The current media narrative is anti-Trump 24-7. He is bad. And of course all those celebrities and other people are waiting in line to flee the country and renounce their citizenship. So I was contacted by a reporter of a well-known news network who is writing an article on people who are renouncing their USA citizenship because of Donald Trump. He asked me:
- If there has been an increase of traffic to isaabrocksociety.ca since the November election.
- If anyone had contacted us with questions about renouncing directly linked to Trump.
Here is my response:
There has been no uptick in traffic to our website, and no one anti-Trump has contacted me in my function at Isaac Brock. I do not predict an uptick in renunciations over Trump. People are renouncing for practical reasons. Anti-Trumpism is fanatical, but Trump has not so far caused real problems for American citizens. FATCA, citizenship taxation, the Obama enforcement of FBAR, CBT and FATCA, and the compliance condors have created real problems for so-called “Americans” abroad–especially those of us who are little older and more established financially. Trump just seems to make some American citizens really angry but has not yet substantially harmed them (at least I do not know of concrete examples).
I had one person contact me on behalf of someone who owns property here in Canada, wanting to know the tax implications of moving to Canada and how one might transfer bank assets. This person was not asking about renunciation of citizenship–just the tax implications of moving to Canada (and how to move assets). She did not know I run the Isaac Brock Society. I know her from Facebook for other reasons.
I see that one of the problems with the shrill anti-Trump narrative in the mainstream press and social media is that the wrongs done against expats have been completely ignored. When I talk about the wrongs that Obama did, I am scorned.
Trump may eventually reverse FATCA, but I do not hold out hope. Nevertheless, in the current persecution of expats Trump only continues the demonic policies of his predecessor.
Here is a reminder of why Peter Dunn relinquished his USA citizenship:
@Dash1729
“Is anyone now regretting having renounced because they now feel it won’t have been worth it if the Republican president and Congress stick to their platform and repeal FATCA/CBT?”
Not a chance. As a former dual, I’m happy to be 100% Canadian. The Republican President and
congress certainly have not earned my trust. As Canadian Ginny says:
“The USG can go pound sand, salt or any other surface of their choice.”
I am a lifelong Democrat.
It is obvious to me that Trump is not causing the wave in renunciations. It is obvious to me that the Democrats, with FATCA, have caused the harm to Americans Abroad. They are to blame, entirely. I have (small) hope that the Republicans can change this. However I am not naive and I can see that the GOP may very well jump on the bad-expat bandwagon. Meanwhile, though, the blame is clear. And this could have been avoided very easily with language in IGAs to exempt local permanent residents, for instance.
I think like this because Dubya was a big bad wolf to many of us and people claimed they’d move “to Canada”. But did they? Not really. Did Dubya cause renunciations? Look at the numbers. And it was free back then I believe. Proves the point in my mind.
I never believed any of the big mouth Trump haters who are keeping up a drum beat of hateful speech, would flee the country.I endured thee most painful presidency since Jimmy carter and not once did i want to burn my neighborhood down. The redistribution and high taxation policies of the Obama regime, were a giat leap toward Marxism but I remained confident that the American people would rise up at the ballot box and repudiate Marxism and they did just that.
Trump has embraced capitalism in ideas and action. How refreshing and for once the Chairman of the tax writing committee of congress has said out loud that the only way America re emerge onto the world market with competative products is the FairTax—BRAVO MR.CHAIRMAN.PASS THE FAIrTAX AND WATCH COMPETITION FLOURISH. The capitalist system, as described by Adam Smith in the book Wealth of Nations, is the only sustainable economic system to produce the wealth to take care of workers and their families, so let us return to Capitalism and dump Marxism forever.
Wilton: exactly. If conservatives didn’t leave under Obama’s Islamic Marxism (or was it Marxist Islam?) or Jimmy Carter, and liberals didn’t leave under Dubya (or Nixon or Reagan), then the current surge in renunciations is due to some other factor than the Donald’s presidency.
I WISH Trump would issue some outrageous CBT-related executive order, because then the media would finally be interested in our plight.
fn0 wrote: “But his opinion that “Anti-Trumpism is fanatical” is way off base, at least when compared to the fanaticism of the numerous Pro-Trumpists generating thousands of abusive messages including ones threatening rape or death. Also off base is the statement that Trump has not so far caused real problems for American citizens. There are many examples of real problems being created for American citizens who have parents, spouses and other family members who are undocumented.”
The context of my statement that anti-Trumpism is fanatical is based upon observation of mainstream news and of conversations on Facebook. So far, I have not been named-called by Trump supporters–but called multiple names by anti-Trumpites, who seem unable to have a rational conversation.
As for mainstream media, their anti-Trump fanaticism is quite evident, day in and day out. See for example James O’Keefe who comes off as a lunatic foaming at the mouth Trump hater in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1QWuoEhxg8
As for the problems caused to Americans who have family members without legal immigration documentation, I sympathize. But what we have is really the opposite trend of what the reporter is looking for. He wants to know about Trump forcing people to renounce. But what we see are people complaining that they can’t get in or stay in, and how that has harmed their families.
People vote with their feet. I have voted with my feet to stay out of America and to renounce my citizenship. These people are complaining because of lack of access to America. These are opposite tendencies in my view.
When America becomes bad enough then the problem will be obtaining the paperwork to leave the country, not to stay it it.
@ Petros
You have said a mouthful here!
“When America becomes bad enough then the problem will be obtaining the paperwork to leave the country, not to stay it it.”
It was always my position, as a homelander who looks forward to leaving, that HILLARY would secure the borders….
In order to keep all the productive tax-paying citizens IN!!!
I’ve heard that the Soviet Union had a name for such people:
Refusenik.
My aunt (a Rep.) attended the rally in Melbourne, Florida. Both she and my uncle said the numbers were wildly inflated in the media as to how many individuals were actually protesting. But back on topic… I have heard several Canadians and Americans (my other aunt, a Dem.) say recently that citizens are renouncing because of Trump. They actually believe the media. They offer the last Federal Registry as prove.I have said over and over again to them that the media is at least in this instance lying. Anyone appearing on the Federal Registry list this time around probably renounced almost a year ago and would have waited forever to get an appointment to renounce. I renounced Dec1, 2015 and only appeared on the last Federal Registry (11/20/16). I do Not regret giving it up. When I found at that the US still considered me a US person, it made no difference. I was and will always be a Canadian. Period.
@ Petros…I agree with your statement that if you already have an appointment that you should keep it. If you don’t renounce I believe that you WILL forever be at the whim or mercy of the US. What one administration fixes, the other could undo. Americans are already seeing this…Trump v. Obama. I think it’s just a big pissing contest between the two parties.
Petros –
Appropriate sharing of apt content. Admirable factual cold water dump on febrile reportive frenzy.
Trump may eventually reverse FATCA, but I do not hold out hope.
All hope abandon, even ye who manage the CLN semblance of departure from the here that knows it is everywhere.
Noticing how a certain Trump-will-fix frother with special insider insight is starting to shed foam from lips.
@Dash,
Very glad to see you posted. Have been wondering how you are.
I would not take my US citizenship back even if I was exempt from taxes there for the rest of my life. I know I have a safer life here. I have access to virtual wilderness less than 3 hours away. I have direct access to virtually every culture in the world right where I live. Plus my family of over 30 years is here. Why would I leave to go back to a country that in 5 years, has done nothing to deal with all the issues causing us grief?
I don’t think anyone is likely to regret renouncing because the Republicans will manage to honor those platform promises. I just spent the last 2-3 days combing through the GOP
proposalTax Policy Paper from the Ways & Means Committee. (This is NOT the same thing as the convention platform nor is it the same as the Republicans Overseas proposal). There is not one, and I repeat, NOT ONE word in it that addresses the plight of expats. That proposal will be what the House and Senate use as the basis for future legislation. We have recently heard that the very first item of order to deal with is healthcare. I can’t imagine that being done before the end of the year. Way too complex for them to try and deal with not screwing a majority of folks out of care. Then we are into the eve of the 2018 midterm elections. Even IF the GOP maintains a majority, I just don’t see any real evidence of support for our issues. I could not find it in Camp’s Ways & Means proposal. I don’t see it in any of the other bills proposing tax reform that I just read. They are about focusing more on broadening the base, lowering the brackets, getting rid of nearly all the credits (except charitable donations), upping the standard deduction & personal exemption amounts in order to simplify (i.e., get rid of all deductions except for the mortgage interest).The only reference to anything territorial is with regard to corporations. The lack of intent is very clear, in spite of all attempts to work within the system to get lawmakers to put something in there for us. A comment made by a W&M Committee member during the Camp study was that our situation, was ” nothing new.” There was nothing for us in that proposal. We all remember the MASSIVE efforts and disappointment at those two paragraphs in the Senate Finance Committee’s recommendations regarding tax reform. The response of OUR OWN GOVTs during the IGA “negotiations”, was to agree we had no rights that would override US law. New bills regarding tax reform contain nothing concerning our problems. And even the newest proposal says NOT ONE WORD. We have all heard it before that our issues cannot be considered until after the next election. I am willing to bet that is what’s next.It is clear that those of us who have renounced have had no issues crossing the border. There is no reason to suggest you would not be able to visit your families etc., if you renounced. Put aside the big unknowns for the moment ( will Streamlined be dumped, will the Expatriot Act be reintroduced, etc). What you get by waiting is continued inability to invest in non-US mutual funds. Inability to take part in your country’s version of a Roth IRA. Continued expectation of being taxed on the tax-free deferred vehicles your country of residence offers. The insistence that your children NOT born in the US are US citizens. Being turned over to the IRS by your bank and your domestic tax agency.The never-ending anxiety that you could be financially destroyed the longer you wait. The never ending fear mongering from the tax compliance community. The incredibly clear evidence that the US intends to punish (passport revocation the latest indication). The lack of judgement overall, in actions of the US govt. Can you believe they are seriously considering boots on the ground in Syria and possibly other war?
Is holding on to the nostalgia of one’s origins worth all that? Isn’t this enough to convince you that all of that is childhood fantasy? Something that is still there even if you renounce? When our parents, grandparents, treasured aunts and uncles are taken from us by death, is our past with them gone? It is not, it is changed but it is still there. No one can take that away. This is how it feels to renounce. It is still in there but one accepts the idea we all have (had) in our hearts is not the reality of what America is.
It is clear that dual citizenship is open to all people of the world except Americans. That is what exceptionalism means for us. IMHO, taking a look at all this in all seriousness, what I see is it is time to #RenounceAndRejoice. And to move forward.Time to take charge of what you can and get on with it. No more loss of LCUs for that miserable state of existence as a US expat.
Take my US citizenship back? Not a chance.
[Patricia Moon:] “It is clear that dual citizenship is open to all people of the world except Americans.”
Just to nitpick, since this is an issue close to my heart: No, dual citizenship is forbidden (to varying degrees of enforcement) by (inter alia) Germany, Japan, India, and Taiwan, where I live and plan to naturalize. Otherwise, a moving post, and I envy you Canadians!
To clarify,Taiwan (ROC) citizens are allowed to take other nationalities, but newly naturalized citizens must renounce previous citizenships within a year (unless impossible, as in the case of countries which forbid renunciation) (and then they are free to acquire multiple nationalities).
@Zla’od
My apologies. I should have thought before I spoke given I have many many friends from India and I knew about Germany. Japan I should know about because of JapanT but I did not realize Taiwan did not allow it.
I don’t know that one should envy Canadians. The problem is, we are too close physically to the United States. It is not reassuring to see, in addition to the IGA, the Canadian government is about to allow American police the right to be here, on our soil, with weapons. For now, I believe it only applies to the border. But as we can see, inch by inch, Canadian sovereignty is being compromised. One would think CDN business/government might try to start to unravel the over-indulgence we have in US investments, etc. Or else, get a bit tougher when it comes to dealing with the US in negotiations. I seem to recall Petros mentioning, we could turn off the oil in 5 or so states should we need to. …..not nice, I know but then, what is nice about what they have done?
@Zla’od
I am not sure I understand this.Can you confirm:
1) ROC requires one to renounce all previous citizenships (except ones that cannot be left)
within a year of becoming ROC citizen.
2)After a year, one is free to then acquire additional citizenships?
Pretty difficult to do with regard to US citizenship but seems not so difficult with Canadian…
@Patricia Moon
Excellent post and I couldn’t agree with you more. I wouldn’t take back US citizenship if they offered it along with no tax obligations, a once a year round trip ticket to the US destination of my choice and leaving me alone forever. No, I wouldn’t want it back because any country that was capable of doing what they did to their expat community and continue doing those same things to their expat community, in spite of all of the articles and pleas alerting them to the fallout and with constant alarm bells ringing and do absolutely nothing, is not to be trusted under any circumstance. I too sadly agree that nothing will change regarding moving to RBT and FATCA wont be repealed either, in my opinion. There is too much to be made by picking the pockets of innocent folks living outside of their ever tightening borders, folks who have little to no say in the laws that are being thrust upon them, no representation in Congress and no interest whatsoever in speaking with them from US lawmakers. Like you say, “Is holding on to the nostalgia of one’s origins worth all that?” Absolutely not! To continue to be exploited, extorted, controlled, be under permanent surveillance, financial and otherwise, while living in another sovereign country, where I am and have been a citizen for nearly my entire life, makes the decision not to accept US citizenship, should it ever be offered back a no brainer. I recommend anyone reading this, in a situation of trying to decide what to do and wondering if, just if, things will change for the better, you should seriously consider renouncing, sooner rather than later. Things are not likely to improve and may in fact even get much worse. I felt ten years, or more, younger after renouncing and now live, invest and see life as a much freer and unburdened person. I will never forgive nor forget what Obama’s FATCA and related laws created and how much damage they did in destroying the overseas US community of citizens and deemed persons. It is and still remains an absolute disgrace and a dark spot in history.
Newly naturalized citizens of the People’s Republic of China also must renounce their previous citizenship.
Nicely said, @ Patricia Moon and @ Edgar Holmes. I asked my relinquished husband and he said he has no regrets and would not retrieve his US citizenship if it was offered. Although, if Canada gets buried under the ice in a New Ice Age I think he might sneak back into the USA as an illegal just get warmed up.
I still have to hold out hope that somehow this vendetta against expats, this attack on the sovereignty of nations, this threat of sanctions on every financial institution on earth and this perverse, punitive system of extraterritorial taxation will end someday. So is it true that the Republican’s 2016 platform which definitely called for FATCA repeal and a switch to RBT didn’t make it into their 2017 agenda? I could find the platform but I couldn’t find a complete, official document that indicated the proposal was dropped or deferred to another year.
https://www.gop.com/platform/
[Pa Moon:] “I don’t know that one should envy Canadians. The problem is, we are too close physically to the United States.”
Shades of Pordfiro Diaz! (“Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.”) But consider that Taiwan depends on the US for its continued existence as a de facto nation-state. Full FATCA cooperation is scheduled for this summer.
Yes, your understanding is correct. I realize that the policy may seem not to make any sense.
(pls excuse the accidental deletion of most of your name–computer going nuts here)
@Zla’od
LOL NP It kinda makes me think of Pennsylvania Moon – which are my American roots….Bucks Co PA
Interesting topic because I had been wondering if Trump being POTUS had caused any uptick in renunciations. Thanks for answering, Petros!
Trump never made promises for FATCA reform, the Republican party did. Trump is trying to keep his campaign promises and get his cabinet approved while under very harsh opposition from the Democrats en masse, some establishment Republicans, some White House staffers and intelligence operatives and a spin-off Democratic organization called OFA (Organizing For Action) that is trying to finish Trump off.
Congress will have to repeal FATCA repeal so that Trump can then sign off on it. I am not surprised that FATCA is on the back burner right now while Congress is tackling issues like Obamacare .
@ Edgar Holmes….. Nicely said, thank you! Agreed 1000%
@EmBee
As far as I am aware, the 2017 proposal has not yet been released. I remember (and re-read) the section regarding FATCA in the convention platform.
What I am referring to are works produced by the Ways & Means Committee. Since these are the elected officials that would be involved in drafting/approving the legislation, I tend to think they have more weight.
http://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-Tax-PolicyPaper.pdf – June 24, 2016
and some of the preceding acts proposed that seem to form a core for the tax policy paper
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43060.pdf – March 18, 2016
Since I am not really clear on what the difference is between all these things, I went back to the convention page and there are some FAQ. This is what is said regarding platforms (which are written by members of the party):
@EdgarHolmes
We are completely on the same page. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.