cross posted from ADCSovereignty page
UPDATE September 28, 2015
CANADA
from Tricia Moon:
As we wait (and wait and wait) I thought I would tell you of a small thing that happened to me that might make a few people feel better…
I opened a (new) bank account last Friday with a different branch of BNS than the one where I still have quite a few accts. After about 3 mins, poof! Not asked “Are you or have you ever been an American citizen/U.S. “Person?” Not asked to fill out a W8 or W9.
I asked the gentleman why and he said as an existing customer, they already have done the KYC/AML procedures etc.I mentioned that I renounced, had a CLN etc and we had a very nice discussion.
However, it was interesting that he didn’t pick up that the bank could have been in error by not asking considering I very much was US for the majority of my time as their customer. Meaning lots of others who haven’t renounced/have no CLN may well not have to worry…
Many duals will obviously be able to evade detection -even with new accounts- if their banks have similar policies. He also told me that it is illegal for a bank to photocopy any identification documents. And never to let anyone take ID to do that.
So perhaps, way back when, even if one DID use a a non-US passport with a US birthplace, I can’t really imagine the birthplace being written down-just the passport number (of course, for years prior to FATCA).
September 27, 2015
from Dr. Stephen Kish:
Yesterday I attended a meeting of the Republican Overseas (RO), who are mounting their own lawsuit against FATCA and the IGAs. I met, for the first time in person, Dani Küttel, who has been posting on this site and who is one of the plaintiffs. The U.S. Government lawyers, as expected, are attempting to contest “standing” of all of the plaintiffs arguing that our wounds are self-inflicted. The decision on the RO injunction (September 28-29) will be made at about the same time as that for our request for a stay (September 28?) and their attorney will advise me as soon as the Federal Court has ruled in their case.
September 26, 2015
from Dr. Stephen Kish:
“LITIGATION UPDATE: We instructed the Arvay-Gruber team to take legal steps to prevent the handover and obtain a stay related to the summary trial appeal. It is likely now (but situation still fluid) that the Court will hear our motion for a stay. There will be no oral arguments and the court will consider our arguments based on the written submission only. The Government of Canada will also file written materials. I will release the motion when I am able to do so.
The “live feed” below will pick up every tweet that uses the hashtag#StopFatca. Please help get this message out-join our Tweet brigade (another version of Brock SWAT) now at 56! Canadians have 1 day to continue pressuring the government prior to transmission on Sept 29. Other Model 1 IGA countries have 2 days prior to transmission on Sept 30. Please advise of any countries who have received an extension from the September 30, 2015 deadline. Also please advise if you know of any governments who have notified the IRS that they want the extension.
Every US Person abroad needs to put the same pressure on their own governments TO STOP THE EXCHANGES FROM TAKING PLACE as all Model 1 IGA’s require turnover of information by September 30. Each government has TO ACTUALLY REQUEST THIS EXTENSION FROM THE IRS, so members need to take responsibility for making sure their respective tax authority/government does so.
WORLD
The Treasury Department is up to something. new CAAs signed
The titles of both agreements include the words “to improve International Tax Compliance and to Implement FATCA. I am afraid to imagine what that actually means.
A competent authority arrangement is a bilateral agreement between the U.S. and its treaty partners to clarify or interpret provisions of an existing tax treaty, such as the ones used to justify the intergovernmental agreements, or IGAs, under FATCA
“The signing of these Competent Authority Arrangements marks another significant milestone in the international effort to gain proper reporting of offshore accounts and income,” said IRS Commissioner John Koskinen in a statement. “Together in partnership with other tax authorities, we are demonstrating how far we have come in the fight against offshore tax evasion.”
ATO hands over bank details to US Internal Revenue Service
THE AUSTRALIAN SEPTEMBER 24, 2015 12:00AM
The Australian Taxation Office has handed the US Internal Revenue Service details of more than 30,000 bank accounts containing more than $5 billion in the first transfer of information under America’s Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.The ATO said that in return for supplying the FATCA data, the IRS will give it information about Australians with US accounts that will be used to root out undeclared offshore income.Its figures imply the accounts, revealed to the IRS in the first tranche of data, have an average balance of more than $160,000.
Note: Link not guaranteed due to paywall
Jamaica reportedly will not take advantage of the delay in transmitting information to the IRS. (Waiting for source)
A Liechtenstein court that ordered a temporary injunction was to give a decision on September 18 (last Friday). We are looking for information on the decision. (hattip to Mary Margreiter)
CANADA
Making this a political issue in Canada & linking to October 19, 2015 election
Important Swing Ridings – Strategic Voting Necessary to Prevent CPC being elected
Riding: DELTA
The Honorable Kerry-Lynne Findlay
Minister of National Revenue (CRA) & defendant in Summary Trial
If you are voting strategically & your riding is Delta, pls vote Liberal
All Candidates Meeting
Wednesday, September 30, 7-9 pm North Delta Secondary School
11447 82nd Avenue Delta, BC V4C 5J6 MAP
This page has contact numbers, links to riding boundaries, other candidates running etc.
Riding: EGLINTON LAWRENCE
The Honorable Joe Oliver
Minister of Finance
If you are voting strategically & your riding is Eglinton Lawrence, pls vote Liberal
Get your T-Shirt HERE.
RESOURCES TO USE/SHARE
STRATEGIC VOTING:
Strategic Voting.com
AND Vote Together
FOR EMAIL:
ADCS PR pdf file: ADCS PR 19SEP15 pdf
ADCS PR png file: ADCS PR 19SEP15 png
ADCS letter to Minister Findlay: adcs_reqminfind_b_sep_21_2015-1
Elizabeth May GPC letter to PMSH pdf:fatca-lettertoprimeminister_0
Nathan Cullen NDP letter to Ministers Findlay & Oliver: 2015-09-21 Letter – Cullen to CRA-Fin re FATCA-1
John Weston CPC to Minister Findlay:Weston to MNR
For TWITTER:
Please use this hashtag: #StopFatca.
Please use RT on every Tweet
NB: If you RT someone, please put #StopFatca in the reply space above the tweet you’re retweeting. Otherwise, your RTs won’t show up in the feed and we want to see every single Tweet!
You can use this shortened link in order to get more info, hastags, etc into the tweet: http://bit.ly/1WaBY1i
Since it is a Twitter assault, may I suggest that you manageflitter.com use to identify your followers with the highest influence, and contact them to RT. Let the assault begin!
CRA
@KerryLynneFindl Minister of National Revenue
@AndrewTreusch Commissioner of Revenue
@JohnOssowski Deputy Commissioner of the CRA
@OTO_Canada Office of the Taxpayers Ombudsman
Ministry of Finance & Standing Committee
@MinJoeOliver Minister joe.oliver@parl.gc.ca 613-369-3710 TO office:Tel 416-781-5583 Fax: 416-781-5586
@AndrewSaxton1 Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance andrew.saxtion@parl.gc.ca
@KevinASorenson K.Sorenson@fin.gc.ca Minister of State (Finance)
@TimSargent Associate Deputy Minister
Members of Standing Committee for Finance are HERE .
If you already have followers who are not expats but may be sympathetic, share other political issues, please send them the tweet directly with the RT; don’t assume they will see it in their feed just because they follow you. Creating a network with other users is important in order to utilyze social media to the max.
Tweet to individuals
If you don’t want to write your own, you can copy/paste these (already tweeted so 140 characters or less)
CDN govt 2 turn over 1million+ of ur fellow CDNs 2 IRS
Let them know u won’t tolerate this #StopFatca RT
#StopFatca Stop PMSH from allowing IRS 2 manage
CDN banks! Protect CDNs’ privacy! Tell CDN govt NO!Pls RT
Financial info of 1million fellow CDNs 2 b given 2 IRS
bc PMSH wants 2! Violates sovereignty & privacy RT #StopFatca
Tweet to Govt/Mp’s etc:
No need 4 CDN govt 2 transfer CDNs’info due 2 IRS delay
Protect CDN sovereignty & privacy rights #StopFatca RT
Govt of CAD:IRS delays transfer of financial info-don’t betray 1million+ CDNS
Will remember on 10/19 #StopFatca RT
Govt of CAD:IRS delays transfer of financial info-don’t betray 1million+ CDNS
Will remember on 10/19 #StopFatca RT
Experienced users who can add a 2nd hashtag as well as using #StopFatca and RT
please also use the following #s as they will link to the network of other CDNs involved in the anti-harper govt re-election
#elxn42 #elxn2015 #ABC2015 #cdnpoli #GoHarperGo #harperman #StopHarper #Heavesteve2015
For FACEBOOK:
You can share from any of these groups:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/citizenshiptaxation/
https://www.facebook.com/ADCSovereignty/
https://www.facebook.com/ADSCanadienne/
https://www.facebook.com/The-Isaac-Brock-Society-341446319218930/timeline/
https://www.facebook.com/USExpatsCanada/
Or from these pages:
“https://www.facebook.com/CitizenshipTaxation/
https://www.facebook.com/AccidentalAmericans/
Other pages that also have this post/information:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AmericanExpatriates/permalink/516231728542904/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AARO.Open.Forum/permalink/10150558700159950/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/accidental.americans/permalink/121884294833336/
Do we expect an official answer by the 29 of the decision of the government to send or not the data?
How can they let us hanging like that? That’s cruel!
@noone; “Basically, if someone close their account in 2014 were their info still sent? How far back did they have to go?”
I would say that closed accounts in 2014 might have been ratted out if there was indica. But being year one if the file had been closed before year end, the IT people could have overlooked the account especially in FATCA Year One.
“How can they let us hanging like that? That’s cruel!”
They had planned to transmit yesterday so I am smiling right now. The pause is a sign of wisdom.
Repeating what Marie just said:
“Marie says
September 24, 2015 at 12:23 pm
The CRA will not transmit data before Sept 29, 2015. That gives us six days to keep the pressure on.”
The private banking information of those of us who are fully compliant has been sitting on an IRS (and FinCEN) computer since June. My Canadian only husband and I are extremely upset to think that CRA will pass on our banking information a year earlier than it is now required by the IRS (or rather that it will be passed along at all since we are compliant). It will take the IRS at least a year to hire enough staff to deal with matching up all this data (and year end data will usually not match highest balances).
15,000 people entered the 2009 OVDP and it took an average of 23 months per person to get a resolution (ie massive FBAR fines) because of lack of trained staff, furloughs, government shut-downs etc.)
Our detailed private financial information is now subject to three very real chances of hacking, identity fraud etc. (first: from our accountant to IRS in June 2015 (April 2016), second: FFIs to CRA and third: CRA to IRS). It does not pay to be a law-abiding citizen. Our Con MP (one of those who snickered at Calgary 411’s son’s predicament) just spouts “it’s the law” like a broken record. Hoping to be well enough to attend All Candidates meeting next Tuesday.
Dear anne boleyn,
I hope you are well enough to attend that All Candidates session next Tuesday and say just what you said here. Hand-outs might be one effective means of that should you not have a chance to ask questions or, better yet, to address a whole room in a Question Period. What has happened to you is a powerful story and it is more than criminal that your private financial information should be subject to an additional three possibilities of security breach.
(Good to hear from you!)
@Noone
I think the cutoff date was December 31, 2013 — the New Year’s Eve before last.
Had a really odd experience today. I asked a bunch of freshers if they had been asked anything about U.S. citizenship or similar when they opened their new bank accounts. Not one had. I don’t think any of them were U.S. persons and I don’t think that they are likely to have $10,000, but aren’t all new account holders supposed to be asked about U.S. tax status? I hope that whatever bank(s) they deal with aren’t just planning on dumping their data on the U.S. with the excuse that they couldn’t get them to verify that they weren’t U.S.persons.
noone and George,
It’s all speculation on what our *foreign financial institutions* will send or have sent on to our countries’ tax agencies and even if there is any balance of account definer they will go by or if they look for only one indicator: US indicia. Methods will likely all differ one FFI from another.
How will CRA or other countries’ tax agencies then determine what to send of the information they receive — not likely they have copies of our CLNs or like information to go by. They, too may likely take the easier way out and just send it all. In that case, flood the stupid IRS with the information of all and let them figure out who has that hidden USA tattoo. Surely, that’s the only way all of this turn-over of our private financial information is non-discriminatory in the first place. That’s just as absurd and wrong as any of it — but it might wake up the entire populace of our respective countries if everyone’s information is at risk.
We aren’t privy to any of their guidelines and any possible guidelines will likely be inconsistent, as inconsistent as the persons who will be reported and those who can somehow stay under the radar.
It’s the luck of the draw, good or bad. It’s all totally wrong — and our countries should have made sure there was a means to protect their people as well as their banks. Due process out the window. CBT of one exceptional country rules all other negligent countries signing-on to this absurdity.
Hasn’t the IRS said that without certification at account opening, the banks are supposed to refuse open the account for the customer?
@Bubblebustin
Yes, that is what the U.S. wants, but the U.K. has resisted, saying it will just send on the data from the accounts of those who are recalcitrant. I asked a group of eight students, all of whom had opened a bank account in the last few days, and none of them had any recollection of having been asked any questions about whether they were a U.S. citizen. I felt fairly safe in asking them since students tend not to have $10,000 lying about. But does this mean that they are all going to be labelled recalcitrant and their completely worthless data sent to the U.S.?
@Noone
Sorry, long day. I meant to type December 31, 2013. The New Year’s Eve before last was the cutoff point.
[fixed in original comment – calgary411]
@Publius
As was Canada, but will they instead take their marching orders from the IRS and turn customers away? IF past behaviour is any indication, then I’d say yes.
Your students weren’t even asked, how can they then be deemed recalcitrant?
Regarding ‘competent authority agreements’ (CAAs), the texts of the US/UK and US/Australia ones are here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/United%20Kingdom%20M1A%20CAA%20092315.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/M1A%20CAA%208_24_2015%20-%20AUS%20FINAL.pdf
I have only taken a glance, but at first blush they appear to be nothing more than a bunch of technical details about the format of data interchange and the data safeguards (yeah, right!) that the US will apply to stuff it receives. As ever, the word ‘exchange’ is used liberally to describe what we know will be a one-way data flow.
Considering there could very well be yet another US government “shutdown” Oct. 1, let’s hope they don’t send it Sept. 30.
If there IS another shutdown, I would hope this would help our case (eg. cancelled renunciations, no appoinments made, no CLNs out, etc.).
“The titles of both agreements include the words “to Improve International Tax Compliance and to Implement FATCA. I am afraid to imagine what that actually means.”
It means that malicious actions have to be attributed to malice rather than to incompetence. Here’s how we know they aren’t incompetent:
‘The signing of these Competent Authority Arrangements marks another significant milestone in the international effort to gain proper reporting of offshore accounts and income’ and penalties.
@All
Will the US provide reciprocity?
Do we have a date when the US is going to do reciprocity to other countries?
The USA will not give any dates for reciprocity. They appear to not be able to accept incoming data at this time(extending the time to send data 1 more year). This will get interesting as time goes on……
@NativeCanadian
How come the IRS got data on 30,000 Australian accounts.???? Is the IRS going to send it back to Australia?
I doubt the problem is that the IRS cannot accept data. That makes no sense. Worst case they can always receive the file and stick it somewhere to analyze later if necessary. And apparently they have already received data from Australia, anyway.
I suspect they really do want to give slower countries time to get their systems together, so that they are not in the position of actually having to enforce 30% withholding on anyone, which would create a big stink — especially if they are not yet providing meaningful reciprocity. Look for more attempts to get domestic bank reporting slipped into unrelated bills at midnight before voting in the next year. (Which still won’t constitute full reciprocity, but will be some kind of fig leaf for them.)
With regards to the Conservative MP’s letter to the Government about delaying transfer of data, the proof will be in the pudding after Election day next month. Will that MP continue their stance if re-elected? Or just go silent again?
The September 29 date probably means
The CRA are waiting for a reply to the formal request for a delay.
If the USA does accept the request by September 29. They will forward the info to avoid 30% withholding..
Obama does not like Harper, but this should not effect reply. Obama want The Liberal or NDP to win. Obama political hacks are working for both those party.
I should have said “the IRS cannot accept and work with Data sent yet” as it appears they do not have the manpower to deal with the data inrush. This might be the reason for the extension deadline. The IRS is underfunded and basically financially strapped from the recent articles in the media. This is not a good sign….
“NativeCanadian says
September 24, 2015 at 7:21 pm
The USA will not give any dates for reciprocity. They appear to not be able to accept incoming data at this time(extending the time to send data 1 more year). This will get interesting as time goes on……”
Does anybody read the agreement
4.Documentation of Accounts Maintained as of
June 30
, 2014
.
With respect to Reportable Accounts maintained by a Reporting Financial Institution
as of June 30, 2014:
a)The United States commits to establish, by January 1, 2017, for reporting with
respect to 2017 and subsequent years, rules requiring Reporting U.S. Financial
Institutions to obtain and report the Canadian TIN of each Account Holder of a
Canadian Reportable Account as required pursuant to subparagraph 2(b)(1) of Article 2 of this Agreement;
http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/pdf/FATCA-eng.pdf
page 17
If a Republican win the election, the USA banks may have enough influence to kill deal
@news
Perfect. So this means the US will have already mined three years worth of FATCA nuggets from all over the world before their false promises of reciprocity would even be noticed. I think they’ll be quite happy with that motherlode for a while. At their current staffing and budget levels it should only take them about a decade to process just half of those records.
Canadian Brockers….ROCK!!!!!!
I am so impressed…I am so proud….I am humbled…..I am in tears…..
All of YOU have moved a mountain….and you still have strength…..
That letter from the Conservative MP is a powerful tool to get other Cons off the fence and to get the Liberals off the fence!! Spread it, tweet it get it all over……..
A lesson I learned in working with US Politicians a long time ago….
1. Tell them what you want. (Delay FATCA handover.)
2. Tell them how they can get it to you. (Ask the USA and explain there is ongoing bonafide litigation that will be settled in 2016 and if the information is handed over now it may put the government in a bad position with the court.)
3. Tell them how they will benefit. (They will be perceived as sticking up for Canadians RAH RAH RAH, which means V-O-T-E-S in an election.)
A little help:
Pile on ReTweets and Favorites. Look up @KerryLynneFindl on Twitter and start from there.