Justin Trudeau, King of Canada, has issued his first edict: the reinstatement of the long census form. Minister in charge of Canadian census Navdeep Singh Bains, will jail people who refuse to divulge personal information required by the long census form:
[The Liberal government] didn’t provide details on how it plans to make sure that people actually fill it out, although Navdeep Bains, the minister of innovation, science and economic development, said “the law is the law” and the Statistics Act hasn’t changed, which suggests penalties would include jail time. Bains said restoring the long form will mean a return to solid, high-quality data.
It seems lost on Bains that saying that “the law is the law” does not make any particular action of the government morally right. Putting old ladies in jail because they refuse to fill out a form is disproportionate to the alleged crime. That it is an invasion of privacy and a violation of universal human rights makes it all the more despicable. But the new Trudeau government seems to be carrying on the tradition of the elder Trudeau’s attitude towards law, as we discussed earlier (see, Burning down barns is not wrong because it is illegal; it is illegal because it is wrong).
In the past, the government found one woman guilty of refusing to fill out the long census form. She was 79-years old. I have seen how government persecution of senior citizens can lead to fear and sometimes premature death, as in the case of friend of the Isaac Brock Society Mark Pinetree, who lived out his final years in fear of the IRS. He was a psychiatrist who had moved back to Brazil after becoming a US citizenship, not realizing that the IRS would persecute him even though he no longer lived in the USA.
In any case, if we were hoping that the government of Trudeau the Younger would respect the privacy rights of citizens of Canada, we now have tangible evidence that the new King doesn’t really believe in privacy. This bodes ill for those hoping for the repeal of the FATCA IGA.
Although not (at this time I hope) immediately affected, if our household is to receive the long form census (or short if same Q asked), I will advise my infected wife to offer absolutely no hint of her disease on the form. Other, non incriminating questions, will be answered honestly if deserved. Hence, the “bad data” suspicions of others are confirmed. No fines or prison sentences in this house.
Otherwise, I agree with Petros’s criticism/suspicions. As an unaffiliated voter, I refuse to buy into the honeymoon euphoria I’m seeing about the newly elected PM. Actions….not words.
Numbers 1:1-3 Do a census to prepare for going forth to war.
Canada upholds that tradition by outsourcing its census data work to U.S. murder corp Lockheed-Martin.
Data serves power.
All who profess to love any species of governmental data aggregation whatsoever ought to voluntarily and immediately forward all conceivably relevant personal information directly to the office of the U.S. Fatca General.
Bend the knee. Bow the head. Lick the boot. Worship the state.
Hope and Change.
Forward.
In Sweden, the right signed the IGA. The election changed over the gubbermint to left. Both the left and right voted to ratify the IGA. Only the nationalists opposed it. Not for any noble reason other than they believed that the small banksters couldn’t handle the costs.
Obama couldn’t be criticized either. Part of it because of his beauty.
The best way to implement repressive policy is to have the nice party implement it. There is nothing better than having a war for “humanitarian reasons”. Obama talked about the wars that were made by Democrats at the Nobel ceremony, and explained that ethnic populations were bombed for humanitarian reasons.
Petros, I am sorry you feel insulted, and for my role in it (been on the receiving and don’t wish it on anyone). But, you had to have known that this particular post was going to be provocative.
I think a big part of the negative reaction you received had to do with timing. Many of us are still clinging to hope that we can convince the Liberals to back us and are trying hard to cheer others on to write letters (and we know how few people actually involve themselves in any activism). From that perspective, your post felt like it was working against us. BTW, did you send a letter?
@PierreD, My first reaction when Embee brought up the ‘US indicia’ related questions on the census form was the same as yours. I’d just lie. But then I started thinking about the intent of those questions and how different that is from the intent of similar questions asked by Canadian Financial Institutions. Now, my thought is that I will lie at the bank but not on the census, and am starting to think that to lie on the census is actually doing ourselves a disfavour.
USX re: ” Bend the knee. Bow the head. Lick the boot. Worship the state.”
Doing your part filling out the census so that our government has an accurate representation of the people it has been elected by so that reasonable, intelligent, ethical policies can be made, is (having thought of this WAY too much over the last couple days and never having been a boot licker) an obligation of a caring resident/citizen in my opinion. However if I hear any hints that this data collected by our government is used for any nefarious purposes all bets are off.
@Whitekat, I think I have a tough skin, and yes, if you are going to be provocative, one should expect a certain backlash. But I am hoping for a little more actual dialogue on the nature of the privacy invasion. You see, I am unsatisfied in this post 9-11, post Edward Snowden revelations, era, that the government make assurances that private information be kept private for the anonymous usages of StatsCan. My issue is whether the government fails to uphold one the deepest principles of English common law since the Magna Carta–that every person is king of their own castle (i.e., the Castle Doctrine). There are just some lines that government should not step over–and the only allowable reason for stepping over those lines is if the government suspects that a crime has been committed. But never ever may a government force people to divulge information that belongs to their private and personal life: how many hours you spend playing with your children. It is completely inappropriate for government to ask these kinds of questions. And if the government will throw you in jail for refusing to answer these kinds of questions, how much more will they be willing to violate your Charter rights by sending your banking information to the IRS? I am not impressed with our young handsome PM’s first act. I called him King, but the fact is that in the English-speaking world, Trudeau is insisting on the ability that kings have been barred from doing for centuries by the Castle Doctrine. Since it is a violation of natural law, naturally there are many people who become extremely irate over the violation of their realm–as elder Trudeau said, the government has no business in our bedrooms–but the government doesn’t belong in our kitchens, our living rooms nor in our children’s rooms either.
No, I did not send a letter. My MP is the con, Peter Kent, and I will not be writing to our young heart throb because I am unworthy to clean his navel lint–not that such an illustrious personage would have an accumulation of any sort in his royal baekkob. But by all means, those who have liberal MPs should write to them, so that they be without excuse (cf. Rom 1.20).
Like it or not, living in a modern society implies some data gathering by the govt. Best it be done transparently with safeguards. We are not (yet) going back to some mythical late-18th century founding fathers paradise where leaders are non-slaveholding Thomas Jeffersons.
By modern society I mean a currency, banks, healthcare, elections, public education…
Therefore an occasional long form census appears quite reasonable to me. The caveat I would add is that it one should not be forced to answer. It seems to me that non-coerced answers would be more reliable. Aside from various philosophical reasons why answering the census should be voluntary is a practical one: one can fill in junk data, as I usually do when forced to enter data (such as my phone number and birthdate and birthplace).
This is the whole point of the lawsuit. It used to be ok to be born in the US until the Canadian government signed the FATCA IGA. Now it’s self-incriminating to admit it. The government will have to remove the question should they prevail in court, as no one of any birth place will be safe.
Petros re: ” how many hours you spend playing with your children.”
At first glance, questions like these seems intrusive. This is what one commenter to the article you reference has to say:
Criminality rates. Academic success. Physical and mental health issues. Social integration. These are only a few of the problems that can be alleviated by having this information.
For example, time spent playing with a child has an impact on them learning language, social and quantitative skills. It has been linked with better success in life.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/129/1/e204
Likewise, girls whose fathers spent more time doing house were found to aim for careers that are traditionally male (engineering, management), and achieving higher positions.
http://www.cbc.ca/…/dads-who-do-housework-have-more…
Yet, this crucial time spent with children is lacking in some impoverished communities In the same vein, knowing whether a house has « a missing floor tile » or not will help determine a family’s quality of life (not a trivial question, considering 40% of homes in reservations were in need of major repair and that 91 First Nation communities were under water advisory in 2014).
This kind of information can help, for example, design help programs for parents and target them at the communities most in need of them.
And finally, the market surveys that this article proposes to use instead of the census will leave out some marginalized communities who do not fit marketer’s demographics and do not have as much of a buying power.
So yes, these questions are intrusive, and the government might not have a right to force people to answer them, but they are of vital importance. I consider it our personal duty to answer them, not for the sake of we who have the education and luxury to debate privacy rights, but for people who are otherwise politically and mediatically underrepresented and sometimes unaware that what they experience is not the norm.
See my new post.
Responding to this:
I said ‘PAYING TAXES, voting and periodically filling out a census form aren’t a lot to ask in return for CITIZENSHIP.’
You commented “Ooops, Mr Phyzix are you sure you meant what you wrote? I presume you are talking about RESIDENT citizens paying taxes and are not advocating CBT.”
Good point. I should have qualified this as Canadian citizenship. I’m not a USian, but am married to one, have another for a son-in-law (an accidental, as it turns out) and a couple other undisclosed possibles in the family. My personal perspective is that of a victim by association, and having never been USian, I lapse into that viewpoint. No offence to the good folks here, for sure.
Still, tin-foil hat crap. There are lots of real issues for IBS to deal with, and frankly I think that paranoia regarding collection of your personal data by StatsCan is the least of your (our) worries.
In solidarity with the elimination of FATCA, the rationalization of the US-Canada Tax Treaty, modification of the IGA and Yes, getting rid of CBT in the US. And unicorns and rainbows.
are you sure you should be calling him King?
Why not le petit prince?
US_Foreign_Person says
November 7, 2015 at 12:54 pm
@George 3
I understand where u are coming from… but not all donors are in Canada… hopefully… world wide… since the donation has not gone up much… I really don’t know too much about all these electronic payment systems…. Thank u for sharing your knowledge… I usually ask someone to take care of it for me… I don’t trust electronic anything… At this stage of life… I am surprised by how much I distrust any gov’t… new or old gov’t… same crap… a different day…”
I see no one has given a solution despite the Euro hint
Scotia bank allows Euro accounts. The board may consider setting one up. These are protected by Canadian privacy laws (check what FATCA provision would apply because Steve Kish is still an American). Will the bank report the name of check deposited,
If this is a problem you have 2 options:
1) Steve Kish can resign from the Board
2) See if the law firm will set up a Euro account for partial payment of accounts.
People who have access to Euros can send Euro cheques (1 superiority of Americans is spelling some words.).
The board may even check if some credit unions will convert Euro checks to Canadian dollars.
Electronic transfer generally goes through USA. I also would check the clearing house used by various banks.
I do not really want to get into this debate except asking Petros if this logical based on facts
“usxcanada says
November 8, 2015 at 12:39 am
With you all the way, Petros. …… Not yet mentioned is the extensive and primary use of expanded census data by corporate interests to profile and target you for their profiteering – with the connivance of their servile state.”
The Conservative are against the long forms while the Liberal, NDP, Block Quebecois and Greens are for the long forms.
I though the Conservative were business lackeys in the opinions of the vast majority at this website.
Petros can you please answer this questions?
Therefore using usxcanada argument should not the Conservatives have been for long forms while the other 4 parties are against it?
@KG111
Good question. Maybe the answer has something to do with the reason the Cons banished the census in the first place. They claimed it was about privacy, but more likely it was about the opposite – obfuscating reality so that policies can be made without accurate data to refute them.
Whitekat is your name Petros?
I left the question for Petros because he mentioned rational explanation and he used usxcanada thread to defend himself.
As I stated I am not really interested in this debate.
The Libertarian magazine is Called REASON.
Can Petros defend usxcanada comments as reasonable?
Please note I my comment only started because of use Paypal by the board,
As sophisticated investor Petros should also have know that PayPal is a USA only company.
He could have backed up my long ago comments that using paypal was a dangerous move.
KGIII re: “Whitekat is your name Petros? ”
So sorry, did not realize there were restrictions on which comments I can comment on. Will make sure next time, that I double check who the comment was directed at, before chiming in with my 2 cents.
@KGill, Is there tangible evidence that the Liberal party is bought by corporate interests to a lesser degree than the Conservative party in Canada?
@KGill, Is there tangible evidence that the Liberal party is bought by corporate interests to a lesser degree than the Conservative party in Canada?
Part I
I see you still did not answer the question?
First
Would you use the NDP, Block Quebecois and the Green party in that question?
If you believe in reason how can you not attack usxcnada comments.
The census is generally about giving free stuff to people so they will vote for you.
Which party is the least likely to give free-bees? Use quotas?
How did an aboriginal people react to your suggestion on the long census?
Business can get more useful information from google, facebook etc etc. Then census.
Petros google your name? Do you really want anybody to google your name, Europe has laws to prevent that. They only apply in Europe.
Do you think it would be a good idea that we have a law similar to Europe?
Second
I have always stated any party in power will avoid the 30% sanctions.
They will use the non withstanding clause if necessary.
The Liberal may dance around it and blame the Conservatives and still enact IGA (there may be some minor changes that Obama may agree to). While the Conservative may hold a constitution conference of the premier to propose some changes. Do you really believe Paul Bernado should have a right to vote? Do you think there should be something concerning property rights?
Let look at the evidence regarding Liberal using non withstanding clause
The Liberal party has always been in bed with the US Democrat.
Both the liberal and NDP did not say they would throw out the IGA publicly and support lawsuit.
The NDP will try to renegotiate Sound like 1993 repeal of GST promises
Which party enacted the 1995 law which recognized USA tax law in Canada?
My guess is that if they were in power they would have enacted an IGA similar to what was in the original European IGA
1) use of US person for tax purposes instead of just USA citizens you could have relinquished at that time for 425 dollars you do not have to be tax compliant)
2) the 30% withholding on USA investment would still be there
3) Trying to limit the people caught. They would not have word in the guidelines that for a place to be considered USA place of birth it would have to say USA, Detroit Michigan is not considered an unambiguous indication of a U.S. place of birth,
or
” 5. If I spend a certain number of days in the U.S. over a period of three years, does the U.S. consider me to be a U.S. resident?
According to the IRS website, you (unless you are a U.S. citizen) are considered a resident alien for U.S. tax purposes if you satisfy the substantial presence test. This test uses the number of days you were in the U.S. during a three year period. The IRS website has more information to help you determine if you are a resident alien based on the substantial presence test.
The IRS also says that even if you are a non-U.S. citizen and you satisfy the substantial presence test for a particular year, you can still be considered a non-resident alien, if you meet certain conditions. One of these conditions is that you maintain a closer connection to a foreign country in that year.
IRS Publication 519 states that the U.S. domestic rules that determine if a non-U.S. citizen is a U.S. resident do not override tax treaty definitions of residency. If you are considered a resident of Canada and the U.S. under each country’s laws and the Canada–U.S. tax treaty considers you a resident of Canada, the U.S. has to treat you as a non-resident taxpayer and you should not identify yourself as a U.S. resident to your Canadian financial institution.”
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/fq-eng.html#q2-5
Consider the fact that the USA will enforce sanction
The Russian who are facing different sanction for Crimea wanted a FATCA IGA but they allowed their banks to report.
They know the sanctions are serious.
They have serious intelligence agencies who know that the USA was serious.
Did the USA government allow delay to data transfer because of Canadian court challenge?
Did they officially cancel Keystone XL after Trudeau II was in power. I thought he said he was going to influence Obama. Remember all the stupid talk at this website about deal FATCA for Keystone. Do you think Trudeau II will have a great influence on FATCA. If changes FATCA for us he has to change it for all the other countries. The only thing that may occur is the Chinese may demand to know all accounts of Chinese citizens.
Does Obama pretty much ignore US constitution: on advise and consent (Iran deal), on court enforcing law on illegal aliens, or the USA Supreme Court enforcing free speech for anybody but his friends in the main stream media.
He won the election, he is god.
next consider whether you if you were in power would allow the 30% sanctions to go into effect if you were PM of all Canadians
Petros says
November 9, 2015 at 11:24 am
@Whitekat, people have been prosecuted, fined and threatened with jail sentences. FBAR has made few victims in Canada through prosecution, but many via threats and intimidation.”
First off FBAR can not be enforced in Canada so first part of statement is slightly incorrect. CRA may collect IRS taxes (no penalties or fines) if you were not a Canadian citizen at time obligation occurred. The Conservative stated they will not collect USA taxes for Canadian income. Do we even know how many times the CRA has helped to collect USA taxes? Do we know how many of of 155K accounts reported are for US person who are reporting their taxes and for people living in USA?
Would you destroy the Canadian economy just because some Canadians may receive nasty letters from IRS? Which the government has told you can ignore. Just do not cross the border.
@KGill, I do no really see why I should be made to answer for assertions that USX has made. The comments and posts on this represent the opinions of their authors. That is the policy of the blog.