Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
@ToykoRose, congratulations! 9/11 will be a day of celebration for you now.
Thank you Medea. Actually it felt very anticlimactic, since I did not have any of the problems in getting an appointment that others have reported. I imagine I’ll feel the same way when the CLN comes, It will be nice to finalise my Japanese records, but as I’ve said, since place of birth does not appear on any of the standard forms of ID in Japan, I cannot imagine anywhere I would need to present the CLN except for that one time.
It is ironic, and sad, that many of those who most need a CLN have such difficulty in getting an appointment to relinquish or renounce. It is a bit embarrassing how easy it was here in Osaka.
@ Tokyo Rose,
Glad to hear everything went smoothly. They sound quite efficient and pleasant to deal with at Osaka. Thanks much for your detailed report!
@ pacifica777
I’m only sorry that the info will not be useful reference to many. But I hope that it will provide some support, as reading the others posts in the Directory did for me.
Can you please email me at ss4510@columbia.edu? I’m a journalist working on a story and I have some questions for you! Thanks!
I hope krackerjack121′ s interesting experience in Tijuana does not get overlooked, as I think it was only posted in
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/08/27/state-department-to-hike-renunciation-fees-to-us2350-says-no-public-benefit-in-respecting-human-right-to-change-nationality/comment-page-12/#comments
If I had the money, I’d tell my wife that she’s renouncing in Osaka. Then we could visit my relatives at the same time. Never been to Japan; not even to visit my relatives.
Congratulations on getting out of the noose, Tokyo Rose. それは素晴らしいです
@ The_Animal
日系人ですか？
Thanks. My only regret is that it took me more than 35 years of living here to finally decide to naturalise. If I had paid more attention and foreseen the coming of the IRS Apocalypse I could have done this a lot earlier and saved myself a lot of worry.
After the rather tedious naturalisation process (although at 8 months total much faster than what I’ve heard for most countries), the meeting at the US Consulate was about as eventful as renewing a passport. It is my final tax filing that I dread…
I wish you luck with your wife’s situation, and you never know, maybe someday you’ll have an opportunity for a 里帰り.
Hai, Nikkeijin desu. 🙂 Born to an Issei and a Nisei. I’m not fluent in Japanese. My grandmother who taught me Japanese in my youth would be appalled at how much I’ve forgotten. I’m fluent in Google Translate. 😀
My wife is America-jin and Caucasian so settling down in Japan is probably out even though my family (extended) owns property in Japan and as the first-son of the family it WAS originally supposed to go to me. My name is on the koseki, but I would have to naturalize as a Japanese Citizen as I’m over 18 by quite a number of years (26 yrs over).
Actually, if I’m not mistaken, if you’re on the koseki you can have Japanese citizenship any time you want to claim it (and don’t worry, Japan will not try to tax you on your Canadian income). Even your children should be able to obtain Japanese citizenship by a simpler method than naturalization. Of course, since Japan does not officially allow dual citizenship, you would have to make a “choice”, which goes on the koseki, but they are not too strict in asking for proof of relinquishing the other citizenship for “pure-born” like yourself. Even some people who naturalise don’t give up their old nationality and hide the fact from the Japanese gov.
Its interesting how people migrate. I’ve often wondered if I had some claim on Canadian citizenship, since my father was born in Alberta. His parents were both Canadian born, but naturalised to the US before he was born. The were “visiting” (for something like a year or so) back in Canada when he was born. But it was more than 100 years ago, and he never even had a birth certificate, just a baptismal certificate. Later on in life his only real proof to being an American was that he had been “living in the town for a long time and was registered to vote”.
And there your are, half nissei and half sansei (a 2 1/2 see?). And here I am, an American-born Caucasian having lived in Japan since I was about 23, more than 36 years now.
Again, I hope that things work out for you and that you someday get to bring you wife, and maybe children too, on a visit to Japan.
@TokyoRose
I think I may have mentioned this to you before. You could very well be Canadian:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp
I’m not sure how the Canadian government would deal with having only a baptismal certificate for your father, but considering that’s all that was issued for many at the time they would possibly allow you to use it as proof, or you may need to apply to the Alberta provincial government for a proper birth certificate prior to your citizenship application.
@ Bubblebustin
Thank you very much. It would make me very proud to think that I might be Canadian! How ironic life can be! There was a time in my life when I would have said that there was very little difference between America and Canada. Then I gradually came to realize how Canada was superior in so many ways. If at that time I really thought it might have been possible to obtain Canadian citizenship, then my life, and that of my wife might have turned out different. I eventually came to realise that I would never return to the US, but if “returning” to Canada had been an option, the choice might have been different.
But I am satisfied in the choice I have made. The choice to be only Japanese (although to be honest it is difficult for a Caucasian to become really “Japanese”, but then, it was difficult for The Animal’s ancestors to become really “American”; it all has to start somewhere). And I have no interest in deceiving the Japanese government with a “hidden” second nationality.
Still, I would be proud to lay some small claim to a Canadian heritage, even if it a heritage I have never known. Maybe this would be a could image of the concept of “return”.
As Petros has oft said, migration is a human right, a right the the US, specifically through the IRS, seems determined to deny.
😀 Actually my ancestors were Canadian. Maternal Grandfather and Grandmother emigrated from Japan to Vancouver, Canada. My father emigrated to Vancouver in 1956. My wife is the one with US clinging indicia. 🙂 My apologies for not stating that clearly. すみません 混乱を許しなさい
@TokyoRose
Well, it’s maybe nice for you to know that if things don’t work out in Japan, there’s a possibility that you could always ‘return’ to Canada 😉
I like to post that link to the changes in Canada’s citizenship act just so that people know that they may have become citizens at birth as a result. Dual citizens at birth are exempt from the US exit tax under certain circumstances.
No Animal, my apologies. I thought I had read that your grandparents and mother were treated as second-class US citizens and right away I assumed the WW II iternments (or did Canada allow the US to do that to Canadian citizens as well?).
I had my relinquishment appt at the Calgary Consul Aug 18, 2014 so you can add that to your list if you wish. It was not a straight forward relinquishment like taking the oath when naturalizing so it may take even longer to be dealt with. I relinquished on the basis of Section 350 of the 1952 INA. The Consul recommended that it be rejected which is very discouraging but he clearly did not seem to understand the law and had not read my DS-4079 at the time of my meeting. As the Consul Staffer tried to persuade me to renounce rather than relinquish I also wondered if they just didn’t want to deal with another complicated relinquishment. I still believe that the law is in my favor so I am trying to keep my hope up.
I wanted others to be forewarned that they may be trying to discourage people from relinquishing to try to decrease their load. I’m just not sure.
Thank you to everyone at Brock for all your help and support and especially @WhatAmI for directing me to 350!
@Cheryl,
Nice to hear from you. I was wondering if you went ahead with your INA 350 claim.
Did the consul indicate why he was recommending against your claim? For example, I can think of 2 angles from their point of view: 1, INA was repealed in 1978 (even though prospectively only) or 2, he didn’t feel that your case personally qualified for INA 350 at the time. If I remember correctly, you did turn 25 before Oct 10, 1978?
@WhatAmI
I so appreciated your help. No where in my search of Brock sites or 1952 INA sites did I run across sec350. I’m sure people in my situation are not very common but maybe this info should be included somewhere in the General documents.
I first met with a staffer and then the consul. The official tried to persuade me to renounce instead as she didn’t think I met the 4th requirement. I was surprised and stated the 3 requirements I was aware of and she said oh yes I didn’t meet the “benefits of Canadian citizenship” which is the 2cd criteria. When I asked if there was a 4th requirement she wouldn’t answer. When I met with the consul he said the exact same thing and also wouldn’t tell me what the 4th criteria was because there isn’t one.
In my application I said the benefits were that in the time between my registration of birth abroad and Oct 10, 1978 I voted in a municipal and provincial election, was admitted to a post secondary program requiring Canadian citizenship, and had access to universal health care (I did not mention that I was in hospital twice during that time). I did not get a passport until 1982.
The only thing INA 349 says is whether you had the intention of relinquishing when you commit potentially relinquishing acts. All this bs about criteria is outside the scope of the law.
@whatAmI continued
When I asked her what benefits besides using consular services or working for government there might be she replied “that’s for you to figure out”. Nice!!
The staffer said that as I was a landed immigrant before and had health care before I was a citizen that universal health care wouldn’t count. When I pointed out that once I was registered as a Canadian born abroad that my student VISA and landed immigrant status were unnecessary she didn’t seem moved. Indeed, those files were removed by the government from my citizenship and immigration file which was included in my application.
Anyway, they didn’t question the use of section 350 or that it was my intent to lose my US nationality so although I was very discouraged, I have hope that it will turn out. I believe I met the criteria unless the “benefits” requirement is an “escape clause.” Time will tell.
At the time of my appt the consul wouldn’t tell me what his recommendation would be. Later I wrote and asked and was informed he recommended rejecting it but they would not tell me the reasons.
Thanks again. I’m still worrying a lot but trying to get a handle on it. Fingers crossed. I’ve donated to the cause and will again.
@petros
I was using section 350 not 349. 350 is for dual nationals at birth and requires other criteria including benefit of citizenship and 3 years living in Canada after age 25.
@petros
I’m sorry, I made a typo…I had to have lived in Canada for 3 years after age 22. The law was repealed Oct 10, 1978. I was 25 June 12,1978 so just got in under the wire…what a ridiculous state of affairs.
@Petros,
We’re talking about INA 350, which only applies to persons who have been dual since birth. INA specifically talks about recieving benefits of foreign citizenship while not returning to the US before age 25. So, the criteria is indeed an issue for INA 350, but of course there isn’t a list of benefits anywhere.
@Cheryl,
As usual, we can only guess. The FAM simply says for the consulate to forward INA 350 claims to Washington. My guess is that the staff and consuls outside of Washington don’t know much about INA 350 and I’d not worry about their statements and recommendations. For example, they didn’t even seem to understand that you really were a citizen since birth. You’re in the hands of the Washington people, and you’re the first that we know of to test this claim.
Before it was repealed, INA 350 was used to strip people of their USC against their will, especially children born overseas. Now here we are trying to use it as a relinquishing act. I suppose that’s confusing for them. It’s simple for us, however. We knew by living in our home countries and not taking an oath to the US to _keep_ USC, we were intentionally letting go of our USC because that’s what the law was at the time. It was not repealed retroactively in 1978, so what reason on earth could they have to deny the claim?
Well, from their point of view 1) the Supreme Court decided such laws (that stripped citizenship) were unconstitutional and they were repealed or changed and 2) none of them can fathom that any USC would want to give it up.
@ Petros,
You’re correct, but she’s not under s. 349. She under s. 350, which does have claiming the benefits of the foreign state as a criteria (shouldn’t be a problem as she’d apparently done that.) That section is no longer in effect, but was at that time.
That’s ridiculous of the consul basing a negative recommendation on some 4th criteria, which apparently doesn’t exist. (It’s not in the section and the consul couldn’t even say what it is, so it sounds non-existent to me.) Hopefully, this will work out in the end (that is when the file is reviewed in DC) because the criteria he used doesn’t exist. So far the 3 negative recommendation cases Brockers had where the neg rec was based on a point of law, the CLN was approved. With the 1 neg rec which was upheld, the case was more subjective as it dealt with passport renewal and use.
@pacifica777,
There was the case of Benedict Arnold Be Me, where he made the claim of relinquishing as a minor when he naturalized as a Canadian. They initially refused to submit it to Washington. He stood his ground, sat in the waiting room for another 45 minutes, and was called up and told that they would send it to DC. It was ultimately denied, but the DC lawyers invited him to change his claim to one of working for the (provincial) government, and he eventually got his CLN based on that. I’ve forgotten offhand if his government employment was written into his original case history or submitted later once his lawyer became involved.
My point is just that as far as I know, there has been no success in claiming relinquishment as a minor. I know others have tried after Benedict, but I’m not sure if any actually got sent to DC.
In all other cases and claims other than relinquishment as a minor, I totally agree that the consulate’s negative recommendation is not a death sentence at all and I would continue to be optimistic as you pointed out!