FATCA and Australia – Part 1 of 2
January 2020: This thread continues at FATCA and Australia – Part 2 of 2.
Let’s Fix the Australia/US Tax Treaty! The Australia/US tax treaty needs urgent revision to prevent double taxation. Get involved at www.FixTheTaxTreaty.org
Posts on The Isaac Brock Society website concerning FATCA and Australia
For articles on other websites, see Media and Blog Articles
For general discussion of FATCA, see FATCA Discussion Thread
For links to some websites and contact info (government, organisations, tax information), see Australia Information Links
25: John Richardson and Karen Alpert Session in Brisbane Australia Oct 25, 2018
August 2018
01: U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia and Netherlands form international tax enforcement group
January 2018
July 2017
March 2017
13: What Lessons Can Be Learned from the Sad Stories of “IRS Compliant” Australians Shaun and Mary?
November 2016
30: “Solving U.S. Citizenship Problems” – Online January 9, 2017 (Australia)
August 2016
25: Let’s Fix the Australia/US Tax Treaty!
May 2016
15: Australia: Dealing with Superannuation
February 2016
19: #Australia funds America’s #FATCA #Ethnic Identification System
September 2012
27: Last Day to make a FATCA submission to the Australian Govt
August 2012
28: Australian Government wants YOU to tell them what to do about FATCA
July 2012
20: Australian Financial Services Council lobbies Washington for FATCA exemption
@JC, I am not sure how good the AmChams are as allies against FATCA. Maybe it differs country by country.
I don’t see FATCA on their current list of priorities http://www.amchamcanada.ca/policy . Who knows what is meant by the item “Harmonization of U.S. – Canada Taxation Policies and Procedures”. It may have nothing to do with relief from FATCA and the abuses of US extraterritorial CBT, and everything to do with smoothing the way for Canada to further accommodate the US. It is after all the AMERICAN Chamber of Commerce.
AmCham Canada at one point had an anti-FATCA position paper on their website, but that has disappeared. Then they later noted what a growing business opportunity FATCA presented for those in the US accounting and US tax law sector. I’m not sure they make good advocates since the see business opportunities in FATCA. And one prominent UStaxlaw compliance condor transplant who emigrated to Canada in 2011 proudly lists his affiliation with the American Chamber of Commerce – Canada Calgary (and Democrats Abroad Canada) as his only “Community Involvement”/s in Canada (lots of US engagement though!). Ironically, he’s made himself at home ingratiating himself with our Canadian government, appearing before our Parliament to defend FATCA and the IGA, and appearing to lend aid and comfort to the Canadian government FATCApologists in the recent initial hearing of the anti-FATCA IGA lawsuit brought by ADCS in Canada https://adcsovereignty.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/the-adscovereignty-fatca-lawsuit-is-underway-thoughts-on-day-1/ .
(OLDER but address should get to person ) Members of Parliament – South East Queensland
Electorate MP Name Phone E-Mail
Mount Ommaney Atwood, Julie 07 3279 5137 mount.ommaney@parliament.qld.gov.au
South Brisbane Bligh, Anna 07 3255 3615 south.brisbane@parliament.qld.gov.au
Capalaba Choi, Michael 07 3245 6950 capalaba@parliament.qld.gov.au
Sandgate Darling, Vicky 07 3269 7018 sandgate@parliament.qld.gov.au
Aspley Davis, Tracy 07 3263 6703 aspley@parliament.qld.gov.au
Greenslopes Dick, Cameron 07 3394 3956 grennslopes@parliament.qld.gov.au
Redlands Dowling, peter 07 3207 6910 redlands@parliament.qld.gov.au
Indooroopilly Emerson, Scott 07 3878 1928 indooroopilly@parliament.qld.gov.au
Bulimba Farmer, Dianne 07 3399 9492 bulimba@parliament.qld.gov.au
Yeerongpilly Finn, Simon 07 3848 4410 yeerongpilly@parliament.qld.gov.au
Moggill Flegg, Bruce 07 3378 8020 moggill@parliament.qld.gov.au
Mount Coot-tha Fraser, Andrew 07 3368 3208 mount.coot-tha@parliament.qld.gov.au
Brisbane Central Grace, Grace 07 3832 1322 brisbane.central@parliament.qld.gov.au
Stafford Hinchcliffe, Stirling 07 3359 1331 staffor@parliament.qld.gov.au
Ashgrove Jones, Kate 07 3366 6000 ashgrove@parliament.qld.gov.au
Chatsworth Kilburn, Steven 07 3398 4777 chatsworth@parliament.qld.gov.au
Lytton Lucas, Paul 07 3396 0066 lytton@parliament.qld.gov.au
Pine Rivers Male, Carolyn 07 3205 6779 pine.rivers@parliament.qld.gov.au
Beaudesert McLindon, Aidan 07 5546 9611 beaudesert@parliament.qld.gov.au
Logan Mickel, Reginald 07 3806 8513 logan@parliament.qld.gov.au
Bundamba Miller, Jo-Ann 07 3288 3737 bundamba@parliament.qld.gov.au
Waterford Moorhead, Evan 07 3200 3477 waterford@parliament.qld.gov.au
Clayfield Nicholls, Timothy 07 3268 1844 clayfield@parliament.qld.gov.au
Ipswich Nolan, Rachel 07 3202 3452 ipswich@parliament.qld.gov.au
Kallangur O’Neill, Mary-Anne 07 3491 8800 kallangur@parliament.qld.gov.au
Inala Palaszczuk, Annastacia 07 3372 3207 inala@parliament.qld.gov.au
Mansfield Reeves, Phil 07 3849 3488 mansfield@parliament.qld.gov.au
Lockyer Rickuss, Ian 07 5462 2772 lockyer@parliament.qld.gov.au
Nudgee Roberts, Neil 07 3260 5326 nudgee@parliament.qld.gov.au
Stretton Robertson, Stephen 07 3344 2659 stretton@parliament.qld.gov.au
Cleveland Robinson, Mark 07 3286 2726 cleveland@parliament.qld.gov.au
Morayfield Ryan, Mark 07 3888 3556 morayfield@parliament.qld.gov.au
Woodridge Scott, Desley 07 3808 5212 woodridge@parliament.qld.gov.au
Sunnybank Spence, Judith 07 3349 9159 sunnybank@parliament.qld.gov.au
Springwood Stone, Barbara 07 3423 2788 springwood@parliament.qld.gov.au
Algester Struthers, Karen 07 3216 6389 algester@parliament.qld.gov.au
Redcliffe van Litsenburg, Elisabeth 07 3284 2667 redcliffe@parliament.qld.gov.au
Everton Watt, Murray 07 3855 1133 everton@parliament.qld.gov.au
Murrumba Wells, Dean 07 3293 1069 murrumba@parliament.qld.gov.au
Ipswich West Wendt, Wayne 07 3813 0074 ipswich.west@parliament.qld.gov.au
Ferny Grove Wilson, Geoffrey 07 3851 1570 ferny.grove@parliament.qld.gov.au
Think this has more BCC to all your concerns GET this noted
Broadwater@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Mudgeeraba@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Burnett@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Ian Berry ,
kawana ,
Albert@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Brisbane.Central@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Ipswich.West@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Whitsunday@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Thuringowa@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Coomera@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Hinchinbrook@parliament.qld.gov.au,
localgovernment@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
ccsds@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
Stafford@parliament.qld.gov.au,
police@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
nprsr@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
Bulimba@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Redlands@parliament.qld.gov.au,
ATSI@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
Indooroopilly@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Pumicestone@parliament.qld.gov.au,
moggill ,
Nanango@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Gympie@parliament.qld.gov.au,
John Grant MP ,
Morayfield@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Murrumba@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Burleigh@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Townsville@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Warrego@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Pine.Rivers@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Gregory@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Greenslopes@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Cook@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Cairns@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Beaudesert@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Waterford@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Maryborough@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Mirani@parliament.qld.gov.au,
HousingandPublicworks@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
Caloundra@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Toowoomba.South@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Burdekin Electorate Office ,
Kerry Millard MP ,
Chatsworth@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Southport@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Mackay@parliament.qld.gov.au,
The Premier ,
Clayfield@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Stretton@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Glass.House@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Logan@parliament.qld.gov.au,
“mount.coot-tha@parliament.qld.gov.au” ,
Lockyer@parliament.qld.gov.au,
“markrobinsonmp.com” ,
Kallangur@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Deputy Premier – SMTP ,
Callide@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Algester@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Dale Shuttleworth MP ,
Maroochydore@parliament.qld.gov.au,
speaker@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Tarnya Smith MP ,
Hervey.Bay@parliament.qld.gov.au,
“southern.downs@parliament.qld.gov.au” ,
Health@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
Mermaid.Beach@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Sunnybank@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Currumbin@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Tourism@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
Lytton Electorate Office ,
Barron.River@parliament.qld.gov.au,
sitia@ministerial.qld.gov.au,
Ian Walker ,
Toowoomba.North@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Nudgee@parliament.qld.gov.au,
Keppel@parliament.qld.gov.au
“CASHCOW”
It is official: the Commonwealth Bank of Australia (CBA) thinks “US Persons” only reside in the United States. This is not the same as the IRS definition of “US Persons”.
US Person : A person in the United States or acting for the account or benefit of a person in the United States, and for the avoidance of doubt, does not have the same meaning as the term ‘US Person’ as defined in Reg S under the US Securities Act
https://www.commbank.com.au/content/dam/commbank/about-us/shareholders/pdfs/2015-asx/CBA_Retail_Entitlement_Offer_Booklet_17_Aug_2015.pdf
@JC + All
JakDac suggested a model letter–you could say an overall position paper. Nothing that has been put forward is owned by any one individual. Moving forward, I see this as a collective effort, and collaboration like you mentioned previously and would encourage a well versed JC and others to distil-extract from the document for what may or may not be worthwhile to strengthen our overall case as a group. As the document is very lengthy a dot point edit could help to make it more power point style in presentation.
MP wanted to know who we represent, and this is the beginning
@EllenDownunder
I think this is different to FATCA form as I have spoken to the CBA enquiry line and they said US Citizen and the US taxes by citizenship.
@Alby
you said “MP wanted to know who we represent, and this is the beginning”
What was the context of this statement as I am not sure how to interpret it?
@Alby- I am willing to start on the joint letter, yet kind of busy in the day job, so might not be for a week. I always intend letters short yet they tend to go long. I am still working my way to Lynne Swanson writing style. What will be the ask? If you go the discrimination route then that gets towards invalidating the IGA. How about “go long” and go for a tax treaty revision?
@AU
MP asked it in the context of her electorate and we named locals with US tainted in her electorate.
But this is more far reaching than the MP electorate, it’s AUS wide as there are 77000 U.S born here as per the Regulation impact statement.
We would hope we can stir more activity for motivated individuals to visit or email contact their MP”s with a Standardized collaborated submission that JC promised to write (haha).
Lobbyist co is keen on our activities, he asked for an update on MP meet so I sent him what I wrote here in Brock + the 2 submissions.
Want to keep them on the hook.
@Aussie Brockers…….my two cents/pence as a fellow Commonwealth Citizen Brocker, NOT trying to but in only offerring whats happening in my neck of the woods………
I have found it more effective to treat this as a Citizenship Problem NOT a tax problem.
I think you need to demand that you be treated as an equal 100% Australian Citizen, full stop. The government can share bank information on ALL Australian Citizens, not black ones, not red ones, not yellow ones…..but ALL.
You need to use the term of “Clinging Nationality” when referring to USC, not “dual citizenship.”
Australia passed a law and because they passed a law the only way to get out from underneath the discriminatory aspect is to incur great expense. You need to demand compensation because it is their problem NOT your problem.
When Obama took office there was no fee, then it became $450, then it became $2,350 and its still under review…..not counting professional fees.
You need to compare the cost and time of ditching CLINGING USness with Australian Citizenship.
The Australian Govt signed a law that created a discriminatory situation and they abrogated all the definitions and the method to get out from underneath it.
You NO longer want to be discriminated against so they need to pay your expense to get out from underneath the bus.
Now as I think about it……..in Canada……ADCS at the next phase of litigation could demand compensation from the Government of Canada for everyone that needs to renounce and enter streamlined.
The essential is turning the table…….from pretty please help me……to you screwed me over now you need to pay for it.
You also need to ask the very awkward question as to why an Australian born in Australia to two US Citizens is treated differently than an Australian born in USA to two Australian Citizens. That is clear prima facia discrimination.
As others have said the best way to get rid of bad law is full enforcement.
@Alby……I would suggest start quantifying a demand in financial terms……its the Governments mess and they need to pay to get all 77,000 out of the mess.
77,000 times ($2,350 in renounce fees plus $10,000 in streamlined professional fees)
Australia needs to pony up around One Billion US Dollars to those affected.
Oh, they need to act now before the USA jacks up the fee any more.
@JC
It is ‘cleanskin’ Australians that fail to see that the problem is not FATCA as such. In particular the ones that drafted the legislation with total disregard (in the FATCA Regulation Impact Statement) for the Australian naturalised citizens. Apparently they willingly shirked at the prospect of the U.S. Big Stick with mealy-mouth appeasement to U.S. domestic law. The fundamental problem is the “sideshow” that does not treat account holder information of naturalised Australian citizens with equal protection and standing before the Australian domestic law as a citizen that is Australian born. US born naturalized Australian citizens are not being treated as full Australian citizens in this matter. Does this mean that a naturalised Australian citizen is a second class citizen whose vote only counts as a half vote?
@George
Thankyou for your input and suggestions I like it.
“The essential is turning the table…….from pretty please help me……to you screwed me over now you need to pay for it” Haha that’s funny
MP we visited had no idea of renunciation fees, U.S. exit taxes on Australian business capital, Cost of US tax compliance on an on and on
If the ask is too big the poor MP will not know what to do, who to approach, what to say, then too hard basket. How about we make easy. We ask MP to write to ATO (we provide name) to change omission/misleading section on tax treaties on their website with footnote we provide. If that gets accomplished then we may point it out to highlight injustices. The fight is against the myth of double taxation prevented and lack of knowledge of double taxation.
@Alby, ” US born naturalized Australian citizens are not being treated as full Australian citizens in this matter. Does this mean that a naturalised Australian citizen is a second class citizen whose vote only counts as a half vote?”
Its far worse……
A US Born person, born to two Australian Citizens making said person automatically an Australian Citizen at birth is treated differently than an Australian born, automatic Australian Citizen, whose parents are both US Citizens.
Both individuals are simultaneously and automatically considered Australian and US in their respective countries but one has better and easier prospects in Australia than the other.
And its far worse because under the IGA, it is the USA that controls the definitions and effectively the terms.
What are you going to do if the USA raises the renunciation fee to $100,000? Who has to pay for it? What if the USA makes it impossible for a person to renounce? The problem is not yours, the problem belongs to the MPs and they need to pay for it and write the cheque.
@Alby, “MP we visited had no idea of renunciation fees, U.S. exit taxes on Australian business capital, Cost of US tax compliance on an on and on”
Since they passed a law without reading it…….quote Pelosi and Obamacare……they now need to either;
1. Get the USA to create a free streamlined renunciation program for Australians.
2. Pay the bill for Australians to renounce.
3. Enforce the Master Nationality Rule and have it written into the IGA and Australian Law.
@Alby…..if Parliament passes a law making a persons property drop in value, said person is enttiled to compensation to be made whole.
This is no different…..a law was passed and it is now costing you and 77,000 other people money.
See my three options above……
It leaves uni-USC who are permanent resident left hanging but it gets matters rolling. It is also adds clarity and how to fix the problem.
They can keep their IGA……..no problemo………but they now need to pay Australian Citizens money so their new problem can be fixed…..and Parliament needs to pony up quickly before it gets more expensive.
@George The law at most issue is CBT not #FATCA. Yet might say #FATCA allowing enforcement of CBT. Like the approach.
Spoke with Joe Hockey’s electorate office today and after a long conversation of our situation and reference to our forum (employee googled while on phone) I was assured that this subject would be presented to Joe in their correspondence briefing.
I also spoke to the Tax treaty people who have assured me that they are keen to work on this.
We have to get a fantastic dot point document of appropriate reading length that explains our unique positions as AU/US citizens
I also explained that when I speak to US and Australians they ALL feel that this whole situation is insane and unfair
A four year old child would agree.
I explained Joe would “look good” to all Australians bringing this obvious unfair targeted campaign against “new” Australians to light.
Media pressure is what we need.. Every AM I am trying my best to meet that objective (go back on this forum to find MANY contacts) JC is doing her best to tweet,,Facebook etc and I am learning this art ( Clinton,Triumph,Hockey,Rand Paul,and on and on.
The authors of some of the senate submissions
Niels Marquardt AmCham Sydney (ex Ambassador) is keen as WAS Robert Hodge of superannuation.asn.au (retired thus we should ask the new appointee for assistance)
I believe in the beginning we HAVE to get the Tax Treaty on the agenda at the moment it is DEFINITELY not
When a new source of taxation is found it never means, in practice, that the old source is abandoned. It merely means that the politicians have two ways of milking the taxpayer where they had one before.
H. L. Mencken
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/taxation.html#vP3AuDipoKUoH2Ux.99
I emailed directly to MLA Nahan:
@Dr Mike Nahan (reply obviously by his secretary, not him directly)
“Good morning
Please be advised that the Hon Dr Mike Nahan MLA, is the elected State Member for the electorate of Riverton, in the Western Australian State Parliament.
Dr Nahan has no expertise or experience in this matter and recommends that those people affected seek professional tax and/or legal advice in relation to their concerns.”
I’m curious how Mike Nathan MLA would have no expertise or experience with FATCA, being a US citizen? Or, has he renounced his US citizenship? Either way, I’d think that the troubles experienced by dual-nationals (Australian citizens who also hold US citizenship) would be of some concern to an elected official? Or are they only of concern if they affect him personally? That can’t be right? Right?
The point of contact was to ascertain the level of interest or awareness of Australian politicians re: how great the impact of FATCA compliance for Australian citizens actually is. I’m taken aback by the dismissive nature of this post.
No contact.
Or, has he renounced his US citizenship? He has
Mike Nahan is the WA Minister for Citizenship!!!!!!!!!!
Could ask for Parliamentary Inquiry
https://twitter.com/JCDoubleTaxed/status/638443018056404992
@All
We are being treated different to every other person born in another country and immigrated to Australia. For example anyone born in Europe is not asked by the bank.
US Persons are being segregated but this is not happening to other nationalities.