Read below the sorry situation “Caroline” finds herself in.
The tax attorney Max Reed suggests three options: 1) Obtain a CLN; 2) Do nothing; OR 3) Catch up on U.S. tax returns and renounce (i.e., NOT relinquish) citizenship. How do you suggest a tax attorney should advise Caroline?
Tax attorney Max Reed opines and three attorneys (John Richardson, Virginia La Torre Jeker, Michael Miller), PLUS Shovel AND USCitizenAbroad comment on whether a foreign (U.S.) “tax-citizenship” law that might or might not impact on Canadian Caroline is retroactive.
The case of “Caroline”:
In advisor.ca there is an article by Max Reed with commentaries about whether a foreign U.S. (At present, the U.S. is considered by the United Nations to be a country foreign to Canada) tax-citizenship law should be applied retroactively to a Canadian. Read the entire article and commentary on an issue that has often been discussed on Brock.
Max Reed cites the example of a “Caroline”, a Canadian who relinquished U.S. citizenship in 1978 and has no CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality). Her bank sends her a FATCA letter and says that it will report her to the IRS unless she comes up with a CLN.
“In September 2016, she goes to the U.S. State Department to get a CLN to document her loss of U.S. citizenship in 1978 [good idea?]. But what is the exact date of Caroline’s loss of U.S. citizenship for both U.S. tax and immigration purposes?”
Max Reed provides a “common sense” view in the article and also, below, what he feels is a “literal reading” of a 2008 U.S. law:
“The literal approach is based on a strict reading of the law. Since 2008, U.S. tax law has set the date that a person loses U.S. citizenship as the earlier of the date that he applies for a CLN at the Department of State or the date the CLN is issued… Under the literal approach, because Caroline never obtained a CLN, she remains a U.S. citizen until her State Department visit in September 2016. This means she would have had tax obligations to the U.S. government for the previous 38 years – despite losing her citizenship for immigration purposes in 1978…”
Virginia La Torre Jeker comments:
“The collective view of several distinguished US tax professionals is that the current version of the expatriation provisions as spelled out in Internal Revenue Code Sections 877A and 7701(a)(50) as enacted by the HEART Act must have prospective application only… If a later Congress had intended the “surprising result” of retroactivity when passing the 2008 expatriation laws, it would no doubt have spelt this out very clearly….
“1. What you describe as the “literal” approach is based on reading the exact words of Internal Revenue Coce S. 877A. S. 877A(g)(4)in its opening language addresses those who are “citizens”. Not past citizens. It reads: “A citizen shall be treated as relinquishing his United States citizenship on the earliest of—”
What it means to be a U.S. “citizen” is not defined in the Internal Revenue Code. It is defined only in the Immigration and Nationality Act. Internal Revenue Code S. 877A came into force in June of 2008. Therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that if one was not a U.S. “citizen” under the Immigration and Nationality Act in June of 2008, then S. 877A(g)(4) should not apply to that person. To put it another way: the “literal approach” would/should lead to the conclusion that Caroline, who became a Canadian citizen in 1978, was not a U.S. “citizen” for tax purposes in June 2008.
2. Prior to 2004 there was no provision in the Internal Revenue Code that allowed for one to be a “tax citizen”, if one had relinquished U.S. citizenship under the nationality laws. In other words, if NOT a citizen under the nationality laws then NOT a taxpayer. This means that those who relinquished U.S. citizenship prior to 2004 under the nationality laws, were not subject to taxation under the Internal Revenue Code. The 2004 law (that created the “tax citizen”) specifically stated that the creation of the “tax citizen” under the Internal Revenue Code was prospective only. It seems unlikely that the enactment of S. 877A in 2008 would have changed what was clearly a prospective concept to a retroactive application.
Therefore, whether one takes the “literal approach” or the “common sense” approach, the notion that Caroline, who relinquished U.S. citizenship in 1978, owes U.S. taxes, is hard to justify under the law.”
“…But, just to provide a taste, it’s interesting to note that even the so-called common sense approach is very easy to square with a literal reading of the statute.
If you start with the proposition that, prior to 2004, anyone who relinquished citizenship for nationality purposes also ceased to be a citizen for tax purposes, and add in that the 2004 legislation expressly grandfathered those persons, then you have to start your consideration of the 2008 legislation (including, in particular, IRC section 7701(a)(50), with the understanding that Caroline had ceased being a citizen for tax purposes in 1978.
With this in mind, the question is what do we make of IRC section 7701(a)(50) which says, in pertinent part, that “An individual shall not cease to be treated as a United States citizen before the date on which the individual’s citizenship is treated as relinquished under section 877A(g)(4)” Well, Caroline didn’t need to cease to be treated as a citizen at any time when this statute was on the books, because she ceased to be a citizen in 1978. Therefore the common sense approach dovetails with the language of the statute once it’s understand that, by saying what’s needed for an individual to cease being a citizen for tax purposes, the statute should have no impact on someone — like Caroline — who has already ceased being a US citizen.
And, above and beyond that, it’s important to understand what the contrary interpretation would mean. Since Carolyn had long since ceased being a citizen for nationality and tax purposes when IRC sec. 7701(a)(50) was enacted, the so-called literal approach would have to affirmatively restore citizenship that had previously terminated in order for this provision to apply — which is clearly absurd. Therefore, since marketing is everything, I would choose to characterize the competing interpretations as the absurd one and the non-absurd one.”
— Shovel notes:
“Anyone who relinquished before 2004 and is thinking of filing U.S. taxes (or is being told to file as part of a current tax citizenship expatriation) needs to read these instructions from the IRS carefully.
“2015 Instructions for U.S. Form 8854″
“Initial and Annual Expatriation Statement”
“Purpose of Form”
“Form 8854 is used by individuals who have expatriated on or after June 4, 2004.”
The IRS itself here plainly says that if you expatriated before June 4, 2004, Form 8854 is not for you. Throw it in the garbage. Do not read on and get yourself entangled in the mumbo-jumbo rules that apply only to those who expatriated on or after that date.
But they’re only to happy to take you and your money if you don’t know how to read.”
“The question asked by Stephen Kish is how should Caroline be advised. Mr. Reed proposes two interpretations of S. 877A which he calls the “literal approach” and the “common sense” approach. One problem of reading articles written by the tax compliance community is, that by focusing on the theoretical, they minimize the “real life” consequences to the people they advise. So, what are the “real life consequences?” The “literal approach” results in the destruction of your life. The common sense approach means that you still have a life. (Which do you think is the better approach?)
Here is why.
Rather than frame the issue as “the literal approach” vs. the “common sense approach”, the issue should be framed as:
Approach 1 – Your Life Is Over: Under this “literal” interpretation of S. 877A, you poor dumb former American will have to turn your life savings over to the IRS (and pay the adviser to help you do this) because you did not go out and obtain a CLN. It doesn’t matter that a CLN was not required by law. It doesn’t matter that you didn’t know what one was. It doesn’t matter that the U.S. Government was threatening you with the loss of your U.S.citizenship if you became Canadian. It doesn’t matter that in some cases the U.S. was denying entry to the USA to those who had become Canadians. What matters is ONLY that this is what the statute says NOW!!!!!!! So, you better step right up and turn your life savings over to the IRS.
Approach 2 – It’s Your LIfe! Why don’t you keep it!: Let some “common sense” prevail. You were one of the smart ones. Because you relinquished U.S. citizenship – according to the clear laws of the USA in the 1970s – you are not affected by this new law. The only people affected by this new law are the “dumb bunnies” who decided it was a good idea to be a U.S. citizen AND were U.S. citizens when this law took effect on June 16, 2008. I don’t think you should draw attention to yourself. You might want to document the circumstances that led to your becoming a Canadian citizen in 1978. When documenting those circumstances, you probably should make it clear that you were intending to relinquish U.S. citizenship. But, either way you have to sleep. So, you might as well – Sleep well!. There is no good reason to turn your assets over to the IRS and pay your adviser to help you do it.
A fair reading of the legal commentary on this issue appears to be:
One group of lawyers (including the three who commented on this article) do NOT believe that the “literal” (or as Michael Miller says, the “absurd”) approach is correct.
A second group of lawyers thinks that the “literal” approach MIGHT be correct. But, they aren’t really sure. Even though they are not sure, for reasons known only to them, they usher clients into turning their assets over to the IRS. Hmmmm, …
Given the existing commentary and lack of certainty (on the part of those who recognize the “literal approach”), what I can’t understand is:
1. How any adviser could possibly advise a client that the “literal” approach is correct (turn your assets over to the IRS). Yet, we know that a very large number of people are being advised to do just that. (Note that, since June 16, 2008 a CLN is most certainly required lose U.S. tax subjectness. But NOT before.)
2. How any client, given the existence of conflicting views, could possibly allow themselves to be guided into accepting that they should turn their assets over to the IRS. (Actually I know the answer. It’s because there is ONLY one certainty in life. If you turn over all your assets to the IRS, then you will never have tax problems again. But, you won’t have a life either and then you will have a different set of tax problems.)
This reality notwithstanding:
There is/are a large number of people who clearly relinquished U.S. citizenship many years before the current laws, who have allowed themselves to be guided into the “literal appraoch” – turning their assets over to the IRS.
Conclusion: The result that you get will be determined by your choice of adviser. Think about it!”
@Embee, in the end, mine was not really a straight OVDI ordeal, but morphed into a kind of hybrid Streamlined situation, with some help from the TAS at a critical juncture. I did not owe any US taxes, and was not assessed with any FBAR or other reporting penalties. If I’d had a better understanding of the situation, and better information at the time, I’d just have quietly backfiled and relinquished. Or maybe just relinquished. I’d have saved myself and my family lots of pain, money, time and energy better spent on/with them.
I owe a huge debt to Just Me, ij, Moby, sally, Not That Lisa, anon5percent and others who generously and altruistically shared their ordeals, strategies (ex. reasonable cause and non-willful arguments), invaluable resources and insights here and elsewhere which helped me make it through to the end as informed as possible for an ordinary layperson without any prior knowledge of the US extraterritorial CBT/FBAR system, to represent myself through to the end as best I could. IBS helped me through countless sleepless nights and stressful days. I’m thankful to all the Brockers who were active then and now, and I mourn for people with good hearts like markpinetree, who the US caused to suffer so needlessly, and I miss other regulars from those early days, who were often online at all hours like I was – whether due to sleeplessness or to time zone differences it seemed there was always someone checking in like I was, to make a comment, share a laugh, offer information, report on a successful renunciation, etc. I hope they are all doing well and have found some happy resolution or at least a way to move forward.
I hope that others finding themselves in this situation will also find what they need here in order to see their options more clearly, find themselves a path they can live with, and make their way out of this senseless and needlessly punitive morass that the US willfully maintains.
As I said, the US got no tax or penalty revenue out of it, and my FBARs aren’t those of a moneylaunderingterrorfundingdruglordtaxevader, so are useless. I am no longer a US citizen so I am no longer of any future economic value as a potential (but not likely) revenue generator to the US.
And as an object lesson to US taxpayers? No value at all – because it did the opposite of fostering any future ‘voluntary’ compliance from me or from anyone else who knows what it entailed. And I came out of it so angry, resentful and resistant to any even vestigial relationship with the US – and happy to go forward and use whatever avenues available to me to warn others of the situation, and try to prevent them from being US CBT fodder. So of no use as an incentive to be US extraterritorial CBT compliant.
So what was the bloody point of it all? I read somewhere that Obama apparently considers the FATCA (and FBAR) crusade a proud part of his legacy.
That Caroline even has to waste Life Credit Units or other resources thinking about this from her home – in Canada, where she has not been a US citizen for 38 years is absurd.
Thank you for this. My experience was similar and no less excruciating it seems. When I complained of the mounting professional fees in just trying to transition from OVDI into what you describe as a hybrid Streamined, all our very inexperienced and inattentive IRS agent had to say to our accountant was “I wish I could bill by the hour too”. You could imagine how this was the icing on the cake for me, as far as my disdain for the entire process went . I don’t know that I will ever recover, and your summary of everything you went through has brought it all to the surface again. I can’t imagine where I’d be today had I chosen to take a different path – maybe my anger would instead be perpetual fear? I’ll never know though. What’s done is done. The fact that the IRS managed to generate revenue from me only makes it feel worse.
I seethe constantly, which can’t be healthy but I fear if I start screaming or crying, I’ll never stop.
@Badger. Once upon a time I thought of myself as Canadian-american. I was a proud Canadian immigrant whose heritage and place of birth was America. Now I am just Canadian. And I am strongly anti-American.
Renouncing US citizenship hasn’t slowed Tina down at all!
Your taxing tribulations gave Bubblebustin flashbacks and made both of us seethe but we need to be reminded that everyone affected by the trifecta of FATCA/FBAR/CBT has “standing”, even if it seems to be difficult to convince judges inside and outside of the USA of that. We must keep plugging away until the three-headed monster dies … just as George so optimistically predicts it will. If it doesn’t happen via a judges verdict then the unequivocal wording of the RNC recommendations still gives us hope of help coming from a different direction.
@BC-Doc “Now I am just Canadian. And I am strongly anti-American.”
Yep…….agree 110% but you would need to swap out and add Irish then we are in otherwise agreement.
Only when I’m in Ireland, George. Only when I’m in Ireland.
And unlike the US, Ireland doesn’t try to reach out and grab me!