Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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Dear monalisa,
All the very best to you, and so very happy for you that your CLN has arrived. Have followed your (and others) travails from the start here, and it has helped me bear my own.
I identify so strongly with your statement;
“….I feel a mixture of relief and sadness so it’s a bittersweet feeling. Life will get easier though I feel resentful that I’ve had to give up my birthright to lead a normal life…”
I know it was very hard for you to do. Have no regrets about your decision. The US stole away your time, money, wellbeing, and LCUs (Just Me’s term ‘Life Credit Units’). Your suffering contributed nothing of consequence to the US. It stole from you and gave nothing in return. It could never have been satisfied, and all indications are that it would have continued in the same vein – because the underlying lack of ethics and the flawed worldview remain unchanged. How many other countries force their citizens, and the children of their citizens to run the gauntlet of threats, fear and cost that the US Treasury and IRS have deliberately and actively promulgated?
I wish you peace. Take care.
@monalisa,
I hope you can relax a bit now. The US even hastened getting that CLN to you!! I rejoice that you have received your CLN. Be happy; be proud. You are almost free from the absurdity and you should have every right of travelling to the US to visit your relatives there.
The US IRS and DOS cannot take away your heritage — that US history that you and your family have. The rest has been abuse, the blatantly criminalizing you, and I hope you absolutely know that! Be free; get on with your life.
With my proviso:
(Would it be that my son or any other really trapped by his or their “gift” of US citizenship could obtain that freedom. When born in another country of US parent(s) and neither they, because of their developmental disability or other mental incapacity and lack of understanding of the concept of citizenship and the consequences of renouncing that “supposed” citizenship, nor their Parent, Guardian or Trustee are given the right to renounce that citizenship on their behalf.)
Thanks everyone, especially @Calgary, for their kind and thoughtful words! My first feeling when I got the text from the courier firm telling me they’d be delivering the ‘package from the American Embassy was jubilation though after receiving it today, noted how thin the paper was. It’s almost as if they’re telling me not to let the door slam on the way out.
I was thinking of how others may not be so fortunate and let’s hope that darn ex-patriot act isn’t passed!!
When the IRS sends a refund after filing my final return next year, I’ll hopefully Finally be able to put all this behind me…
I hope others such as ‘Saddened Canadian be able to relinquish and for things to become more resolved for your disabled son.
And also to @Badger; had unwittingly thought because of the two red avatars that Calgary had posted twice! Yes, I will always resent that I had to give up my birth right.
I remember telling the very kind woman who administered the oath that I would still always love and hold a deep affection for America. She never asked me why I was renouncing but believe she understood how we Expats are in a tight corner.
I didn’t renounce for tax reasons because would have owes zero or de minimus tax going forward; it was actually the ongoing compliance costs and burdens plus a sense of being betrayed that was the final deal breaker for me.
@ monalisa2013 – that’s for your new date of independence 😉
I’m very happy to read about your very fast CLN. Congratulations! Try not to dwell too much on the “ifs of the past or the future. You’ve done your best with the rules as they stand today and that’s all anyone can do. This one’s for you …
@Em, Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. Never heard that Roger Whittaker track before, was very nice 70s music! I agree that we can’t predict what may happen in the future and that I made what seemed the best decision at the time. And hopefully I will have proven to have made the right choice. If nothing else, I will know that I did the very best I could which is all anyone can do, really. Plus much of what I worry about doesn’t even happen anyway! I’m going to see this as a major growing experience and see a new chapter starting!! 🙂
@ Monalisa1776
Congratulations on your CLN; I sure hope I get mine just as quick ( I relinquished 5 days ago ). Thanks for all your help and wisdom during the struggles we have gone through. You’re exactly right in looking at this as a new chapter in our lives. We’ll all be stronger in the end.
@ Want out
First I searched for my Oath of Allegiance from my first day at work for the Gov’t ( Took me five weeks to get it from my personal file at Archives in Ottawa. They send your file there if you have been retired for more than two years).
Then I had kept my letter of offer for the job from 1972 which I included; I also attached my Pension Statement for superannuation which contained my years of pensionable service; and I topped that off with a Recognition Certificate for 35 years service which I received one year before my retirement. I thought I should give them all the ammunition I had.
If you need more help don’t be shy; That’s how I got through it.
@Pacifica, please feel free to include my renunciation report in the consulate directory though am more comfortable not listing exact dates.
Hi, monalisa,
How about your data in the database of Renunciations and Relinquishments reported to Isaac Brock, not giving names, even pseudo, and giving only month / year information? http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/ Both the Consulate Report Directory and this database, I believe, are very useful for those learning of all that we discuss and report here. We can and need to pass on the help that we’ve received through this site.
(As well, I know that the Washington, DC immigration lawyer that I employed regarding my son’s status and the Consul General that I corresponded with in Ottawa, Canada found the information we compile useful. The immigration lawyer said that differences in experiences at different consulates around the world have long been a problem and he liked that we were tracking some of it. The Consul General in Ottawa certainly used the information in helping to bring changes to US consulates in Canada — most now requiring only one appointment. As well, her intervention in a couple of egregious Vancouver appointments has been witnessed here at Isaac Brock — and I, for one, am grateful for her communication with us and taking a lead in trying to make change happen here in Canada.)
Thanks to you, monalisa, and all who contribute what they do at Isaac Brock. It is about the sum of all our experiences that will, hopefully, make a difference vs. our trying to get through our own situations and find our individual paths to do that. Strength in numbers that this is happening to — and especially strength in support of people who actually understand! We actually could use so many more — those who have their heads in the sand as they try to protect themselves, one individual and one family at a time.
@Calgary, that would be great! 😀
I’m so pleased I can be of help though grateful that you understand that I need to be discreet, etc
Thanks, Mona Lisa!
I can just use months, no problem. I’ll put your report in this weekend, and if you ever want to change anything about it, just let me know.
And, once again — we’ve been on-line together for a l-o-n-g time, so I know it’s been a long and a very tough road for you — I am really happy for you and hope your future just gets better and better!
@Pacific, Thanks so much! This has indeed been the most stressful situation of my life. I am optimistic but still won’t be able to completely relax till my accountant files what will unfortunately be a fairly complex final return and 8854, probably with an October extension. I agree though that successfully renouncing has meant I’ve cleared my biggest hurdle! 😀
2081: Ex-pats breaking the shackles of citizenship based taxation
Just an update: I attempted to apply for a relinquishment under section 1 on Feb 5 2013 at the Jerusalem consulate (it’s in the report), but I received a letter from the Consul today saying the CLN request was denied since I renewed a passport (since I hadn’t applied for a CLN before that—had to go to the states on short notice) They said since I never bothered to apply for a CLN earlier and I renewed a passport, the intent wasn’t there. They said I was welcome to renounce under section 5.
BP
The way US Homelanders treat Americans living abroad is shameful. The more expats who divorce themselves from US citizenship the better.
@ BenPloni,
Thanks for the update on a decision on your claim of relinquishment at the Jerusalem consulate.
It underlines the important consequence of having a US passport after the date of the relinquishment claim. This is the only instance I’m aware of that an argument worked and the reqlinquishment claim was honoured.
You were right — I was more optimistic than you, based on the following. I’m glad you tried. Are you now going to go the renunciation route?
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/24/consulate-visit-report-directory/comment-page-37/#comment-179752
@Calgary…It wouldn’t have been honored back then either. The way I acquired Israeli citizenship under the “law of return” was considered by the DS as an automatic acquisition of citizenship. In 2009, another person tried to relinquish under section 1 and 2, but the DS said Israeli citizenship was conferred upon “automatic operation of the law” and not “naturalization”. That was their policy.
He sued and it went to the court of appeals. The court of appeals said it was “naturaliation” and he obtained a CLN under section after a hard fight. Still, the fact that the staff was obtuse about it then and now (they didn’t even recognize section 1 and 2 relinquishment in Israel when I went there..he only said you could do it via section 3, 4 or 5) tells me I am dealing against a buracracy I can’t win. The Lawyer who represented the other guy asked me if I wanted me to take my case, but I don’t think it’s worth the cost/hassle.
I e-mailed the consul for an appointment to renounce under section 5.
BP
[Here’s the case where the court of appeals ruled law of return/aliyah is naturalization:
http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/0E0B84A6A298A92385257A1B004EF146/$file/11-5010-1378147.pdf
What you’ve provided is a valuable addition to the experiences shown in the Consulate Directory — the differences, one consulate to another, throughout the world. Thank you again, BenPloni. Please keep in touch as your journey “out” continues. Good luck.
I was born in the US in the early 1950’s. My mom is a Canadian and father is an American. 8 years later we moved back to Canada.In 1990 I became a naturalized Canadian Citizen, best move ever. I have never lived, worked, invested in the US. I have holidayed there but no longer than 3 weeks.
After I naturalized I became a subcontractor for the Canadian military, DND, I had to swear to secrecy and allegiance. I have put the dates on my DS4079 and written the oaths I swore to. I feel that it would be a breach of what I signed if I supply a copy of the documents because of the details. What happens if they ask for them when I show up for my relinquishing appointment. Should I get the 4079 notarized by a lawyer before I go to the Consulate? Any advice will be appreciated.
@oktc971. If you relinquish under section 1 (naturalization), you don’t even need to go into the details of the oaths. You just show proof of naturalization and say you intended to relinquish (but you can not have done anything a US citizen would do after that time—taxes, renew passport, vote, maintain ties to the US) If you are trying to relinquish under section 2 (oaths), they generally require proof of the oath taken. Generally an oral statement is insufficient…they generally will only recognize written proof of an oath taken. Regarding what to write on DS-4079 vis-a-vis your confidential agreement, you probably should consult with a lawyer first.
@OKTC
If you relinquished under s. (1) upon naturalising in 1990, you were no longer a US citizen at the time you took the work-related oath of allegiance.
Therefore, the work-related oath is not the basis of your claim. It just illustrates a tie (one of your many) to Canada. As an s(1) relinquishment, your citizenship document/s will be your proof of your claim.
Note that question 11(3), regarding government employment, asks you to describe the oath taken in relation to govt employment, but doesn’t ask you to provide a copy of it. Whereas Question 9(a) asks you to both describe an oath and “If you have a copy of the oath please attach it” — I didn’t have a copy and had no problems. The evidence used in a s.(1) claim is the proof that the naturalisation occutred and the date on which it occurred.
You will sign and swear your 4079 before the vice consul at your meeting. That’s indicated on pages 4 and 5 of it.
@OKTC I didn’t provide proof/copy of the oath I took on becoming Canadian, only wrote in the wording of the oath on line 9A of DS 4079. I didn’t remember what it was and just googled for the information. I had no problem getting my CLN backdated to 1990 and never needed a lawyer.
Right, now I can do my report for my renunciation at the Bern embassy in Switzerland.
On 10th December 2012 I sent an e-mail to the embassy requesting the necessary paperwork and received this back from them by e-mail on the 11th.
Due to the holidays and follow-up visits for a recent hospital stay by my OH I didn’t get around to ringing the embassy for an appointment until the 28th January 2013. The first free slot was 10am on the 4th March, which I booked.
On 18th February I sent off the questionnaire and my US and British passport details as per the instructions.
4th March I arrived a bit early at the embassy feeling somewhat nervous. After clearing security (my pedometer caused problems, but eventually they agreed to hang on to it for me to collect later) I was directed to wait in the reception area until I was called. I had to wait about 15 minutes before my name was called and I could go to the window to check the paperwork was correct. After I’d done that I was directed around the corner to the payment window to pay the $450 fee. Then it was back to reception to sit and wait until I was called again. This took another 40 minutes until the Vice Consul arrived; he dealt with a couple of people before me even though I’d arrived before they did. He read out the Oath and I said “I do”, then we both signed the Oath and Statement of Understanding. No questions and no need for all the extra backup documents I took with me just in case. At 1121am on the 4th March 2013 I ceased to be an American.
The staff were pleasant throughout my visit. I didn’t see anyone else renouncing, but the Vice Consul did say to one woman that he’d included the form necessary for giving up her green card if she wanted to later in the documents they’d received. The V-C told me it would take about 2-3 months for the CLN to be approved and sent back. So I was expecting to hear it had been returned anytime from late April onwards.
As I was going on holiday on the 15th April for a couple of weeks I e-mailed the embassy on the 9th to ask how the CLN would be delivered because I was worried that if it came earlier than expected it might need to be signed for and my post was going to be held for me at the post office while I was away. They e-mailed back and said the CLN had been approved and returned and would ready to send out later that week, but they would hold on to it for me. I agreed that would be fine for me. I then remembered that my OH had a doctor’s appointment on the 11th and would be off work that day so I e-mailed the embassy back to ask if it would be possible to collect the CLN that day. Luckily for me they said that was okay, it would be ready for me to collect. So we went to Bern on the afternoon of the 11th April and picked it up. I double checked that I had the CLN, Oath, Statement of Understanding and cancelled US passport before I left the embassy as I didn’t want to go through the security hassle again if anything was missing, but all the paperwork was there so I left the embassy as a very happy person.
Altogether the process took exactly 4 months.
Relinquishment Report
Calgary Consulate
May 8, 2013
Consulate service rating A+++
I live in Victoria BC and flew to Calgary to apply for my backdated certificate of loss of nationality. I had originally booked my appointment online for a date in early April, however I was later advised by a Calgary-based lawyer that I had spoken with that you need to book relinquishment appointments via email in Calgary. Once I made contact with the Consulate via email, they confirmed that the date I had booked online for April would not work, and they offered me the next available spot, which was May 8th at 8:30 am. I was sent a short form to full in and return by email.
Two days before my appointment, the supervisor of the American Services Unit that I had been dealing with sent me an email asking for me to fax or email my completed DS-4079 so that they could prepare the documents in advance of my arrival. The Supervisor knew that I am university professor and was in the midst of teaching full time, and so would be flying in the night before my appointment, and needing to return at noon on the day of the appointment so that I could get back to the classroom to teach that same afternoon. So I sent the unsigned form by email, along with all of my supporting documentation.
I parked in the lot at the City of Calgary parkade in the 3 hour parking zone and walked through city hall which is diagonally across the corner from the Rocky Mountain plaza building where the US Consulate is located. I arrived about 10 minutes early. I would suggest arriving at least 20 minutes early, as there are several security steps you need to go through before finally getting to the Consulate offices on the 10th floor.
The first screening is on the main floor. The security guard who was standing outside of the door asked why I was there, and then asked my name. When I told him my name, he said they had been expecting me. I had a rental car, and I could not take the key fob with me to the appointment for security reasons. They have a small number of little locked storage boxes along the wall for holding things the size of cell phones and keys, and so they put my keys in locked storage and held them for me. You then go through security screening, and once finished are directed to sit in a certain row of chairs. I was actually supposed to go through another line first for people who had an American Services appointment, and so was called to go check in with someone else. Again, they were expecting me. They asked how I would be paying for my renunciation, and I said I would not need to pay as I was there to apply for a retroactive relinquishment. They were fine with that. You then go sit down in your designated row, and wait to be called. They call out names, you line up with your back against a wall in the order your name is called. Another security guard takes you upstairs, again asking you to line up in the same order you were in downstairs. You then get called one by one to pass through another security screening, this time being asked to take off watches and belts. You wait for a door to buzz, and then pull hard, it is heavy, and go inside to your designated seating rows which are at the front of the room. The last security person gives you a number, and you wait for your number to be called.
The first time I was called up I was asked to provide my last US passport from the 80’s, my current Canadian passport, and my US birth certificate. I then sat down for a while. I could see a male Consular official through the window, and could tell from the paper he was reading that he was reviewing my file. He was revising the documents, form 4079 form, and my personal statement, which I had decided to include. He took his time reading my statement, and I could tell that he went back to it several times. I was then called up to the window. I first needed to raise my right hand and swear that everything that I had put on the form and in my letter was true, and that I would answer questions truthfully. I said, of course. He then asked me some questions about my personal statement. His questions were all fair and reasonable. I had indicated in my letter that at one point early in my career I was told that if I wanted to work overseas for my employer, it would be better to be a Canadian than a US citizen. I explained that was true, but that it was not the main reason for becoming a Canadian. I had also indicated in my letter that I had spoken at length with my parents about becoming a Canadian, and that while they were very patriotic Americans, they felt you could owe allegiance to only one country, and should participate fully as a citizen in the country where you lived. I told them it was important to me that my parents support and understand my decision to give up my US citizenship by coming a Canadian. I had also explained in my letter that I had received a letter from the US government when I applied for Canadian citizenship explaining that by taking a Canadian oath of citizenship I would loose my US citizenship (I applied in 1984 & became a Canadian in 1985). I explained in my letter and to the Consular official that I had made a privacy request to look for the letter in my citizenship file, and had filed an access to information request to the library and archives Canada, but could not find a copy of the letter. My sense was that the consular official was probing on points to confirm that I had voluntarily and intentionally given up my US citizenship. I confirmed that it was my clear intention to become a Canadian and in doing so to give up my US citizenship. He asked if, since becoming Canadian, I had ever done anything that a US citizen would do, such as pay US taxes or vote in US elections. I said no. These questions were reasonable given the Consular official’s role. In my letter I had also stated that for years I had been hassled about why I was not traveling on a US passport when I had been born in the US. I said that I always replied, because I am Canadian. I explained that this line of questioning became so uncomfortable for a period of time that I avoided going to or through the US altogether. The Consular official apologized for that treatment, and explained the presumption behind the line of questioning by the border officials – I was impressed with his professionalism in how he discussed this with me. He was quite genuine in his comments. Unlike others who have reported on this site, I was not asked why I was coming forward at this time. I had included this information in the conclusion to my accompanying statement, where I said that I was coming forward to apply for a retroactive certificate of loss of nationality because I had only recently learned that this was possible.
The Consular official gave me a series of forms to sign, he signed them as well, and he then explained that the determination would be made in Washington and it would take a few months.
He said that in the mean time, if I was going to travel to the US, I could take a copy of an email from the Consulate confirming my relinquishment appointment as evidence that I had already gone through the process, and that should suffice.
I thanked the Consulate rep (I think he might have been the Vice-Consul), and asked him to thank the Supervisor of American Services Unit for helping to expedite the process for me today. She had clearly gone out of her way to ensure that I got through quickly, as all of the staff that I dealt with knew I was under a time crunch and had come from out of town.
I left at 9:10 am. I got back to my car only to realize I had forgotten my keys at security. I went back, and the security guard said he had not seen anyone get through so quickly before.
The day is done, and I am now back in Victoria.
I am planning a Canada day party this year.