Here is what I am thinking of submitting to my bank manager. Please note one small change that I made from Stephen Kish’s template highlighted in boldface:
Dear bank manager,
I am a customer at your bank and have several personal and business accounts, as a well as self-serve trading accounts at your discount brokerage.
I understand that on September 30, 2015 Canada CRA turned over private banking information on 155,000 accounts to the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Your bank also provided some of this information.
Please tell me whether your bank passed on any of my banking information to CRA for the subsequent transfer of the data to the IRS. I think it is very possible as I was born in the United States and may have presented my US passport as a form of identification when I opened some of the accounts.
I need this information in writing by ASAP so that I can prepare my family for the impact of having the IRS know everything about our bank accounts..
If you are unable to comply with my request, would you please kindly provide your reasons?
Thank you and always a pleasure,
Petros
Petros,
Thank you.
I am hoping that there will be a few more people like Petros willing to send that polite letter to their bank.
.
Give me a call and/or let us know on Brock what your bank has to say. From my own experience and that of others, each bank seems to have a different response,
If your bank refuses to tell you, their valued customer, whether they sent your private banking information to CRA, for transfer to IRS — that is evidence of harm.
The biggest problem is the banks can ‘sit on it’ without any real consequences.
The only short term solution is to thwart KYC (Know You Customer) rules on the front end.
12 months ago i did the same ,but in Serbia.. Bank colected from me 35 information vith explanation that they needed that to make decicion am i US person … fatca goal.After that i asked bank a kuestion ( in letter) to tell me exactly adress vhere is going to pass my data..Thay didn t knov at that moment , but by lov thay should.than i put bank on small court of justice and i get all my data back in originaly form that i signed.Fight them on any vay .Banks all over the vorld vere blackmeiled by US goverment and thay passed that on their custemers. But i am client and citissen of another country and i don t vant big brother vatching me. banks and clints are ekuall . then if they vant to knov me USA phone number then i vant to knov phono # og main board director ogfbank and central bank … read central bank rules for protection custumers and lov for protection perssonal data. find something and make a case. good luck Canadians.
@Petros Why not include that you are no longer a US citizen? and as such such transmission of data is a breach of your privacy. Perhaps a form of discrimination as you might have been assumed to be a US person yet you are not.
I think yours is an effective letter, Petros. I hope you get a prompt and honest reply so you can *prepare your family for the impact of having the IRS know everything about your bank accounts*. I hope they see the urgency and can put themselves into your shoes!
I wish I had the guts to write a letter to the bank at which I have accounts for my son. I don’t.
@ Petros
I think JC’s suggestion is good. You should let them know that you are officially no longer a US citizen.
@ Kragujevčanin Serbia
I think that’s amazing that they gave you back your FATCA form. Good for you for standing up to them.
Kragujevčanin Serbia,
Thanks for the good news you share with us that you went to a small court of justice and got your original form of information for FATCA that you had given your bank. That will hopefully give others of us courage to do the same. Good and brave work!
If Petros does not let them know he is no longer a US citizen then there may be less harm perceived in: impact of having the IRS know everything about our bank accounts. Yet falsely being accused as a US person may have its own implications crossing border etc.
@Petros
If the bank sent your info without any attempt to cure indicia, or as a result of your enquiry end up sending your info to the CRA which forwards it to the IRS, again without any attempt to cure indicia, what happens next? I suspect any IRS correspondence will find its way to the bottom of your bird cage, leading the IRS to do what? Interesting to explore in which ways you could become a plaintiff of standing in this scenario.
I can’t think of a better person for the job.
@JC et al. Yeah, I could tell them I am no longer US citizen. I did present my CLN to the brokerage when I reopened those accounts, and they took a photocopy. I am not sure if the right hand lets the left hand know what it is doing. If so, they have better information sharing system than the US government.
But it seems to me more effective to let them know I have indicia without letting them in on my renunciation status.
I took a proactive move to thwart this reporting 2 years ago. First I took my CLN to my bank and asked to have my name remove from the list of US persons and get my W2 returned. The account manager and her manager after that refused and told me that despite the CLN they still viewed me as a US person. Their reasoning was that I was born in the US and that’s all it takes despite the CLN. I took their names and went home to go online and registered a formal complaint online with the national banking authority which also happens to the the central bank of Israel. Within 3 weeks they emailed back and informed me they had opened a case on my complaint. A few weeks later I was contacted by the head of customer service at the bank’s main office. She was assigned to assist me in having my records corrected and retrieving my W2 from the archives. She was extremely courteous and apparently very motivated to close this case to my satisfaction. A series of emails were exchanged over 2 weeks time and the process was completed. She was not able to report to the central bank that the process was completed until I agreed that I was satisfied. Following that the Central Bank contacted me to ask if the case was resolved to my satisfaction and if the case could be closed. Frankly I was not expecting such an excellent response from my complaint, but I just shows that sometimes at least it does work.
@Petros like to pic on this article. It reminds me of the video clip you compared your stance to Clint Eastwood – ”go ahead, make my day” toughness. “I’m a Canadian.” I look forward to more of your channeling Clint Eastwood.
@Petros, bravo……..
You are pointing the way to opening another front in this.
Everyone that has a CLN needs to do this in whatever country they are located. The CLN is the shield so you can do this without fear.
Thise who relinquished w/out a CLN need to donate….and donate….donate.
So far, only a single Canadian, Petros, is willing to send the letter and go public.
I am hoping that out of the million or so other Canadians who are affected and who have bank accounts, that we might find at least one other brave individual who will do the same. Yes, there is a risk of harm if you out yourself to your bank.
Anyone else willing to support Petros? One more person?
@Stephen – this reluctance to be outed …. is this what “Terror” looks like ? The force which threatens to harm those who are outed …. is that what is known as a “Terrorist Force” ? And those who aid and enable said “Terrorist Force” …. are they what are known as “Terrorists”, “Accomplices of Terrorists” and “Terrorist Enablers” ?
@Yitzi says:
There are a number of financial institutions that take the position that a U.S. birthplace guarantees one is a U.S. citizen. This is obviously a false assumption. It’s incredible: the banks are searching for “U.S. persons” without even knowing what they are searching for.
Nervousinvestor,
Ginny and Gwen are the real proof of concept that there are in fact Canadians willing to be outed to help others. Their claims and situation in the litigation have been published for the world to see, including the foreign United States Internal Revenue Service — AND they are willing to place themselves in a position of suffering court costs imposed by their own country, Canada.
Later I will be making the same type of request for Canadian Witnesses.
George,
Thanks for your comment that everyone with their CLN needs to follow Petros’ example. I would ask about my banking information status if it were not connected to that of my son.
I missed (and I’m sure other have as well) your wisdom here at Brock. I always welcome your comments.
@Calgary…….I pop in everyday to read the news but just had nothing to contribute.
Your position? Its the right position to take in my opinion.
Wit every fiber in my body I believe that your son is ultimately “safe” because he lacks a US place of birth but at least one foreign government may consider him one of their own and their may be other foreign governments that consider him one of their own.
But you need to take your position you are taking because otherwise you are hitting a hornets nest with a golf club.
In addition to unavoidable human error, there are systemic problems which create many false-positives and false-negatives when identifying US persons under FATCA.
McGill professor Allison Christians does an excellent job of explaining the problems associated with indicia and self-certification in her abstract presented at the recent International Taxpayer’s Rights Conference hosted by TAS:
“Across the globe, banks are flagging accounts with indicia indicating their owners may be “US Persons,” clearing the way for the United States to enforce citizenship-based taxation extraterritorially for the first time in history. For individuals who permanently reside outside of the United States, this is a “where there’s smoke” method of establishing tax jurisdiction because none of the indicia are themselves incontrovertible evidence of one’s status as a citizen and therefore a US Person for tax purposes. The indicia method guarantees that certain individuals will be presumed to be citizens and subjected to repercussions regardless of their actual legal status as such, while others will be overlooked even if they are in fact citizens. Establishing a tax jurisdiction in this manner is arbitrary and capricious, with significant practical and normative consequences. Moreover, it violates one of the most fundamental and universally- acknowledged tenets of taxpayer rights, namely, the right to be informed about what the law requires. Because of the extraordinary demands that the United States attaches to citizenship, indicia-searching and self-verification of nonresidents violate principles of both international law and human rights. Both should be universally rejected as an invalid exercise of state power.”
http://www.taxpayerrightsconference.com/abstracts-papers/know-thyself-self-certification-and-the-taxpayers-right-to-be-informed-allison-christians/
Thanks for highlighting Allison Christian’s words, bubblebustin.
Not a level playing field as some of us are less identifiable than others. As well, we are seemingly encouraged by our own (Canadian at least) government to ignore US tax and reporting responsibilities as we are told our registered accounts are exempt (when really that is only for the banks having to report those accounts to the CRA – nothing to do with our own US-deemed responsibilities). What a chicken way for a government to deal with this US tax extra-territoriality. A lot of hypocrisy going on than good governance which could be fairly done with RBT rather than the US exceptional CBT.
Agreed, Calgary411 that the final line of defence that our government offers would be for vulnerable Canadians to resort to willful tax evasion, which in itself is another red herring because as I believe badger pointed out, any monies held in these non-reportable accounts must go into a reportable one when they are cashed out.
Perhaps the Trudeau Government can offer a $2350 tax credit that is allows equal to the US Renunciation Fee to at least compensate some Canadians for the essentially extra ‘tax’ place on their heads.
This would allow at least some to ‘Get out of the system,’ and the Government taking responsibility for its actions.
That’s money that would stay in the Canadian economy if our government would just uphold our Charter.
“So far, only a single Canadian, Petros, is willing to send the letter and go public.”
Dr. Kish, WTF? I posted my results publicly twice, in two threads on this site.