Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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I wanted to pass along my experience of visiting the US Consulate earlier this week to renounce my US citizenship. I live closer to Ottawa than Montreal but booked at the Consulate in Montreal because They had appointments that better fit my work schedule. After telling the Consulate official why I was there, her first question was whether I was from the Montreal area. I said that I actually lived closer to Ottawa and explained why I booked the appointment in Montreal. She told me that under a new policy issued last week, renunciations can only be done at whatever Consulate is closest to where the person lives and I would have to go to the Embassy in Ottawa if I wanted to renounce. I was also told that as of last week, all renunciations require two visits. When I questioned the requirement that I had to go to the Embassy in Ottawa, I received no further information. The Consulate official looked up the appointment schedule for Ottawa and told me there was an appointment available next week and she would book it for me if I wished. I felt like I really did not have option at that point so I said yes. She booked the appointment and sent me on my way. The staff were very professional and polite but made it very clear that I would not be provided any service by the Consulate in Montreal because I live closer to the Embassy in Ottawa. It was also made clear that all renunciations would require two consular visits as of last week.
Thanks Ottawan. Did you go there to indicate that you had relinquished your US citizenship or to renounce?
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/
The process of informing the Consulate of a relinquishment should not require a particular Consulate nor does it require two visits, but simply informing a consular official in writing.
I went to renounce as I have looked at the information on relinquishing, here and elsewhere, and have determined that in my case it would be an uphill battle to argue relinquishment. I really just want to rid myself of the albatross of dual citizenship, even if it means paying the toll ($450).
Thanks for the info, Ottawan.
A new policy? This is weird and not good. Is this new policy for the consulates in Canada or a new policy for all consulates around the world? Is it possible that this employee was misinformed?
At the end of last year they wanted to streamline things (switching from 2 visit to 1 visit for both renunciation and relinquishment), now they want to drag it out — what’s going on?
Meanwhile in November 2012, Calgary411 and myself spoke with Sylvia D. Johnson, the Consul General for Canada, who said, amongst other things, that all consulates in Canada had been directed to switch to one visit in November 2012. Some consulates in Canada had already switched to 1 visit before then, as had some in other parts of the world (although Vancouver remained with 2 visits even after November 2012).
I am also aware of a written statement by the director of the DC office that issues the CLN stating that one could expatriate at any consulate.
I am going to follow up on this development right away and report back. And, of course, Ottawan or anyone else, if you have any more light to shed, please do!
@Pacifica—Not sure if you read my last comments in Part 1, but I’m apparently waiting for my third appointment to relinquish. I already turned in a signed DS-4079, but I did not sign the statement of consequences in front of him after being to go home and think about it. (He said I did an affirmative action renewing a passport). I e-mailed him a few days ago, left a voicemail yesterday and the consul still hasn’t called me back. I also sent him more arguments that I relinquished. Still, all I’m getting is silence from the consulate at this point. I’ll wait a week then make an appointment I guess if I don’t hear.
When the consulate official first mentioned that under their policy a renunciation required two visits I took it as an attempt to discourage me from trying to proceed with the appointment in Montreal as she said that I would have to come all the way back to Montreal for the second appointment. At that point I explained that I had already completed , but not signed, the 4079 and 4080, as well as reviewing the 4081, 4082 and 4083 and had given serious consideration to my decision. Her response was that it did not matter – two visits were still required.
I know that some US Embassy websites, Australia’s for example, specifically state that renunciations require two visits and that they must be done at the consulate serving the person’s area. The Canadian Embassy site provides very little information on renouncing or relinquishing.
If I had to guess what is going on, the Montreal Consulate is getting frustrated with the volume of people going there for services such as renunciations/relinquishment from the Ottawa area. I have not been able to find any ” new policy” to the effect of what I was told on either State or the Canadian Embassy websites.
Just to clarify my last post – it was when the official was telling me that it did not matter that I had already completed the required forms that she referred to the “new policy”.
Thanks, Ottawan, for your further information. Much appreciated! .
I have been in contact with someone who is looking into it. They will be getting back to me with further information. I’ll wait til then to post in detail to make sure I have it accurately.
From what I’ve learned so far, however, I do want to let you and everyone know that it appears that what occurred is a Montréal-only matter and is not related to any other locations and not a policy directive coming down from HQ.
As soon as I get complete clarification, I’ll post.
@ BenPloni,
It’s lousy that you’re not hearing in reply to your e-mail and voice mail.
You’ve obviously researched and presented your points, so hopefully he’s just waiting on reply from DC. Still a quick short reply e-mail to you would have been in order, in my opinion.
Not to jump the gun, as you haven’t heard anything, but I guess you’ve been thinking about a Plan B, to pursue the relinquishment or renounce. Some thoughts on those:
So far, I haven’t read yet of anyone who has opted to continue with a relinquishment after the vice consul recommended against it on a substantive matter (though I would think it happens), so in terms of pursuing I’m not sure what the best plan B would be. (My matter, which I did contest and was going to fight to the last ditch, was not dealing with the merits of my case, but with the applicable law and procedure as they were contending I could not have relinquished because of the law itself.)
I know of three Brockers who were told by consular officials that they did not meet the criteria for a relinquishment and in those cases, the people were satisfied that the consular official’s opinion was valid in law, and renounced. One other person chose not to proceed at all. And at least one person whose relinquishment case was a bit short of a slam-dunk went straight for renunciation for the convenience of it.
So of course the renunciation option is always open, and for some the do nothing option. But if I felt firmly that I had a case and that the official’s opinion was incorrect or capricious, I would pursue the matter. I think it really depends on the case itself and on the person’s own analysis of their case and what they determine is the best choice for them.
The darn problem we relinquishers have is that we’re all trailblazers if we have an odd case and/or a malinformed (or capricious) consular official, because pretty much nobody ever knew about CLNs til pretty recently, so we’re collectively learning as we go.
I think the first step in any CLN application dispute would be to present your case to the head of ACS at your consulate. And if that doesn’t work, Consul General for your country, or the Director for your region at the ACS office at DoS in DC, or possibly the Director of ACS Policy Review and Interagency Liaison at DoS in DC, as they’re involved in the CLN approval process (and appear to be the legal department, not sure; I’m trying to find out more specifically just what they do, but I know they have assisted a few people with information regarding CLN matters and they stamp the approved CLNs).
Another possibility could be to try a different consulate. One thing I’m not sure about that, though, is exactly what is on a person’s database file, and if everything’s there, if one consulate would want to override the opinion of another consulate. But I don’t know. I’d probably go vertically rather than laterally, but we’re all different in how we choose to deal with things.
Basically, I don’t know more than anybody else, maybe a little bit more than most people but not much. I had to I do a lot of researching into and analysing recourses and strategy, though, because of what happened to me last winter, and that experience definitely piqued what became a continuing interest in researching expatriation procedure and tracking consulates, so I keep on trying to find out more. So, keep us posted and I and others will pitch in what assistance we can.
I hope, though, that he’s just awaiting a reply and you’ll have good news soon.
Some updates:
I live in Victoria BC, and am going to Calgary to request a CLN (relinquish), as I could not get an appointment in Vancouver.
The Vancouver office told me to book an appointment online “As a first step, please make an appointment on our website, under Notarial and Other Services. Slots for this category of appointment are in high demand and are fully booked. You will need to monitor the availability and then make your appointment when a slot becomes available. We are unable to project when this will occur and therefore are unable to give you a probable time. We request your patience.”
I used the same process to book an appointment in Calgary, and am booked for April 5th at 10 am. Based on the confirmed booking, I booked my flight to Calgary.
In speaking with a lawyer in Calgary today, he advised that I might have to book an appointment for relinquishment using a different process. He contacted his contact at the Calgary office, who wrote to me advising that I have to make an appointment through them. I have now written to then explaining that I had booked an appointment using the process the Vancouver Consulate told me to follow. So…I will wait for the reply from Calgary consulate, but it seems as if I may have to book another appointment, and book another flight to Calgary.
I just wanted to let others know about the difference in procedures between consulates for booking appointments. All of the cases reported from the Calgary consulate to date in the Brock Consulate Directory are for renunciations, and so I don’t know if there are different procedures for making a relinquishment appointment.
@Lagoon,
Good to hear you have an appointment (or are close to having one). Two Brockers relinquished at Calgary. I don’t think they described their booking procedure, but maybe they’ll see your comment and post about it and Calgary411 may have some useful info on this. Meanwhile their stories might be useful in terms of what to expect there (Dave 2012.06, Hijacked 2012.10). At any rate, everyone seems to be finding Calgary a fine consulate to interact with.
@ Pacifica, thanks I will go back and look for those two stories, and post an update once I hear back from the Calgary consulate.
@Lagoon,
I am glad to see your comment today, reporting that three lawyers have indicated you have a case for claiming your relinquishment of US citizenship. I am also glad that you are wisely booking an appointment in Calgary rather than waiting for Vancouver.
My experience and others reporting here show that Calgary has been, for us, very positive. Those we dealt with at the Calgary US Consulate were efficient and respectful. Their procedures seem to me more sensible than those practiced at any other Canadian consulate. Why all Canadian consulates do not follow the same procedures is a quandry.
I’d suggest you email the Calgary Consulate at Calgary-ACS@state.gov to request your appointment for claiming relinquishment. My experience was that they got back to me within a day or two with further instructions and, soon, confirmation of my and my husband’s appointments (for renunciation). I believe they reserve one or two afternoons for such appointments.
Good luck on your next steps. Let us know how things are going for your process.
@all,
Discouraging news re the Montreal consulate. Are they taking a page out of the Vancouver Consulate’s Manual? How soon before other consulates follow suit, I wonder. My belief is that as time moves on and more and more ‘born in the USA’ individuals living here in Canada, find out about FATCA etc., that consulates are most likely being inundated with requests for appointments to either prove a former relinquishment or renounce.
One thing for sure is when your country’s debt is as high as theirs is, they are not going to hire more people to handle the influx of people wanting to renounce/relinquish. They are stopping the ‘sacred’ Saturday mail delivery to save money; surely they won’t hire more people at their consulates and embassies!
@Lagoon
You wrote: “All of the cases reported from the Calgary consulate to date in the Brock Consulate Directory are for renunciations, and so I don’t know if there are different procedures for making a relinquishment appointment.”
I was one of the people who relinquished in Calgary. My appointment was made through a lawyer, so I’m not sure what procedure he used to book the appointment. However, it is my impression that they don’t make a lot of distinction about whether you are showing up to renounce or relinquish when the appointment is first made. They sent me the following questionnaire which I had to fill out ahead of time and as you can see, relinquishing is not mentioned. When I filled it out I crossed out all references to “renouncing” and wrote in “relinquishing” just to make sure they knew what I was coming for.
RENUNCIATION QUESTIONNAIRE
IF YOU WISH TO RENOUNCE YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP PLEASE PROVIDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION:
1. YOUR FULL LEGAL NAME (including former names):
2. DATE & PLACE OF BIRTH:
3. SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER:
4. CURRENT LOCAL MAILING ADDRESS:
5. CURRENT TELEPHONE # HOME ____ – ____ – ______ OTHER ____ – ____ – ______
6. LAST ADDRESS IN U.S.
8. DATES OF RESIDENCE IN U.S.
9. ACQUIRED U.S. CITIZENSHIP BY BIRTH IN U.S. OR, ABROAD TO ONE/TWO U.S. PARENTS. (please circle appropriate answer)
10. ACQUIRED U.S. CITIZENSHIP BY NATURALIZATION:
DATE __________________________ PLACE _____________________________________
11. OTHER NATIONALITY: ___________________- DATE ACQUIRED: _______________
12. WILL YOU BE PROVIDING A WRITTEN STATEMENT REGARDING YOUR REASONS FOR RENOUNCING YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP? –____ YES ____ NO
(if yes, please attach your written statement)
13. WHEN YOU TAKE THE OATH OF RENUNCIATION WILL YOU
____ SWEAR, OR ____ AFFIRM, TO THE OATH?
Also I was sent an e-mail saying that a $450 fee was required, but I knew from Brock that this wasn’t the case, and indeed no mention was made of a fee at the actual appointment. I hope they will honour your April 5th date and you won’t have to alter your travel plans.
Incidentally I also live in BC and went to Calgary because I knew Vancouver was requiring two appointments to relinquish. At the time I didn’t know it was virtually impossible to get into the Vancouver consulate at all!
@Lagoon, I’d advise filling out a DS-4079 relinquishment with all your information (don’t sign it though!), scan it, and e-mail it back to them so they have it ready to go when you go to your appointment. It might help speed things up.
About the Montreal consulate :
After reading Ottawan’s account of his trip to the Montreal consulate, I decided to push a little more concerning my own upcoming appointment with them on Feb. 28.
I have exchanged messages with them, both thru the online form and via email. Each time I mention relinquishment with ref to the proper INA paragraph. Twice I got their standard package response abount renunciation with mention of the $450 fee and finally a personalozed email stating that they had all my messages, that the appointment was confirmed and that they could see that I had gooten all the requisite info. I wrote back confirming I would be there but remarked I had not received info on relinquishment bitnthat I would presume I would be meeting with someone who would understand the procedure.
So I sent them this:
Re: February 28 appointment.
I have not received the information required for relinquishment under INA s.349(a)(1) or (2).
You have sent info concerning formal renunciation under INA s.349(a)(5), which is not the same thing. (see 7 FAM 1220.)
I don’t mean to sound pushy, but I think it would save time if I was dealing with someone who knew in advance what the appointment is for.
Thank you for your kind attention,
Of course, I actually was being a little pushy 😉
@all
Thanks for your guidance, and I’ve had a chance to go back and re-read the cases related to relinquishment at the Calgary consulate. I am hoping to hear back from the Calgary consulate this week about whether or not my existing appointment will suffice.
@Old and SImple,
I’m updating the Consulate Report Directory. Would you like me to include your Montréal comments now or wait until after your appointment.? Thanks.
PS. Very pleasantly worded pushiness 🙂
@Lagoon,
I hope you hear back from Calgary consulate quickly. As I am planning on asking to complete my file (already opened in Vancouver) at the Calgary consulate, I will be eager to hear that you will be allowed to go to Calgary. Ottawan’s report re Montreal was rather disconcerting!
Pacifica, hi. Let’s wait. They may finally answer.
–update on relinquishment case–
As I previously mentioned, I explained to Consul smith at my second visit, I intended when I accepted Israeli citizenship in Feb 2002 to give up citizenship, and he didn’t think I did since I renewed a passport. I again explained that I thought that I had to enter/use a US passport/was considered a US citizen for travel purposes until I receive a CLN. At the end of the second meeting, he said “go home, think about it, take DS-4081, but do not sign, etc.” I tried getting in touch with him last week–unsuccessfully, sent another e-mail to ACS general e-mail today (I had previously tried his phone/personal e-mail since he gave me his business card).
In any event, he wrote back today
Dear —,
Thank you for your correspondence of February 18, 2013 regarding your possible loss of United States citizenship.
The U.S. Department of State is still reviewing your case, and this office has not yet received an answer as to whether or not you relinquished United States citizenship in February of 2002 when you accepted Israeli citizenship. Once we have received the Department of State’s decision on that point, we will notify you of the next steps, if any.
Sincerely,
Jerusalem ACS
Kirk G. Smith
Consul
U.S. Consulate General Jerusalem
RE: Consulate hours/days for booking relinquishment appointments in Calgary
I received information this morning (Feb 19th) about the days and times that you can book for a relinquishment appointment in Calgary. Unfortunately, as I followed the directions provided by the Vancouver consulate for booking a relinquishment appointment, I now have to pay for and book a second flight to Calgary. Here is the copy of their email to me:
“Unfortunately we are not able to see you on the April 5th appointment date. We are already fully booked as we have inherited many, many cases from Vancouver’s consular district. We are booking appointments the mornings of Tuesdays, Wednesday, and Thursdays. We have appointments open beginning the morning of May 8th. You can pick any morning from then on excluding the third Thursday of every month. Please indicate which morning you’d prefer and we’ll make every effort to book you in.”
To book an appointment in Calgary you need to email: Calgary-ACS@state.gov
@Lagoon,
Thanks so much for your above post. ‘We are already fully booked as we have inherited many, many cases from Vancouver’s consular district’. So interesting.
Those of us posting here on IBS, are obviously just “The tip of the Iceberg”. I wonder how many renunciations/relinquishment attempts there have been in the Vancouver consulate district.
Although you can not book until after May, Vancouver is not showing any appointments at all. I think I shall join the Calgary line.
I first contacted the U.S. embassy in London in late December 2012 about renunciations and in early January they emailed me directions on what copies of documents to send; I sent off these by ordinary post because the files took up too much memory to email as attachments.
About a week later they acknowledged receipt of said document copies, questionnaire, etc. They said that the waiting list for appointments would be for April and that they’ll contact me closer to the time about available dates. I get the impression that the first appointment will be over the phone with the second and hopefully final meeting at the Embassy itself. It’s been two weeks since I got this email so hope they’ll have arranged an appointment date within another couple of weeks…I worry that I’ll never hear back, *lol* 😛