australian citizen parents, who were born in the U.S., will this curse be allowed to go? Our children are by definition U.S. Persons for tax purposes because we were U.S. citizens. Migrant children already start out with identity struggle -what will it be like for them cursed to a lifetime of paying taxes to the US when they were born here? Do they not already have enough to cope with?
We are having a most terrible burden laid upon us. Always we have felt safe and protected in Australia. This is now gone, shattered. If the Australian federal government can allow the US government to attack us – Australian citizens of good standing – this way then what else will our federal government allow? We are no longer safe. Why are we being forced to pay taxes not only without any form of representation but also- as Australian citizens residing permanently in Australia – without any reciprocal benefit whatsoever?
This new double tax is so bizarre—take for example this fact: the Obamacare 3.8% Net Investment Income surcharge has no allowable tax credits against Australian taxes—we are supposed to pay outright to support the U.S health Medicare – is this not absurd in the extreme? As Australian citizens we are already fulfilling our responsibility to the Australian Medicare program – of what benefit to us is Obamacare? Why are Australian dollars being allowed to go out of Australia to support the U.S. healthcare system when the Australian federal government is struggling to support its own health system? Does the Australian federal government have to help support the U.S. now that the U.S. is broke?
I ask you – if you or Joe Hockey had migrant parents would you allow this to happen to your family? How would you feel if this was happening to you? We are being stripped of our rights of protection as Australian citizens and being left to live in fear. Is this not un-Australian? Are we – Australian citizens who have worked so hard the majority of our lives here on Australian soil – now so utterly unimportant and worthless to the Australian federal government? Is this in keeping with the spirit of Advance Australia Fair? Is this the spirit of Fair Go?
I humbly beseech you on behalf of all my family here in Australia to help us – your fellow Australians – to obtain protection from this soul-destroying injustice.
Thank you
Alby.. Ignore the U.S. and their rules. They won’t bother you.
Hitchens said ‘ one of the beginnings of human emancipation is to ability to laugh at authority”. You can learn. Einstein said ” unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth”
You will be OK. ignore them- move on. Best wishes.
Alby: Wow! Is the letter that you read to your MP et al. something that you feel you could share (with personal identifying details redacted) here at Brock? The reason I ask is that I am constantly collecting “personal impact” statements (under pseudonyms or monikers) to send to the UN in follow-up documents supporting our Human Rights Complaint. If you are willing to share your redacted letter or portions thereof you could post it here and I will include it in my next support document. Thank you for sharing what you have so far. I know a lot of us would like to figure out how to move our government officials to tears!
@EmBee, Alby
I have emailed my post here to the email of Nahan/secretary re: that hideous, dismissive, hand-washing post of theirs…
Lets see if they reply to me on Monday?
If not, I’ll FB/Twitter it.
😉
@Duke of Devon:
love Hitchens!
What a huge loss his passing was….
@ Alby
I can feel the tears
Thanks for sharing / such letters give me ideas to construct my nightmare
Duke re “Ignore the U.S. and their rules. They won’t bother you”
Many stories where they can FLOOR you
I KNOW this is all wrong BUT the decision is up to the individual.
Some people gamble some do not
As they say gamble responsibly
@All
From a letter form Senator Mathias Cormann, October 2012
“Failure to comply with certain US tax laws can lead to a goal sentence”
“Through FATCA the US Government is attempting to deter tax evasion by US persons who invest in US assets through no US entities. Again, as a general proposition, the Coalition would support the related application of that principle to Australian tax residents.”
@JakDac This is my best letter to government officials in Australia: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca-and-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-6155282
That is the way I am inclined with backup from letters to the Senate Finance Committee (including my own). However, I think @Alby has a magic touch with MP visit, and perhaps less confrontational than myself and with fully informed approach.
@all
From Senator Mathias Cormann, October 2012
“Through FATCA the US Government is attempting to deter tax evasion by US persons who invest in US assets through no US entities. Again, as a general proposition, the Coalition would support the related application of that principle to Australian tax residents”
Does that mean that the Coalition would consider every asset owned by a Australian/US citizen in Australia purchased with Australian sourced income a US assets!
In the Aus Govt record that dual Australian-US citizens will be hurt
So while dual Australian-US citizens will be affected by FATCA, the multinationals will be able to continue to shift profits overseas. In a speech earlier today I listed the measures, five of them, on which the government has backtracked. The total amount is $1.1 billion.
I am a strong supporter of transparency, but it does strike me as strange that the government is very keen on transparency for US-Australian citizens in exchanging information between the ATO and IRS but less keen on transparency when it comes to what has happened in our detention centres, what is happening with boats.
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=BillId_Phrase%3A%22r5265%22%20Dataset%3Ahansardr,hansards%20Title%3A%22second%20reading%22;rec=6
@Alby you mean the camps that Labor started and 1,000 deaths at sea under Labor/Greens. Perhaps agree to disagree on that. Maybe off topic? Lots of areas we may agree on.
I was hoping to hear from the UN in regards to the Human Rights Complaint concerning impact on US persons living overseas on US extraterritorial tax and compliance laws, and filed by members of IBS and Maple Sandbox. That keeps delaying. I have read that. The UN format makes it less of an interesting read. However, it implicates the governments of the world in participating in the Human Rights Abuse (Through Tax Treaty Gaps). That means Australia too. Perhaps that may get more “traction” than tax issues that tend to turn people off.
@JC
Sorry for confusion. The 2 paragraphs in that post are what was stated in Parliament. Not Me.
Aust Govt stated – So while dual Australian-US citizens will be affected by FATCA, the multinationals will be able to continue to shift profits overseas. In a speech earlier today I listed the measures, five of them, on which the government has backtracked. The total amount is $1.1 billion.
Austin Govt stated – I am a strong supporter of transparency, but it does strike me as strange that the government is very keen on transparency for US-Australian citizens in exchanging information between the ATO and IRS but less keen on transparency when it comes to what has happened in our detention centres, what is happening with boats.
@JaKDac
You said you talked to the tax treaty people here (great bunch) and I believe they understand our position.
Was this the people at treasury? My experience was that they just said to me “but you are a US citizen” when I mentioned every single problem.
Could you please share any positive comments as the treasury people just made me very depressed and worthless as an Australian Citizen. Took me a long time to feel good about my self again.
Tax Treaty division I have personally talked to four individuals and am of the opinion they are willing to assist if given the green light. It may be that the US is not keen
@Muzzled No More
Yes have received permission from the author to to share with Brock and use the letter for impact statement for Human Rights Complaint.
Are you wanting it mailed to you? Or emailed, or do you copy n paste from this Web post.?
Unsure of process