I want to give you a status update on the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (ADCS-ADSC) “FATCA IGA” lawsuit against Canada’s Justin Trudeau Government.
Our lawsuit argues that the Canadian legislation that enables the U.S.-Canada FATCA “agreement”, made under threat of financial penalty imposed by the U.S., violates Canada’s Charter of Rights and our Constitution.
The Case Management Judge who is handling the logistics of the lawsuit has asked for a status update from Plaintiffs Ginny, Gwen, and Kazia. Our Vancouver litigators responded on their behalf on November 4, 2016 and said:
“We can advise that counsel for the Attorney General has advised counsel for the Plaintiffs that the Attorney General will be filing a motion for production of documents and particulars within the next two weeks.
The Plaintiffs intend to file a summary trial motion and supporting materials by December 2016. The Attorney General takes the position that a summary trial cannot proceed, even with respect to setting dates for service of materials in response, until the Attorney General’s motions have been resolved, any resulting orders satisfied, and examinations for discovery of the Plaintiffs have been completed.”
This means that our litigators expect to provide the Court with the submission for the Constitutional-Charter FATCA IGA trial (including expert testimonies and witness affidavits) by December 2016.
However, there is ongoing back and forth between Government and our side regarding timing of the production of “documents” (I can’t go into the details). These disagreements will have to be sorted out by the Court and could result in a delay in the trial, which will be held in Federal Court next year.
I know that litigation moves slowly, will keep you posted on developments, and thank you for your patience.
The Claims can be found HERE.
“Punishment”, “Torture” – lets play with the words and twist them around a bit and see what we can come up with to fit the moment.
And most of all- lets sink to the level of barbarians to keep score.
Besides being barbarian, here’s how successful torture is. If the US tortures me to find out where a bomb is hidden, I’ll give them an answer. I don’t know where a bomb is hidden and I don’t know what answer I’ll give, but I’ll give them some answer.
Also if tortured, I’ll confess to my role in 3.11. An approximate US equivalent would be confessing to my role in 9.11, though I didn’t have a role and don’t know what answer I’d give, but if tortured I would confess.
Here’s why 3.11 is better though. Those who have read this before can skip it.
An old joke is that two US lawyers meet by accident in Nassau and get to talking.
One lawyer says: “My practice was going terribly. I was losing case after case after case. Then a fire burned down the office building and destroyed all my documents. Insurance paid off and that’s how I can be here today.”
The other says: “My practice was going terribly. I was losing case after case after case. Then an earthquake knocked down the office building and destroyed all my documents. Insurance paid off and that’s how I can be here today.”
The first lawyer asks: “How do you arrange an earthquake?”
Well if tortured, I would confess to arranging the biggest earthquake in Japan’s recorded history, the one whose effects we still suffer from and people in Fukushima near the nuclear power plant will suffer for the next 20,000 years.
@George I’m not sure George– I don’t remember hearing much if any opposition voiced against the FATCA IGA by the Bloc. Maybe other folks here recall otherwise. In retrospect, I’m surprised the Bloc didn’t raise holy hell in parliament over the impact of the FATCA IGA on Quebec sovereignty. Not only is it bad enough that Quebecois with American ties were being turned into second-class Quebec citizens and the Quebec tax base is being eroded, but Quebecois are now forced to do this “en anglais.” In the province which passed “Bill 101” which preserved and protected the french language from les maudits anglais, forcing pure laine Quebecers to deal with the IRS in English is an abomination.
My suspicion having lived a long time in Quebec is that if a francophone Quebecer received a form in english (W8-BEN, W9, IRS letter, etc) they would view it as a violation of their right to service in french and toss it in the trash.
If a Francophone Quebecois was born across the border they have a right to service in español, which is one of the EU’s languages (the EU they were born in, not that other EU).
I recall signs in Montréal displaying 中文 in bigger letters than français long after Bill 101, so I think the government doesn’t really care which non-English language is most prominent as long as it isn’t anglais.
Regarding ” how successful torture is” – AMEN. Being tortured I`d confess to anything too and say whatever!
Regarding ” how successful torture is” – AMEN. Being tortured I`d confess to anything too and say whatever!
I am with you. If I were tortured, I’d say Polly and NormanDiamond did it.
Excellent points about Quebec and its sovereignty and language rights. I hadn’t considered that they should have been consulted before the Conservatives signed the IGA but I suppose the argument would be they had MPs in the House at the time. Assuming their budgies are Quebecois, any form in English they receive or are required to fill/file for the USG put in the bottom of their cage might give rise to avian flu. My border city budgie would just raise his little leg from his perch and give them the middle claw.
Many thoughts and opinions expressed here on the president elect. My main concern currently is his choice of candidates/appointments to the Supremes. Seems it will be carte blanche due to the composition of congress. And how Obamacare will be restructured. How much am I already supposed to owe them to opt out of health care? Isn’t POTUS 2B threatening to raise that by thousands of dollars for opt out? I ask because frankly I am avoiding listening to any US news lately. Sometimes being a plaintiff is a nice diversion from the everyday political stuff, if you know what I mean by that irony. Kazia, Gwen and I are now compliant! We have submitted all updated materials required by the three of us as our lawyers, and witnesses complete their parts. Inch by inch we are moving ahead while the Feds resist and oppose us, drive up costs at the expense of Canadian tax payers. I look forward to hearing from those of you still pressing our issues with your MPs. Helps calm my lack of patience gene.
@ Karen in Australia How is it going there?
@ Canadian Ginny
“Kazia, Gwen and I are now compliant!”
Could you doubly clarify that? You mean compliant with the court demands, not US tax demands, right? I think at Brock we tend to associate being “compliant” as having filed all tax and information forms demanded by the IRS. For some, like myself, compliancy has become a trigger word which induces angst. Others who attain complete compliancy probably associate it with relief though.
Yes definitely meant compliant with litigation filing requirements. Apology for the inadvertent trigger and clumsy public casual invocation of that term. I have been previously warned about my (warped?) dry Irish sense of humour, sorry for any discomfort it may have caused anyone, including and especially you.
I am on record for saying the day I will be tax compliant with the USG is never and the day that I will renounce is the day that Calgary 411’s son can have the same right to renounce.
Ginny and EmBee,
Re *litigation compliance*, my Witness Affidavit was notarized last week and is now in the hands of the Vancouver litigation team. (I am in tax return compliance with Canada and always have been and in compliance with US tax returns needed after renunciation by back-filing more than the required number of years with all the complex forms, snf filing the final Form 8854 to prove that I am not a *covered expatriate* subject to the egregious US Exit Tax. Completely different story for my US-deemed non-compliant son, born in Canada, raised in Canada, never lived a day in the US, never had any benefit from the US, but criminalized and entrapped into USC purgatory — as so many other, however US-deemed, *accidental Americans*.)
Put me on record for being forever grateful for Canadian Ginny’s statement regarding my son’s (lack of) right to renounce. And, grateful for all the understanding and support received by so many in the past many years of this.
@ Canadian Ginny
Thanks. I was pretty sure that’s what you meant but that word evokes quite a different feeling now from what it used to … for me at least. I hope earlier, rather than later, in the New Year we will be getting courtroom updates. 🙂
Yes that’s the plan EmBee. When all the required documents are finalised and submissions polished, examinations conducted Dr. Kish will make the formal announcement and we will be in the thick of it again.
I know you and others can appreciate how extensive this process is. We have many fine witnesses who have now joined the effort and gathering their statements and documents takes whatever time is required to do this correctly and according to the federal court rules. We are in brand new legal waters in this unusual litigation, with the best legal team in Canada and I have the utmost confidence in them.
The law student I am mentoring for her international law course paper made the astute comment to me that she is now discovering how vast the issues are and how it is not easy to whittle down the most important legal arguments that a court and the professor will find the most persuasive.
With the court imposed time limits with respect to oral submissions at trial, this is at least one aspect our lawyers are diligently working on.
But yes, sooner than later would be a relief, I know. It’s like waiting for test results or employee reviews. Wouldn’t it be great if it just could move faster? But we knew it is not a sprint. Look how long it took the government to turn over their documents in round one. Our side has no intention of slowing the process down and we aren’t consuming tax payer dollars either.
T2 had the golden opportunity upon taking office of resolving this without further litigation, as his party opposed it previously. It’s pretty clear politicians will say one thing during the campaign cycle and another when they grasp and achieve power.
And we know this case has nothing to do with tax evasion and all these other good sound bytes.
@ Canadian Ginny
Your law student is so right. This is a very complex case but I’m certain we have the right team in place to take on this challenge. My heartfelt thanks to plaintiffs and witnesses … you’re the best!
@Ginny…..my heart went pity pat just like @EmBee. My mind started racing why did she do that? That would be admitting you are a USC when you in fact declined to ” accept that gift.” I remember years and years ago magazines just started showing up in the post and then they sent you a bill!!
We share the same frame of reference but with me the relinquishing act I performed is enough so I have never asked for a CLN. My passport was cancelled and noted but never got a CLN though I never knew it existed, my lawyer was not that kind of lawyer and I suppose State never went further because I did not fill out the form, the form I never knew existed.
I too have full confidence that your legal team is the best that can be put together on a case like this. No matter what happens it will not be the lawyers fault!!
In regards to politics of foreign lands I have found I must and actually think most should do the same, is to stay out of it unless its something that really affects you. Obamacare is in that category as some expats are paying for it with the surtax, some are penalized because they may have spent too many days in the USA and others are finding they can not buy travel insurance to visit!! Yes, I have learned that some travel insurance providers will not sell travel insurance to expats going to the USA because of concerns about the Affordable Care Act.
I am still hoping that T2 drops the lawsuit when Trump takes office. It is such a political no-brainer to do that and he seems like the kind of guy that would jump on ANY political opportunity.
The worst part of all this? Pre-IGA/FATCA it was not safe in the waters for expats but we did not know what lurked below the surface!
So now when (and it is when not if) the IGA and FATCA go away, the water is still not safe to swim in because we have looked below the surface!! We were so happy and blissfully ignorant!!
Our friend @Fred from Belgium indirectly hit on that the other day. CBT needs to go, FBAR needs to be updated excluding countries and raising limits, the master nationality rule needs to be recognized and DEFENDED in our home countries for EVERYONE, we need to be allowed to enter the US as aliens if we desire, for those that renounced under distress they need a streamlined application to get USC back voluntarily if they want to, the State Department needs an administrative published presumption that if you have not applied for citizenship you are not a citizen.
@George – is there a Master Nationality Rule that countries can sign up to? Do you mean the Hague Convention?
Thanks for thinking about the Down Under contingent. Our numbers are growing – there are now 186 members in our Facebook Group, and several others who are not on Facebook but have subscribed to our email list.
Summer is almost upon us and it often seems like all of Australia shuts down from the second week of December through Australia Day (26 Jan). We will be using the summer months to develop our strategy. I’ve recruited two people to join a “Steering Committee” and the three of us are working on a strategy document which will be posted on our website in due course.
As I said in a post on our website, One step at a time.
Found an explanation of the Master Nationality Rule (as it applies in the UK) at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/267945/dualnationality.pdf
It seems to me to mean that if I (in my former life as a US/UK dual) had travelled to the US and got myself in a jam (e.g. for evading US taxes) the UK would not have intervened.
And likewise, if I had got myself in trouble with UK law (e.g. for evading UK taxes) the US would not have intervened.
I can’t see that this would offer a US/UK dual any protection or immunity when it comes to FATCA or CBT. Am I wrong?
@Iota, in theory it should also mean that in regards to tax treaties that in the UK you would be treated solely and absolutely as a UK Citizen.
The problem is that under the tax treaties, your UK citizenship is pierced and presto you are a US Citizen in the UK…which is absurd.
Remember there is no such legal term called “dual” under US or UK law. The only instance of anything like that would be recognition in law as a EU Citizen or Commonwealth Citizen.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for you (past tense) to have been a US Citizen in the UK as you would have been an illegal alien.
A lot of our problems are in fact pretty easy to sort when you apply the master nationality rule and the dominant/effective nationality principles.
The problem is that the USA refuses to recognize any other citizenship anywhere else on earth.
The USA could have said…IOTA is British living in the UK and is therefor solely subject to UK Law end of story.
When you read through the DTT and the saving clause, it is actually very repugnant on what is done to your “real nationality” and your/our own country could not see that.
@George – “theory it should also mean that in regards to tax treaties that in the UK you would be treated solely and absolutely as a UK Citizen.”
I don’t see how that could be. The Hague Convention (Article 1) says:
I was unquestionably a US/UK dual citizen, and the Dual Citizenship note in the UK passport makes it clear that it can’t protect a dual citizen from obligations imposed by their other country of citizenship.
I agree CBT / saving clause are repugnant. Very, very American though.
Thanks for the update. Keep up the great work; I will be following along.
“never got a CLN though I never knew it existed, my lawyer was not that kind of lawyer and I suppose State never went further because I did not fill out the form, the form I never knew existed.”
There is no form for you to fill out for a CLN. Everything on it is written, signed, and stamped by the US government.
@Ginny – Thanks for all your work as well. We in Australia are closely watching the progress of your lawsuit. Nothing this important comes quickly or easily. The updates from you and Stephen Kish are greatly appreciated.
When I spoke to the international law class, I mentioned your ground root efforts to organize and your issues with your super, when I gave a recap of what other countries were doing, such as yours, Israel and others.
They are watching your country too. We are all in this together. One big problem, and many possible solutions based on each country. Go Australia. We’ve got your back.
Does anyone know if Israelis are intending to appeal their latest court decision? Bearing in mind the economic and other ties between the USA and Israel, the findings did not surprise me. Alas.
@ Canadian Ginny
Always good to read your comments and know that your fighting spirit is alive and well.
I share your US tax filing date of “never”!
Thank you for that very kind comment. I am not a very good judge of how my comments are being received here. I am often reminded that I do have a weird sense of humour that others don’t get or appreciate. Even my dog gives me strange looks at times.
Just wish that @All would know it is never my intention to upset anyone.
Most of the time, I just remind myself to go away and just read/lurk. I have a lot of posts to catch up on anyway, now that my part in the court filing is complete and I have a little more breathing time.
But yes, my fighting spirit never seems to leave me. There is still so much to do! So many frightened people to try to help. Seems I keep coming across them daily. That says to me we are actually getting the word out… but at such a cost if you know what I mean.
Every time I watch someone come to their OMG moment, I cringe and lose a little piece of my heart. We all know that pain. How is it that the USG is oblivious to it?
They don’t care, which is why we need to. That’s motivation enough for me. It’s ironic isn’t it, that the USG has turned me from the little girl who only spent 5 brief years in their country, to what I am doing now.
They don’t bother me at all. But man do I resent what they are doing to so many other people.
My first novel: Hotel California: The Real Heartbreak Hotel.