Kinds of Trolls
Typical trolls: These are people who troll for the fun of it. Perhaps they get their jollies out of contradicting others on social media. Perhaps they enjoy arguments with people they disagree with. Perhaps their personal ideology compels them to find people to contradict, like a vegan in a meat-eaters group (yes, I’ve seen this).
Spammers: Spammers are robots or people that leave messages in social media. They post click bait to spread malware or to bring traffic to a website or a product that they are trying to promote. Most often spammers never engage in the discussion, though their comments are designed to look like they are actually interacting with your content: “Hey great post! Thanks for the help.” Or, “Sorry you don’t know how to write. I could give you some pointers to make your website better.” Our spam filter discards hundreds of these messages everyday, but a few manage to get through
Condors: One type of troll is a real person who is dropping by to let people know that he’s got a book for sale or he’s available for business. At Isaac Brock we get compliance condors who are essentially fishing for business. We have had cases where readers here at Isaac Brock have engaged the services of such an expert, only to inform us later that they felt ill-served. So generally, we have mixed feelings about people from the compliance industry: in some cases, they may share arcane knowledge that might be useful for the purposes of this blog. On the other hand, we cannot vouch for their services, and we recognize in some cases these people are able to get what amounts to free advertising at Brock. We have never received a penny from a condor in the form of payment, commission or kickback. The same was not true at the Expat Forum, where compliance condors had to pay to play. At the Expat Forum, however, the condors began to control the agenda, and the forum moderators removed several threads with thousands of comments. Isaac Brock, by contrast, has never received any funding from advertisers, and we only rarely censor comments, and we almost never remove posts.
Astroturfers: The main distinction between the typical troll and the astroturfer is the lack of transparency. Astroturfers troll with a hidden agenda. So for example, a pharmaceutical company may pay an astroturfer to visit social media to defend their products. At Isaac Brock Society we have had cases of astroturfers–one confirmed case, but only because the condor who posted with a second identity lacked the sophistication to use a second IP address for his alter ego. The alter ego of this compliance condor came on to reprimand Petros for his hostility against the condor in an attempt to generate sympathy for himself. Those were in the early days of the Isaac Brock Society. From that day forward, we have been suspicious about astroturfing and have tried to learn more about the phenomenon.
Modus Operandi of trolls especially astroturfers
The astroturfer doesn’t have to use anything approaching a real argument and it is perhaps counter-productive to engage the main points of the original post. It suffices to sow discord and doubt. Sometimes, an astroturfer can take a know-it-all approach while always resting on conventional opinion, attempting to discredit the author through accusations of extremism, lack of knowledge or expertise, or mental instability (such as accusing the author of anger). Because the astroturfer sometimes relies on conventional wisdom, an air of paternalism will replace actual rational debate.
Astroturfers also use multiple identities because one of their main goals is to make it look like their views arise from the grass roots. Hence the name astroturf–it is a fake grass roots movement. Indeed, Adam Bienkov writes:
As reported by the Guardian, some big companies now use sophisticated “persona management software” to create armies of virtual astroturfers, complete with fake IP addresses, non-political interests and online histories. Authentic-looking profiles are generated automatically and developed for months or years before being brought into use for a political or corporate campaign. As the software improves, these astroturf armies will become increasingly difficult to spot, and the future of open debate online could become increasingly perilous.
Who might be astroturfing at Isaac Brock?
Since we do not require that people provide a real name or even a real e-mail address, it is absurdly easy for an astroturfer to assume an alias, create a persona, and begin to post comments. We allow this because it permits people who are intimidated by the IRS to feel the courage to comment. But it isn’t paranoid to believe that astroturfers are also coming to Isaac Brock to sow discord and doubt. We are a true grass roots movement which is challenging the triumvirate of government, finance, and compliance industries. In my own posts in particular, especially by setting down Petros Principles, I have questioned the legitimacy of the triumvirate. Hence, it is in their financial interests to monitor and even astroturf at Isaac Brock Society. We are talking about industries with very deep pockets.
Conclusion
We must always be on our guard. Astroturfers do not reveal their conflicts of interest. Since astroturfers may go to elaborate lengths to create fake identities, we must be suspicious of those who challenge the core of our approach–especially when it is a first time poster (though there may even be some who have been with us for a long time). We should be sophisticated when using social media and never allow astroturfers to sway our opinions.
In my view the burden of proof is on the person who has the alias. I am suspicious of anyone who comes onto this blog for the first time just to contradict me. Therefore, if someone talks like a condor, the burden of proof is on them to prove that they are not one–at least for me. Obviously others have shown that they think that they can trust anyone who comes onto Isaac Brock to contradict Petros–and that Petros shouldn’t expect such people to have to prove themselves. However, anyone who wishes to attack me should at least be as transparent as I am–my blogging alias is a thin veneer over a real person.
This is starting to sound really paranoid. Sorry. Everybody should have freedom of speech and then everyone should decide what they want to do with it. But it is really beginning to sound like anybody who contradicts or opposes has to be a troll. That smacks of Donald Trump who doesn’t want any muslims to be let into America anymore, and all latinos are “rapists and murderers”. I come here to hear all sides and I rely on myself to then make an opinion. I don`t want others to decide for me.
This thread actually pisses me off.
Not everybody who comes here is here to help with the problem. I agree 100% with Petros and this article entirely. He is merely pointing out that we need to really watch out for the people who come here with the sole intention of causing trouble. It is clear that many do not share the same opinion, however, those who present a useless argument seem to be the ones who are the troublemakers. There is no reasoning with them and they make no point. Thank you Petros, this is useful information and am glad to see it on here.
I write things on this web site that some would consider politically incorrect. I, like you, have many idea that I despise. If it smacks of Marxism I will be somewhat vicious in answering the Marxist Idea.
I was raised by Socialists and have seen up close how destructive Political Correctness, as practiced by socialists, can be. Roger Conklin was a 55 year friend and it may have been 60 years until he died last year. he knew how destructive Socialism was from living in Latin America, so many years, and was a frequent contributor to this site.
Liberalism has always led to dictatorship and citizenship taxation as well as any tax on Income, does the same or has the same goal, dictatorship. We in the U.S. are very near the end of The Republic as founded in 1776-1789. Citizenship taxation on income earned outside our borders is just another Marxist Ploy, ginned up to keep control and has nothing to do with revenue a
stream, since it costs more to administer than it brings in. Heaven help us resist Marxism, in any form.
@polly re: “this thread is actually pissing me off”, Brock is an equal opportunity pisser offer.
@Blackcat
LOL
@Polly, The ability to use an alias has an upside and a downside. The upside is that people feel safer because their privacy is somewhat protected.
The downside is that it means that anyone can pretend to be something that they are not and that there is no transparency.
I am not paranoid, then, to believe that someone who sounds like a condor might in fact be a condor.
Your comments regarding how this is like Trump I take as pure ad hominem.
As for everyone getting their chance to say what they want, I do not see how my post has changed anything. I insist on everyone being able to express themselves. That is part of the Brock DNA. So be pissed off if you want.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/If+it+looks+like+a+duck+and+walks+etc.+like+a+duck,+it+is+a+duck
@Petros
Your attitude has become so petulant. We talked about whether you were angry or not a while ago and you denied it. I think anger is coming out of all your pores. I think most people here feel that way- so frustrated that we are still waiting for tax reform after all these years.
But I find your style is becoming oppressive. Its like you are fueling aggressions in general and I don`t know if that is helping. Do we need a mob mentality here? Everybody is pretty exhausted- I don`t know if whipping up emotions makes people feel better in the long run or not.
But still-no sense pounding holes in the wall with a fist. I eagerly await the outcome of the legal challenges, even if it taxes my patience.
And nonetheless- it is up to each person to find their own answers and this place should be a well of information and not policed for would be trolls. That might stop people from expressing their ideas and I don`t know about others, but I want to hear all sides. Sometimes we dont want to hear what threatens us because it is so frightening – but I think it is imperative to listen to all sides- even the bad ones. I think we all should be OPEN to hear all sides and decide for ourselves. I just don`t think that you should decide for others what they can and cannot hear.
Did I not say that we have removed very few comments from Brock? That gives everyone the ability to hear all sides, even potential astroturfers. But that open policy means that we have virtually no protection from astroturfers (i.e., people who are not being transparent about their conflicts of interest). So if I see something that looks like, acts like, walks like a duck, I am going to express my view that it is a duck. Is that policing? Perhaps you think so–I just see it as pointing out something that might not be obvious to everyone.
Please take note that you have assigned to me anger, petulance, oppression, Donald Trumpism, fueling mob mentality. This is a personal attack. All I have said to you is that you can be pissed off at me and this thread if you want. But I have not attacked you.
@Petros
But maybe you have been accused of attacking others? I just don`t want people to be afraid to post here or say what they really think. Because that can be the beginning of everybody crying wolf and not letting somebody have an opposing opinion. Free speech and all….
Maybe you say this as a form of protection for others. I can understand that, but I still think that we all have to think and decide for ourselves.
Some sites have a welcoming sort of procedure. Like first time posters introduce themselves before they start into comments…
@Patricia Nice idea but I’m not sure what introducing oneself would accomplish. Many, if not most, people who post here wish to retain a level of anonymity. For obvious reasons. In my view, the best way to deal with suspected Astroturfing is to demolish their arguments – something people are very capable of doing here!
@Polly, there is often much to piss off anyone on this blog. What pisses me off most are the threads devoted to US law this, and US law that, what “we” can do to change US law, as if we will all be “going back”. As a Canadian the US attempted to claim and tax, I’m really not interested in US anything, except the defeat of their extraterritorialism.
After years here (since the beginning), and the Expat Forum before, I’m with Petros.
@Tricia,
Your ideas are usually great, but I don’t think this one would work well. Some people don’t want to talk about themselves. We already, with no introduction required, have people who won’t post, so I wouldn’t want to make anyone feel they have to reveal details about themselves in order to post, because they might not post at all. And if someone is up to no good, they’d likely give a fake background story anyway.
@ All,
How do I know we have people who don’t post? They turn up at events. Have a lunch, a protest or a pub night or, better yet, a protest followed by a pub night, in your city!
@ Star,
I share your view. The people here are great at setting the record straight. I notice it all the time on media sites, if the article or a comment is pro-FATCA/pro-CBT, Brockers eloquently and concisely destroy pro-FATCA/pro-CBT arguments and myths with facts and personal experience of the reality.
I agree with you too, Star.
But hopefully also if somebody has an opposing view- we wont crucify him right off the bat.
And there are people who need accountants because their tax returns are so complicated. And there are -as in any field- honest people and less honest people.
A while back- there was a 60 Minutes piece on US lawyers who were helping people to hide money in America. Somebody posed as the assistant to a corrupt African dictator and wanted to buy a brownstone, a yacht and a jet. Of the 15 or so lawyers who heard the proposition- one said he would not help the man ( thereby foregoing earnings). SO at least there was ONE lawyer of those who had the integrity to say no. 🙂
@Mom
Yeah- I can understand as a Canadian that those threads annoy you. But for some, the information is pertinent. Brock has become more than a Canadian site. It is pretty international.
Under normal circumstances, a personal opinion is met with personal opposition.
And less normal, the opposition could be paid.
http://americanlookout.com/if-you-criticize-hillary-online-be-prepared-to-confront-one-of-her-paid-trolls/
Understandable that Canadians get fed up with non-Canadian posts. I have to put my hand up – apologies, cheerio Canadians, thanks for an awful lot of helpful information and good luck with your court case.
It seems the laws are written and enforced in a way that use intimidation and fear, and I have been affected by that. That’s why I have tried to remain as anonymous as possible. I apologize for not responding to Patricia’s comment in the other post asking me to introduce myself, but I’d rather be rude, even to someone who deserves so much respect, than find myself trapped in another mess. I really expected to feel more comfortable after receiving my CLN, but some really creepy things happened while I was waiting for it that I won’t talk about on here. I’ll say though that I think that exorbitant fee actually is being used to investigate renunciants.
I responded to the other post not to defend Jay (we’re not the same person, and I don’t agree with him) but because the tone of the responses seemed to be falling below the level usually seen here. I know I’m not a moderator, but I didn’t see anything wrong with pointing that out, even if it came off as paternalistic. Creating internal division is also a method used to break up resistance, so it bothered me to see the discussion turning more and more divisive because of Jay’s posts.
I follow this blog closely but avoid posting. Usually someone else responds with what I am thinking.
@Oscar, denying that you are Jay when nobody has accused you of that, seems suspicious.
There isn’t an equivalent of this site for UK people affected by this so I am happy for Brock and being able to post here. I got educated by this site more than any other resource online or off line. So thank you Brock.
I am not sure having my CLN will take the uncertainty away completely. perhaps relief of not having to worry about Fatca with banks. but it seems that it will be the start of a new chapter. Place of birth will always need explaining as long as CBT exists, then there is travel to see relatives in the USA and the possibility of having to explain. The solicitor I spoke to said once this is all finished that I should apply for the Global entry program and avoid the lines at passport control desks.
And any future laws that might affect ex citizens. So it almost seems that I will never be free of having to think about this. That’s why the fight is so important,
Also how anonymous is the internet really? We should all maintain a level of privacy to be safe in all aspects of life online. Yes we can have alias names but it won’t be hard for government officials to find out the details. I am sure I saw an article somewhere that the IRS is using social media to track down tax payers.
What I meant by introduction was super minimal. And not suggesting anyone do any more than what they already would be doing by putting in a comment. We did this at Expat Forum. ” Hi, I’m nobledreamer I just found out about all this tax mess”…that’s it. Something to let members know here is a new person, some will welcome to the group and so on. If it’s not a good idea, fine, but I wasn’t suggesting anyone give any more identifying info than they would by commenting. And if someone were a compliance individual, a statement indicating anything but being an expat would alert us ..not saying a troll etc would do that but it was just a thought.
Brock was always about researching this situation to learn how to protect ourselves from misinformation put out there by the government and the tax compliance community. It was not intended to be simply a chat site. (We actually had a separate site for those who didn’t want the heavier stuff but there was virtually no participation and it was eventually overrun by spammers. Plus nobody was willing to take full-time responsibility for it. I think “geeze” did for awhile but found it too much). That is the very point Petros and I were discussing when Expat Forum started to become a problem. I remember telling Petros I thought we could suggest a special thread to post “Information sheets” so people wouldn’t have to get info in bits and pieces etc. And the same stuff repeated over and over all the time. Sure, there was the very important element of support and letting people have a place to feel “safe”. And while it had a strong CDN flavour time presence, it was never intended to have CDN only content. I don’t understand why US laws would be irrelevant given our situation. If one doesn’t want to read a post because it’s about US law, it could simply be skipped like any other post.
This pro-Clinton super PAC is spending $1 million to ‘correct’ people online — and Redditors are outraged
http://www.businessinsider.com/clinton-pac-spends-1-million-to-correct-people-online-2016-4
@UK Rose
Perhaps that’s why it’s so difficult to put this all behind me. There’s the feeling that I’ll be hunted for the rest of my life because I never know what they’ll come up with next or what the real motivation for their policies are. There’s also the thousands if not millions in a similar situation whose livelihoods are threatened not to mention all of the “homelanders” who now are no longer allowed to leave and build equity abroad–and don’t even know it.
I’m really worried about returning to the US. The only reason I have to visit anymore is my family, and they’re close enough to the border that I could convince them to meet me in Canada. My mother, however, is probably too feeble to travel and I worry I might never see her again.
And I know, one is never anonymous on here, which is why I generally avoid posting.