Interesting consolidation of tweets discussing a possible move to #TTF for all the different groups of people classified as #Americansabroad https://t.co/M1dwgx1Sge
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) May 13, 2018
This post is motivated by the following Brock comment from “JC”. His comment concludes with:
So do we have a feature here on Brock to come up with stories about being proud Americans? So we may give them to Solomon.
Why not? Yes, let’s use this post to create a “Brock Feature” from expected comments. This can be the the “Isaac Brock Society” contribution to U.S. Tax Reform!
I realize that the Isaac Brock Society is not a site that is populated particularly by “Proud Americans” (am I wrong?). But, the idea of compiling a set of comments, about how U.S. tax policies have destroyed the lives of those who have attempted compliance could be valuable. They could be forwarded to all groups (RO, DA, ACA, FAWCO etc.) in this fight.
For once, let’s focus on those who are compliant!
I have a request though. Much of the focus on this and other sites is on people who have NOT complied with U.S. tax laws – usually because they have not bothered to enter the U.S. tax system. I don’t understand why those who have not entered the U.S. tax system have TAX problems. It seems clear that, those who have NOT complied, have NOT had their lives destroyed. They still have their pensions and their marriages. Noncompliant Americans abroad are in no danger of having their passports revoked (because those not in the U.S. tax system cannot have a tax debt). Noncomplaint Americans are in no danger of having their retirement savings stolen. Noncompliant Americans have no fear of crossing the border. But, I digress …
The reality of U.S. tax compliance for Americans abroad
It is those unfortunate people who have complied (with the assistance of the “very best” U.S. tax advisors), who have suffered the most. Think of all those who were ushered into OVDP. Think of those who entered “Streamlined” with their Canadian Controlled Private Corporations. After being assured that the “business earnings” were not subject to U.S. taxation, they are NOW retroactively subject to the transition tax. Think of the “transition tax” (punishment for your past). Think of GILTI (punishment for your future). Only those who have filed U.S. taxes generally and Form 5471 in particular are subject to the great “pension confiscation”. Those who have not complied will still have a happy retirement.
U.S. citizenship is primarily about penalties: Comparing the “penalties” for noncompliance with the “penalties” for compliance
Penalties for noncompliance: For years people have been forced to listen to a constant noise (that’s the problem with the internet isn’t it) warning people about the penalties for noncompliance. These are expressed in the language of either “tax crimes” or “form crimes”. Yes, the penalties for noncompliance are truly frightening! But, they are suffered randomly and sparingly. Let’s compare them to the …
Penalties for compliance: Nobody (don’t understand why) really talks about the “penalties” for compliance. They are real! They are NOT speculative! They are automatically assessed! Think I am kidding? Talk to anybody who is suffering the “transition tax” or somebody who has a real fear of “passport revocation”. Talk to somebody in Australia who has had problems with their Superannuation.
Americans abroad are subject to penalties no matter what they do. What were you thinking when you left the Homeland? You should be punished! And you are punished. Americans abroad are NOT subject to the same tax rules that Homelanders are subject to. They are subject to a different set of punitive rules. You should NOT be permitted to, simply leave the Homeland and expect those left behind, to pay your “fair share”! It is the duty of ALL Americans, wherever they may be, to support the Government of the United States (which as Cook v. Tait teaches – confers benefits to you wherever you may be).
Your experiences please …
Therefore, I think it would of great value to hear from those who have complied with – that Great Bible of American Life – the U.S. Internal Revenue Code (whether you have complied from inception/conception or whether you have recently come into compliance).
Remember that ALL U.S. citizens who were “Born In The USA” are presumptive “Tax Cheats By Birth”! This is because the USA confers citizenship by birth and imposes tax based only on citizenship.
Could you address the following 3 questions in your comment?
1. Why as a “nonresident” of the United States did you decide to enter the U.S. tax system? For example, did your accountant tell you do do it? Were you simply heeding “The Call Of The Condor?” Was your entry into the U.S. tax system associated with another significant life event (illness, divorce, etc.) Do you snap to attention when you hear the U.S. National Anthem?
2. How has U.S. tax compliance caused you specific damage (calling all “transition tax” victims and more)?
3. Will the proposed #TTFI bill (the one from Congressman Holding) solve your problems or not?
If you are not in U.S. tax compliance, you could comment on why you do not intend to enter the U.S. tax system. Were you lucky (probably) or clever (maybe)?
And now, turning it over to JC …
News from Twitter chat with Solomon Yue. He says we may see the TTFI legislation this coming week. One comment to that is ‘we have heard that before.’
It sounds like the treatment for Accidentals will be three years of compliance without FBAR & FATCA penalty and then may elect TTFI status. Comment to that: sounds like streamlined except 3 years instead of 5.
Karen says:
“Essentially, TTFI is saying go thru streamlined and then stop filing. For AA’s and LT expats that want to retain USC, this is a reasonable deal as long as they have no PFICs or CFCs or “foreign” pensions, or ….”
https://twitter.com/FixTheTaxTreaty/status/995328964901122050Point of information about the above: FBAR and FATCA 8938 still exist under TTFI – so still filing! However, I ask as 8938 requires specification of the line on the 1040 return income from specified assets appears, and if no return is required under TTFI then would that end 8938? The devil is in the detail.
Solomon Yue says he will ask the question about PFIC and its exemption. At least someone is listening (Solomon Yue). He has said before about the exemption of foreign pensions, yet it has always been in regards to after TTFI election, and not the 3 years compliance period before one may elect TTFI.
In terms of AA: he has stressed that the TTFI bill is about asking Congress to do something for those who wish to remain American citizens, as the best chance to get buy in from Congress. Then of course once passed he will focus on other changes. So it sounds like perhaps multiple bills: 1) TTFI, 2) remove transition tax and GILTI from US Corps overseas, 3) remove FBAR and FATCA for USP overseas, 4 or more) Dems have a few including one that eliminates Social Security WEP. All this and there is no precedent of passage of a single focused bill helping US Persons overseas.
I asked Solomon for a Preamble on the TTFI speaking about the injustices. He declined such preamble and it will be only to align with TTFC.
Re: PFIC. A thought of today is a new acronym is needed for this. I like the word “curse” today. So Punitive Foreign Investment Curse for U.S. persons living overseas, or PFIC treatment. Innocuous and purposeful sounding names for these things should be changed to more representative names. Else, IMO, we give in to the narrative of the U.S. Compliance-Congressional Industrial Complex. Of course a name including “curse” would never fly in compliance code with DNA predisposed toward compliance. But we may give it a nick name.
Re: Cursed Foreign Corporations. This is what SY says:
Regarding small business owners abroad: we need 3 things 2 be done 4 them: 1) Pass #TTFI 2 connect w/ #TTFC, 2) exempt them from the transition/GILTI tax, 3) allow them 2 elect S Corp pass-through (corporate salaries/distributions r reported as personal foreign-source income).
https://twitter.com/SolomonYue/status/995309965098340352Solomon Yue says that he likes this story about being Proud Americans, and has already used it:
Tamar says:
I’ve said this b4: I’ve raised my kids (Israeli expats) w/spoken English at home & proud of their US origins despite leaving as toddlers. One son refused any Army job that wld require him to renounce! Get rid of #CBT & expats can be proud US ambassadors & trade promoters again.
https://twitter.com/tdbho/status/994952184147120128So do we have a feature here on Brock to come up with stories about being proud Americans? So we may give them to Solomon.
Even though Congress doesn’t care about David’s outstanding letter, the rest of us do. There’s nothing we can do about it other than take comfort that we’re not alone. That’s not a reason to remove the best writing that was posted here in months. I wonder why Barbara removed it.
“best writing that was posted here in months” – Agreed.
Barbara that was an excellent letter and I hope you will reconsider and allow the admins to reinstate that comment.
Coming into compliance has affected me in minor ways, as compared to things that have affected me regardless of compliance. In some cases it’s hard to differentiate clearly between compliant and non compliant. And there is the reality that while one may try to comply, it may be impossible to be truly compliant. In some cases being compliant means filling in forms, but who can tell if we do it right? And in other cases, it’s form filling again, but voluntarily simplified.
Coming into compliance has affected me because I made a typo and had to endure 15 menacing letters from the IRS, asking for money that I did not owe. Took them almost a year to finally examine my case and leave me alone. It’s also costing me stress and money each year to file.
And of course coming into compliance has opened my eyes on risk factors. I’m not opening bank accounts, I’m not transforming my practice into a LLC, I’m not investing in funds, I’m not accepting credit cards…
Overall I can say my life is certainly not ruined, but being a USP is a daily consideration. Compliance adds to that, partly by awareness, partly because of financial risk.
“And there is the reality that while one may try to comply, it may be impossible to be truly compliant.”
That’s what the IRS’s Taxpayer Advocate told Congress in 2011.
“In some cases being compliant means filling in forms, but who can tell if we do it right?”
That’s what Donald Rumsfeld said.
https://twitter.com/RumsfeldOffice/status/456156891534483456/
That’s what I said too, but instead of Rumsfeld’s unknown unknowns, I had known unknowns. In the 1970’s Form 1116 made me divide a negative number by zero, but by 1979 those instructions changed to alleviate the problem. Like Form 1116 has a line for carryback and carryforward but no instructions on how to calculate it and the IRS couldn’t even explain it (they gave one example, among billions of other examples that would also work). Like the former Revenue Canada in the 1980’s having its own scandals and issuing so nonsensical an assessment that I couldn’t figure out the amount of tax accrued to write on Form 1116. Like a bank temporarily losing a passbook so my wife had to estimate interest (the bank found the passbook later). Like the Social Security Administration neither granting nor rejecting the application for an SSN for my wife, and after ITINs were invented the IRS rejected her applications. How could anyone other than a lawyer or judge guess that the law requires committing perjury, estimate an amount of interest and fabricate a social security number and declare under penalty of perjury that the forms are true and correct? Honest declarations bring penalties plus confiscation of withholdings.
OK I got penalized because I’m me and Donald Rumsfeld didn’t get penalized because he’s rich and famous. But it still doesn’t matter. If you’re rich and famous it doesn’t matter if you tell the truth or not, you’ll get off. If you’re an ordinary person and if you dare to tell the truth, you get slaughtered for it.
And to think that if I’d know to tell lies, I also could have completed each US return in 3 full days of work each year, instead of 20 full days. And to think that if I’d known to tell lies, I wouldn’t have this fight going on for fifteen years so far with no end in sight, and I wouldn’t have needed heart surgery.
Sauve qui peut.
I asked for my comment to be removed because this whole thread stopped being about its intended purpose after about the fourth or fifth comments, including a sidetrack discussion of “This may be off-topic but…” Hell yes it was off-topic, so why did you write it? And another about “But but but what about the non-compliant expats? Shouldn’t our plight be counted?” Of course it is…on every other f***ing thread on IBS. So why on earth should it be part of this discussion?
Go back and re-read the original post and then see whether anyone besides me actually answered it.
Sadly, I’m finding every thread on IBS becoming fractured. It’s become a room full of people shouting past each other’s shoulders. Still a LOT of great and necessary information, but sadly a lot of it is being buried in irrelevant, off-topic, repetitive and whiny quasi-discussions.
What we need is a pinned “General rant” post where all the above can take place, and off-topic detours on other posts can be moved there.
Sorry I missed Barbara’s post.
All here know too much about the injustices and it colours one’s outlook.
This might cheer you up: European governments starting up (unlike Canadian Government).
FATCA Legislation and its Application at International Level
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/604967/IPOL_STU(2018)604967_EN.pdf
yes, Sad Canadian maybe should have posted to another thread but why are people so freaking angry that he did post here? If I were new to Brock, had just stumbled across the site, I’d never come back. Just redirect the guy/gal without being snotty for the love of Pete. I hung around Brock for several months before I got up the courage to ask my question. I did look at the sidebar, but it didn’t answer my question. Signing authority on multiple accounts for a lawyer. I probably did post to the wrong thread. I came back because Patricia Moon reached out to me, was kind and most helpful.
@Fred (B)
Since day one , I’ve always been mystified as to why one would continue to fill out income tax forms year in year out while being a permanent resident elsewhere. I actually met someone who had been filing for over forty years . Now, that to me is a ” Proud American” and simply by performing that act without any patriotic chest beating . What other nationals would do that if required ,even on a long term ?
Simply put, why do you continue to file? No offense intended .Just curious.
Also, I was at one point naturalized but my sister is an american blueblood but we are both very long time citzens of Canada and do not file.
You can tell our patriotism and pride by whom we cheer for whenever a Canadian team plays the US.
Barbara’s rants aside, the IBS archives are excellent and these rants are essential in maintaining an “active” website.
@Ann #1
I am going to answer your question (at least from my perspective). In order to answer you, I will reference the various comments.
You ask:
I note that you were quite happy with the information that you manged to get from Brock.
@Barbara explains to those who simply can’t understand why she wanted her post removed:
Going back to the beginning of the Isaac Brock Society blog
This blog was started at the end of 2011 amidst the Obama era reign of terror that was (in conjunction with the tax compliance industry and media) being inflicted on Canadians of U.S origin. Many of them had been born in the United States and become Canadian citizens. At that time they were being told that:
1. They were in fact still U.S. citizens
2. That they were subject to U.S. taxes
3. That they owed back taxes
4. That were subject to life altering penalties.
At that time there were NO resources available to people who were under this kind of threat. Current readers of Brock have the luxury of hanging around Brock to benefit from the work that Brockers (mainly the founding members) had compiled for you for free. Understand that this information was not available at that time. There was nowhere for people to go at that time.
The founding members (not me) and authors (includes me) spent hours and hours researching and attempting to compile information, solutions and provide comfort for people who were under unimaginable fear/terror etc.
But it was NOT just the authors of the posts who provided the education (although they provided a lot of it). The comments were an integral part of the learning process. They added information, They evaluated thinking. They made suggestions. The result of this collaborative effort was that thousands of people, actually tens of thousands of people and perhaps many more, got the information and courage to make the decisions that they needed to make. The information that you refer to (which you regard as free and there for the taking) was the result of the collaborative efforts of many authors and many comments. The comments were a critical part of the research and educational process.
Brock was a great success. There was no more valuable source of information for people affected by these problems. It became the most authoritative site in the world. Today (based on this past work), I believe that Brock is a better source of information than any law or accounting firm. There are certain Brock authors and commenters who understand these issues far better than the “tax professionals” who reap the financial benefits. In addition, Brock is an excellent repository of the best work done by author/researchers (for example read the recent post about Andrew Grossman’s latest work). From a practical perspective, the work of Brock, has significantly influenced the lives of many people (saving them money, helping them renounce, separating fact from fiction and MOST IMPORTANTLY, GIVING THEM THEIR LIVES BACK!!!!!!)
In addition, the Isaac Brock Society spawned Lynne Swanson’s Maple Sandbox Blog. The Isaac Brock Society spawned the Alliance For the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (“ADCS”) which raised the money for and is running the FATCA lawsuit against the Government of Canada. (Keep January 2019 free. This is the month that the trial will take place.)
Who are the people who built Brock?
Petros was the founder and leader. But there were many more.
I encourage everybody to read Patricia Moon’s “Happy Birthday Isaac Brock Society” post which provides some context to and history of the Isaac Brock Society. Among other things, it lists a number of contributors who have long moved on. The post included the following paragraph:
The Isaac Brock Society has been a truly amazing collaborative effort. Contributors have generously donated the skills that they have had and gratefully benefited from those skills donated by others. Patricia’s post includes a partial list (as of 2014) who contributed to the building of Brock. She writes:
You could also simply scroll down to the bottom of the Isaac Brock Society site. Look at the names. How many of those names do you recognize today? Well, every time you read a post at Brock you are very likely reading something that these individuals contributed to.
Patricia’s post also pays tribute to Brockers who have died. By reading the Brock history you will meet the late Don Whitely (Arrow) and Roger Conklin (who spent a lifetime of fighting “citizenship-based taxation”. (I also mention the death of Marcio Pinheiro was was honoured with a post at Brock.) These were “good people”, who “tried to do good” and made a difference in the lives of others.
Brockers are still making a difference outside the context of the Isaac Brock Society. One (and only one) recent example is described in the recent post: “Be on the Lookout! Bubblebustin to be on CBC The National- on the #TransitionTax“. The opportunity to appear on “The National” was courageous but probably would not have happened without participation in the Isaac Brock Society. (Thanks BubbleBustin for doing the interview on behalf of all those wh would NOT go public with their problem.)
But, my basic point is this:
The Isaac Brock Society was a community that had/has an educational purpose that is based on a collaborative effort between the authors and the comments. Many of the early authors and contributors are now gone and contribute far less. (It might surprise you to know that I have personally written approximately 500 full posts (most in the early years) including one of the first two or three posts on this site). There are others who have written as many posts or more, who are still around, but simply contribute less frequently. There are some contributors who have written thousands of comments (Badger comes to mind). But, the point is that people were both contributing and and receiving benefits from the site. There was a “give and take”.
In addition, the Isaac Brock Society has always been a blog that helped all kinds of “U.S Persons Abroad”. Whether they were “accidentals”, “transplanted Americans”, “tax compliant people”, “non-compliant people”, Green Card holders (or anybody else) the Issac Brock was a community that helped all.
That was the purpose of Brock and that was Brock in the early years.
The Issac Brock Society of Today
First, there are fewer authors and the existing authors contribute less frequently.
Second, the comments have long ceased to support the educational purpose of the posts. In fact, the comments rarely have anything to do with the posts. Therefore, the comments rarely contribute to the overall purpose of Brock. This issue was recently highlighted on one of the posts which included the comment that:
followed by another comment that included:
There has been a gradual and significant deterioration of the basic purpose of the Isaac Brock Society.
Let’s use this post as an example.
The post had a clear purpose. The purpose was to use the power of the Isaac Brock Society to better explain and articulate the problem of U.S. tax compliance. This is important in general, but especially important in this particular time period. As you know Congressman Holding is preparing a bill that could change the taxation of Americans abroad.
As Barbara explains, after one or two comments, the purpose of the post was lost. Barbara is absolutely right. But I am going to add to what she has said. (Remember that the purpose of Brock (at least was) a collaboration between authors and comments to further the educational process.)
Let’s begin with the comment about NOT considering “non-compliant Americans in Switzerland”. At the time my response was polite and I think “nice”. This time I am going to express what I really think. What the commenter was really saying is this:
If a problem is being described in a way that does not specifically include my personal situation, then it is not a legitimate problem. The key principle is this comment reflects a complete lack of concern for people who experience U.S. extra-territorial overreach in a different way.
Barbara is absolutely correct. Every other post on Brock focuses on the problem of non-compliant Americans. Not only does the comment fail to address the issue of the post, but it actually moves the discussion away from the issue and is inconsistent with the earlier Brock principle that:
The commenters and the authors collaborate in an educational process that supports the core purpose of Brock.
Now on the second comment – the “where can I find a better site that is for only Canadians who don’t identify as being Americans?”
Although I can’t prove it, I am 99% certain that the comment came from a person who has trolled (as was evident from my response) Brock in the past.
The SOLE purpose of that comment was to:
1. Attempt to ensure that the issue of the post was NOT discussed; and
2. Suggest that somehow Brock was not doing its job by focusing on “U.S. Tax Compliant” people
In any case, the comment was very successful. The vast majority of the discussion from that point was participating in a conversation with a person who by his/her own admission did not find Brock helpful. So, I ask you the question: Why were people interacting with a person who by his/her own admission had no interest in Brock and did not see Brock as a valuable place? Simply mind boggling!
Where should Brock go?
There is no long term value to the Isaac Brock Society if it completely ceases its core educational function. A “chat site” may be fun. But it has no long term value. Although “chat” is appropriate, the “chat” cannot undermine the purpose of the site.
Brock is a site that is still read around the world. Brock is still a site that the most vicious and unprincipled Condors fear. Although, the research is not as diverse (fewer authors) as it was, there is no better resource for “U.S. Persons Abroad”. The great strength of Brock is that the original founders/authors were able to “move on” and leave a legacy of permanent and enduring value.
The current commenters should recognize and respect this. Brock participants are NOT like members of the Facebook groups. They are in a sense, the “stewards” of some incredible work that was done by a small and dedicated group of people.
Put it this way:
For the people who are having their “Oh My God” moments every day:
Where would they be if there were no “Isaac Brock Society?”
That is why there is so much anger!
I wish some “proud Americans” would respond to the request to tell their stories and by doing so provide some backup to Solomon Yu’s work. I’m glad I saved Barbara’s David post because it was exemplary. Thanks @ USCA for taking the time to retell the Brock story. I often think if Brock posts and comments hadn’t indirectly brought me down from a very bad emotional place I might not still be around here, reading and learning and empathizing with everyone affected by US CBT insanity. It took awhile but I am now comfortable with the particular decisions I made for my own situation. I only wish there could be a workable solution for everyone. Peace to all!
USCitizenAbroad,
As always, my thanks to you for all you do, including your latest comment on the history of this Brock site! Your and others’ expertise that has been given so generously over the years has enriched in practical knowledge and emotional support so many over the years and I know I am at the top of that list of those who have benefitted.
@USCitizenAbroad, I too will always be grateful for your and others’ expertise on here. I also am so grateful for all the emotional support over the years. Brock has enabled me to resolve my former problems and dilemmas in a way I can live with.
Many of the older school posters on here will remember how I spent several years openly fretting on here, even after my CLN arrived…I lived in fear of possible FBAR fines and a nasty audit on all my PFIC holdings. I was also scared that my renunciation might have raised red flags, etc.
I am now convinced I made a wise decision and will always be grateful for the practical help I received.
@USCitizenAbroad
On the Facebook Groups there are clear posting rules and moderator intervention.
In my opinion. Brock has always had a much greater depth of comment than the Facebook groups. Plus the format better separates posts into groups, and is better searchable.
@ US Citizen Abroad I wasn’t asking for an education…already have been there and done that…I am the author of “I am Canada, Hear Me Roar Mr. President.” The story was posted on Brock, Sand Box and various other sites. My point was this and continues to be this…we are all damn angry, but taking it out on a new comer isn’t ok. AND like I said, I spent a lot of time looking for an answer on Brock about my problem. I think I was the first person to ever mention signing authority on multiple accounts, especially lawyer’s trust accounts. My question back then was blogged about and shared on other sites. WE COULD HAVE DIRECTED THE INDIVIDUAL TO OHER POST WITHIN BROCK WITHOUT BEING SNOTTY AND MY POST WAS NOT AN ATTACK ON THE SITE ITSELF.
I am addressing a few preliminary issues right now and later ( when I calm down perhaps) I may address the other issues ( so called off topic drift, tax harm etc.) raised.
USCA professed to support the call from JC to hear from compliant dual citizens for the purpose of assisting Soloman Yue.
Sounds good right? I didn’t have the benefit of reading Barbara’s comment before she asked it to be deleted.
But if I were one of the compliants being asked for my story would I feel invited or enticed by the question posed: ” Do you snap to attention when you hear the U.S. National Anthem?”? No I would not. In fact its implication and condescending tone would ensure I would not be forthcoming with an answer. One of the things I have always been puzzled and fascinated by is Americans, by and large, who are so patriotic. Another poster above also said he is curious as to why people comply. I was looking forward to the answers. Maybe Barbara’s post gave those answers or touched on them. Now I will never know, unfortunately.
So there haven’t been any answers. There have been comments about drifts off topic and the rehash of Brock history and in my opinion some unnecessary scolding of Brockers who are not compliant complaining about tax consequences, which as I recall and in my opinion, was the primary reason people came to find out about IBS and get educated after their initial OMG moment.
If anyone thinks this is off topic, I invite you to gloss over it and my next post in this thread. Last time I looked Brock is a Canadian born resource site, with a Canadian focus. But it is always open and has the benefit of hearing from other nationals affected by our mutual problems.
I didn’t do a google search in other countries after my omg moment. I was specifically looking for information for Canadians.Thus my handle and the reason Petros named it after our hero Isaac Brock.
My father was a proud american, even if he had left the US and settled in France in 1970. He religiously filed, even for one of his daughters. He had adopted France but never became french by fear of losing his US citizenship. He didn’t make enough to have to pay anything (or managed to have deductions, I don’t know), handed all the cash to his wife, and would not have been proud to see D Trump elected president. He wouldn’t believe it, as he had a good opinion of his fellow-citizens. I think he would have been furious should he had to pay something on top of his french taxes. But fortunately it was not the case.
(but I can assure you, having looking into things that the US-France tax treaty does not protect at all from double taxation, when you live in Paris and start to get a comfortable salary, and you can’t claim anything for your french children, nor head of household status because you can”t claim your children… and many other aspects)
In general, I have often found very valuable nuggets, links and leads in the comments at IBS – even if temporarily not necessarily directly addressed to the main focus of the posts. I want to have people be welcomed and redirected if they try to sincerely and constructively engage – even if there isn’t an obvious thread for them to put their questions. This is a richer place for all the contributions. I got my education here at Brock from authors and founders as well as commenters.
Sometimes I do find myself having to skim over what I might find repetitive, off topic or not new or relevant to me (but may be of interest to others?) and sometimes that does get tedious and frustrating, but not sure whether some possible cures for that might end up with a worse ailment?
I didn’t comment here because I didn’t think I was the real target of the post – though my experience with trying to comply – after my OMG moment was for sure made needlessly more stressful, painful, expensive and lengthy than necessary IF compliance was truly what the US wanted rather than convenient political scapegoats and a penalty harvest to reap in lieu of the taxes that we didn’t owe – I was a minnow who didn’t even meet the reporting threshold for income in several years – suddenly grappling with the problem of my local legal banking and registered savings being defined by the US as evil ‘hidden’ ‘offshore’ “foreign trusts” – due directly to the cynical, punitive actions and skewed worldview of US lawmakers and politicians, those in control of the US Treasury, and the IRS – an experience further exacerbated by the gold digging incompetence of a US tax law and accounting firm in Canada, and others who charged large sums but churned out inferior, incomplete and incorrect tax returns and forms and dragged things out with significant delays even when time was of the essence – complicating my attempt to comply. I had to finish it off myself, with a bit of intercession from the Taxpayer Advocate.
I was confused by whether to comment to this thread because I’m no longer a US citizen (involuntarily – gave up my birthright as the only remedy I could see for the unbearable burden of US extraterritorial twinning of citizenship and taxation/ “life control”). I never ever considered myself a flag waving unquestioning patriot (and still am not an uncritical citizen where I live). In fact I consider that it is the duty of citizens to ask the hard questions of their country and government and society and dangerous to be a complacent flag waver.
I get the sense that I am not the kind of US citizen that Yue and others want to cite, because I didn’t hang on, I wasn’t sufficiently patriotic? Since I relinquished and have been a non-USP for years now. And also, I figured my story was now too old.
The US itself destroyed me as an American citizen. And I’m still bitter and angry about being effectively forced to give it up. It was a struggle for me, and painful to realize that I couldn’t survive and keep my birthright – however vestigial and based in sentiment more than reality my US relationship was. I had hung on to it for decades after my family left to come to Canada, even when finally both the US and Canada as countries gave in and allowed for dual status to be possible without choosing one over the other. But I just couldn’t justify to my Canadian family paying to hang on to it given the threats and statements and actions of the US, and the the spectre of more incomprehensible and unforseeable further future demands from the US was too scary to continue to live under. And I’m still bitter and angry about the cost and hoops involved in the cure.
When I look over the river and see the US on the other side now, (as I can very easily do because of where I live) I feel like something has been stripped from me by force, and by callous and capricious injustice – my fate in the hands of US politicians and lawmakers and government appointees who were exceedingly ignorant and also uncaring about the lives of ordinary people. My remnants of birth family are on the other side, and so are the only origins I remember. It is exceedingly unlikely that I would ever have returned to live in the US so that is not why I feel the way I do. After all these decades, my home and family is in Canada. But it was nice to associate crossing the river with returning ‘home’ to where my remaining original close family lives and where a significant part of my history began. I always used to feel excited when I crossed over and saw the flags. I was born with the right of return to ‘home’ – which I’ve been robbed of.
Thanks everyone for IBS. You were my saviours and my support through the years of my ordeal. You existed when there was nothing else, and have grown since then, and seeded more action and more pushback than anyone ever dreamed of at the start. I have enjoyed spending time with those of you that I have met in person. I felt I knew your consequence and significance right from the moment I met you on the curb and in the few times afterwards. Your first event helped persuade my spouse that you guys knew your stuff, and that I wasn’t crazy and that this threat was real however insane the US statements in the media sounded.
Grateful for your good company and your wisdom and the sharing of it here, always.
@ Juliette
Indeed your father was a proud american. He was much like a father writing a caring letter to a relative or friend once a year but what would he have done if one day that relative or friend demanded money,as the IRS is doing.Another point, your father might have been proud but you also mentionned fear. Is it possble that he filed out of fear of losing his US citzenship as well
Not wanting to be too bold . Just being curious.
Badger, thank you so much for your post. Will it be deemed off topic? I also have learned much from so called drifting off topic comments. You have shortened my second post considerably and we all know I am anything but succinct. Plus, who enjoys being policed? Imo, strict posting rules can effectively shut down comments. Some would say that’s the goal. Like you I am capable of following the original post meaning, and ignoring some comments that may stray. I have never considered Brock to be a chat site. For me it has always been education and I never feel compelled to agree with all posters, but like hearing different POVs.That’s my style of learning. To each her own.
OFF TOPIC: has anyone heard from ( Original) George lately? I hope he is well. I have no idea what thread to post this in so the best I could do is identify it as off topic.Mea Culpa.
@Canadian Ginny – I’ve never been known for being succinct either, (am probably now incapable of changing) so happy to have company on that score. Glad to that IBS has had patience with my style.
In terms of off topic – maybe we could have an ongoing misc. thread at IBS if workable? Some of that happens on various threads when the focus of the original post is exhausted or people have other concerns.
Maybe an official misc. thread would help constructively redirect somewhat and serve a need. But don’t want to add even more work to the admins and the other volunteers who have toiled ceaselessly but invisibly behind the scenes for years now to make this all viable and continue, screen out spam, etc.
Though a misc. thread might collect more lint.
@ Badger I didn’t reply either because I, too didn’t think I was the kinda of story that this thread was looking for…complaint for the purpose of exiting, didn’t consider myself an American. Yeh, definitely not what this thread was looking for! As for your story being too old, I don’t believe that any story is too old…as for being not patriotic enough, were you left with any other choice? As a friend who renounced last year said “my heart still beats red, white and blue.” I think the story needs to be told over and over again until someone starts to listen. Not hanging on doesn’t make you less patriotic…sometimes you have to remove yourself just to survive.
Badger: great suggestions. I too don’t want to add any additional work for admins, but maybe it will lessen their work if there was a misc. folder?
Re-reading the original post, maybe part of the complexity in who is responding and how is that the compliant vs. non-compliant stories and experiences differ depending on where one is. In Canada we have not had account closures. And we’re not as concerned with the potential of the passport issue because Canadian/dual citizens can travel to the US with our Canadian passport (even if technically they can give those duals a hard time if not using a US one to exit/enter the US as per US law). Europe and elsewhere has been completely different, passports more important if don’t have an EU or other non-US one, so non-compliance poses more challenges to banking and to travel. Some places it is much more difficult to naturalize even if have lived there for years…. Pressure to comply or potential risks/rewards/options to non-comply differs depending on one’s circumstances and location. And some of the compliers have now renounced, and have moved on and are not around to tell their stories anymore.
Just a thought….
@USC,
Perhaps we need clarification about what kind of stories are wanted on this thread? Different from the ones the DA and other expat organizations have already collected and submitted to the US government in the past? Just more recent ones, or involving those under the enhanced threat from the new Trump tax?