I had a couple of my posts taken down by Keith Redmond at the American Expatriates Facebook Group.
The first made use of Lebron James comment, ‘I’m the best player in the world’.
I wrote, “Mirror Mirror on the wall, who is the best basketball player of them all?” Keith Redmond, the co-administrator of the Facebook group asked me what relevance it had to the group and I said it is analogous to American exceptionalism, “Mirror, Mirror on the wall, who is the most exceptional of them all?” It is really about the National Narcissistic Personality Disorder from which Americans suffer as a nation. It leads to the USA unilaterally imposing FATCA on the rest of the world as so beautifully captured in this video, which is still the best explanation of FATCA ever:
The second censored post reported on the State Department’s denunciation of Dominican Republic citing the United Nations human rights provisions. I said the USA was hypocritical because it violates the human rights of its own expats.
Then as Deedee Gierow, the Democrats Abroad co-administrator of the American Expatriates Facebook group, posted that she was sick and tired of all the bashing of the USA and that she, Keith and others were working very hard to lobby Washington (Facebook link). This solicited a discussion in which Redmond and Gierow heroically defended the purpose of the group and that they would henceforth delete any America-bashing content.
The American Expatriates group’s mission is to inform, educate, and provide the most up to date information regarding United States government policies affecting the lives of Americans living overseas. It is extremely important to mitigate the misconceptions about Americans living outside the United States vis-à-vis the public at large
It remains unclear to me how it is possible to have a group which discusses Citizenship Based Taxation and FATCA from an expat’s perspective without being anti-American. This is the conundrum–either the content is irrelevant (e.g., cookie recipes) or it is anti-American–e.g., discussions of the lives that are being ruined by FATCA and CBT. How do you stand by and allow innocent people to be destroyed by a foreign government and say positive things about that government?
There was some back and forth between myself and some of the other active members of the group, in which I learned that I am argumentative and offensive. Really? That really surprised me.
My third censored post was a comment: if we can’t really complain about how the USA is treating us, then we are supposed to be like a battered spouse, who quietly accepts abuse, and so I posted a link to the following page and suggested the situation was comparable to spousal abuse: Intimate Partner Violence Dynamics.
It seemed like Expat Forum deja vu, when I concluded that a censored forum is an oxymoron. So later when I suggested that some people would indeed leave the group because it wasn’t a safe place anymore, Redmond told me to leave. So I suppose my days are numbered.
I guess that is all I can write for now. My knee is bothering me and it is hard to stand up at my desk. In any case, it is good that some people are trying to lobby the US government, but I have no faith that that will change anything. So perhaps my cynicism and pessimism is not welcome in best of all worlds–but certainly not on certain “forums”. Cheers to you all.
The IRS even bashes the US government. The IRS occasionally tells the truth. This is one of those occasions.
This dates from 2011, before FATCA. The US government knows what it’s doing. The US government knew what it was doing when it made things worse. Anyone who thinks the US government is going to listen, when it didn’t even listen to the IRS, is dreaming.
http://www.taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov//userfiles/file/TAS_arc2011_execsummary.pdf
“The complexity of international tax law, combined with the procedural burden on international taxpayers, creates an environment where honest taxpayers who are trying their best to comply simply cannot. For some, this means paying more U.S. tax than is legally required, while others may be subject to steep civil and criminal penalties. Some U.S taxpayers abroad find the tax requirements so confusing and the burden of complying with them so great that they give up their U.S. citizenship. a recent IRS study of taxpayer needs and preferences showed that international taxpayers may have a greater current need for IRS services than the general taxpayer population. Yet while the IRS has invested hundreds of millions of dollars in international enforcement programs, it has not adequately improved taxpayer services that would foster compliance.”
“Many U.S. taxpayers abroad are confused by the complex legal and reporting requirements they face and are overwhelmed by the prospect of having to comply with them. Some are even renouncing their U.S. citizenship for that reason; about 4,000 people did so in fiscal years (Fys) 2005 to 2010. renunciations increased more than tenfold from 146 in Fy 2008 to 1,534 in Fy 2010, with 1,024 renunciations in the first two quarters of Fy 2011 alone. IRS publication 4732, Federal Tax Information for U.S. Taxpayers Living Abroad, illustrates the complexity of the filing requirements. it refers to at least eight other relevant IRS publications, totaling 563 pages, and the additional documents referred to by these other publications include 4,727 pages of instructions, 667 pages of forms, and another 1,928 pages of form instructions, or 7,322 total pages. Finally, a recent IRS study of taxpayer needs and preferences showed that international taxpayers may have a “greater current need for IRS services than the general taxpayer population,” and another IRS study identified nine international locations that warranted serious consideration for expansion of tax attache offices.”
” but want to keep US citizenship simply for the peace of mind that they could return to the US one day”
Nonsense. This is one of the lies that I often hear. I don’t want to return to the US. I wanted to keep U.S. citizenship because being American was part of my identity. So when I gave up my citizenship I had to give up part of me.
Is IBS being jammed? For many hours now, it takes 3 to 4 minutes for pages to load, if they load at all. Checking this site — http://www.isup.me — you can find out whether it’s only you having access issues, and each time I get the message “It’s not just you! isaacbrocksociety.ca looks to be down”.
After all the shrill vitriol on the Facebook expat groups, it makes me wonder if an irate patriot is attempting a DDoS (distributed denial of service) attack on this site.
Anyone else experiencing problems?
Oh, and Shadow Raider, I truly like your statement above.
@ Shadow Raider
I got the many homelanders concider me personally to be a tax cheat from they themselves. When I have tried to point out how CBT is problematic for myself overseas by commenting on a blog I was called just that, a tax cheat and told to ” pay, pay, pay!”
When I tried to inform one of my best friends from childhood he saw no problem with it. “You know why.” He asked. “There are a lot of tax cheats who have hidden their money overseas and the IRS is trying to get its due.”
On another completely non CBT related website I tried to warn people of this issue. A responder told me that the need to fund the various public services in the States outweighed any rights US expats may have. He did relent and write that those innocently caught should have their rights protected, but that would be after they are tried and found to be innocent.
Even my own parents are unsympathetic and have no time to listen to any of it. “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.” my own mother reminds me.
I am not surprised that homelanders are unaware of CBT. I knew nothing about it while living stateside. But those I have had contact with that do know of it support it fully and tell me that I am unpatriotic, unAmerican, an anarcist for not willingly and enthusiastically complying and paying.
Others assume that I am not telling the whole story. Surely the IRS has better things to do than chase after minnows. In their minds, I must have done something terribly wrong to bring this on myself.
You live back home, so you naturally have contact with many more homelanders than I. I am buoyed somewhat to learn that those you know realize the injustice. Are they joing the fight? Are they calling their Reps and Senators to stop this? If not, then they are deserving of criticism. It is they, through their elected representatives who act on their behalf, that is allowing this. It is they and they alone who can stop it. “All that is needed for evil to triumph is for god men to do nothing.”
“He did relent and write that those innocently caught should have their rights protected, but that would be after they are tried and found to be innocent.”
Which would be great, if we would get trials.
Those of us who obeyed the law don’t get trials, because courts rely on the IRS’s falsified records. We don’t even get to force the IRS to reveal its records, because we get summarily dismissed before the discovery stage is reached.
For an example of the IRS falsifying its records, do a Google search for:
Monica Hernandez IRS
That barely scratches the surface.
@Shadow Raider
A very thoughtful comment. Most Americans are not going to have any awareness of this issue at all and we shouldn’t forget that. It is really the specialized tax writing committees that are to blame on this and the Treasury Department. There are aspects of citizenship-based taxation policy that are shockingly wrong.
@Japan T
One of the things about this issue is that much of the anti-CBT side has some personal skin in the game, but why do commentators make pro-CBT comments below the line? Many of them just seem to be ill-informed windup merchants.
This is a very technical area, which means that it is going to be hard for it to catch the public’s imagination. I can’t see this ending well. Shadow Raider is exceptional. People who aren’t affected are unlikely to write to their representatives. Not that many people write individually written letters to their representatives anyway and those are the only ones that really count. Also, there are a lot more obvious problems in the world.
This is not a good situation: a country deeply in debt whose politicians do not really care about the under- or unrepresented non-resident taxpayers. Sometimes when I am feeling bad about the situation and it is getting to me, I sing ABBA’s ‘knowing me, knowing you’ to calm myself down. Yesterday it dawned on my that I probably should explain to my husband why I have been signing this song.
@Norman Diamond
Not so great really. Everyone overseas should (in this person’s view) be denied their rights until after the trial. From my point of view, that is meaningless.
And then there are the points you bring up.
“…they are actually more attached to the countries where they live, but want to keep US citizenship simply for the peace of mind that they could return to the US one day. Maybe the CBT debate should be centered on whether the right of return constitutes membership in the society or merely the eligibility for membership.”
The right to return is something that is enjoyed by any citizen of any free country in the world. So where’s the big deal? Furthermore, it is guaranteed by the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (13.2), which makes it a basic unalienable right of citizenship. The reason why people choose to keep their US citizenship is strictly no one’s business but their own. Personally, I happen to be a dual national who feels equal allegiance to both countries. This is my identity and why it is important to me. To hell with what people think of it. I don’t hang on to my US citizenship for convenience although it might come in handy one day if I decide to live in the US, something I have never done or plan on doing in the foreseeable future. As a foreign-residing US citizen I am part of the US Diaspora, not part of US society. The same is true for any citizen from any country who happens to live abroad. They have the right to return when they want and don’t get taxed for that basic human right. Why must it be so for the US? Why must the US make such a big deal of it? What’s the problem? No other country in the world seems to have a problem with this.
@Publius
I too believe this can not end well. I have posted on another thread that I believe that the US has so destroyed the trust the world’s banks put in it that the banks have no sensible choice other than to shut us out regardless of what the Congress or courts do. Yet I will still fight and fund the lawsuit.
Instead of ABBA, I have a pumping shanty from the days of the tall ships. The chorus of which is as follows.
Pump me boys, pump her dry, down to hell and up to the sky, bend your backs and break your bones, we’ve just a thousand miles to go”. The only two choices for them were to either continue pumping no matter how tired, worn out and sore or to “sail the ocean floor”.
I feel the same.
My spouse will not believe the threat until it is reality.
Speaking for myself, I have no intentions of ever returning to the US to live, but Dax made an excellent point in stating a desire to keep US citizenship as it is a part of his identity. The part of ‘wanting to keep US citizenship simply for the peace of mind that they could return to the US one day,’ it is such a load of crap. It is their RIGHT to return if they ever want to, and that is all there is to it!
Whether people decide to do with their US citizenships is really their business. It is not the business of others, that will do nothing but scrutinize, study, judge, and ultimately make more difficult, the already painful decision process of whether to keep, or renounce.
@Shadowraider
Your objective words of reason are always welcome! I look always look forward to reading your comments.
I do however, disagree with you about point number two (2). The image of FATCAT tax evaders living abroad has pervaded US media and used for whipping up populist support in the Homeland ever since I can remember. Chuck Schumer’s Ex-Patriot Act is just one of countless examples.
@ Barbara
It’s not just you. I’ve been having only intermittent access to Brock since last evening. And when I do get in, it’s after a pretty long wait. I’m away for the day now so hopefully it will be back to normal when I get back.
I will also have to disagree with ShadowRaider’s second paragraph as well.
I’ve been on various different forums over the past few years, pointing out the injustice of FATCA and CBT, and all I got in return was vitriolic attacks from the homelanders, accusations of disloyalty, being called a tax cheater, a traitor, un-American, etc….. Even my own family back stateside just shrugged their shoulders and said, “Oh well.”
Eventually, I stopped doing that altogether, once it became clear that people don’t want to hear the truth that threatens to put holes in their ridiculous myths. It’s just easier for them to wallow in the lies, than it is to have to contend with the cognitive dissonance, for in the end, the lies are all they know. It is their security blanket.
Since I am now disloyal for speaking up, I think that red coat will look nice on me. 🙂
I endorse Barbara’s words above”: “How about instead of tribalizing ourselves into different so-called camps, and accusing each other of somehow being less sincere or more combative, we stop taking out our pent-up rage on each other and focus instead on the issues which unite us? That goes for people at IBS and those on both sides of the latest spat at the Facebook group.”
We are all individual travelers on the US Person/FATCA/CBT express. We all have different pasts, different presents, and different aspirations for our futures. There is no one – no one – here on IBS, RO, DA or any other “alphabet” who is in exactly the same situation as myself and I do not share exactly the same concerns as others here, there or anywhere. But I have found all of you to be other individuals with whom I can join to fight the common enemy which is ill-intentioned toward us all.
@MuzzledNoMore, I have been finally dismembered from the American Expatriates Group as of early this morning. While I was busy writing blog post after blog post at Isaac Brock Society, about how the USA was violating the rights of expats, one of the co-adminstrators, who castigated me for doing nothing except useless complaining, was busy as an activist in the Democrats Abroad getting Obama re-elected.
While I think that each of us have a contribution to make, I was already living in a state of division from the the American Expatriate Facebook group. They made it clear by silencing my voice in their group.
So let’s not pretend that these people are partial or are really trying to work together for the good.
I see Obama as the US-expats’-human-rights violator-in-chief.
“How about instead of tribalizing ourselves into different so-called camps, and accusing each other of somehow being less sincere or more combative……”
Are you sure you want MY answer to that question?
When you put a small group of people up the same shit creek without a paddle, and have a large enemy hounding it at every turn, it won’t change the fact that the same small group of people, will have their own agendas, and their own solutions for getting out of their predicament, that may not be in line with some of the others in the group. Meanwhile, and this is the unfortunate part, so I won’t bother to sugarcoat it, but, desperate people WILL FUCK each other over to gain an advantage for themselves – even if they’re all collectively circling the drain.
Therefore, all of this talk about how people shouldn’t break off into tribes and such, is really just a load of whimsy, and is completely unrealistic. Life is not fair, and it never will be. Just stop that madness, stop singing Kumbaya, and deal with reality.
When it became clear that the AE group on Facebook was hijacked by partisan interests, and that all other dissenting voices were to be silenced, the speakers of said voices to be thrown under the bus, I wasted no time in leaving the group. The group’s interests had changed, and were no longer in line with my interests, so I didn’t have a lot of choice, but to go back to following my own path. I believe Petros and Walt continued on as long as they could until they were tossed from AE themselves. I am almost sorry that I didn’t go out with a bang with them, but in the end, I opted to leave of my own volition, and with grace, which was more than they, back at AE, deserved, for stabbing us in the back.
Far as I’m concerned, the homelanders abroad are my enemies now, too.
@dax, @kjm61, @mjh49783, I take back what I wrote about the reason for keeping US citizenship. Personally I don’t equate national identity or allegiance with the legal definition of citizenship, but now I see that many people feel that way. Of course, I agree that the right of return is not a justification for taxation.
@Japan T, @FromTheWilderness, @mjh49783, You’re right that some “homelanders” accuse people who are complaining about FATCA or renouncing US citizenship of tax evasion, but that’s different. What I’m trying to say is that there is no preconceived notion against Americans abroad in the minds of the US population. They don’t think that moving abroad is unpatriotic.
@Shadow Raider
I was accused of being a traitor, and un-American, too. Don’t forget that. I know I won’t.
To further add, from my experience, I got nothing but vile from a lot of homelanders for moving abroad, like how dare I decide to leave? On the other hand, I have spoken to some homelanders that wish they could do like I did, and emigrate, because in their hearts, they didn’t like where the US was going, either.
@Petros, I don’t follow the website your posts are being expelled from, but I strongly appreciate your posts here and your valuable perspective. I’m so thankful that this website exists for anyone caught between a rock (FATCA) and a hard place (the IGA that reinforces FATCA in Canada). Like most Brockers, I feel betrayed by BOTH the US and Canadian GOVERNMENTS. The American and Canadian people did not betray us. Who knew when Obama was reelected and the Cons were elected, that they would create this rock and a hard place? What is really sad is due to FATCA and IGAs, banks have been expelling their U.S.-tainted customers, and here has made it harder for “US persons” in Canada to bank and save up for retirement like other Canadians. I’d rather be expelled from a problematic website than expelled from a bank or credit union.
@IRSNEWS ??? (I’m sorry, forgot your the whole name) … you make the valid point that it is outrageous for the U.S. to bail out Wall Street, hedge fund managers, and other billionaires and create this mess for the globe. Canada was being prudent and therefore should not have had U.S. tell it what to do. The problem is that the U.S. is claiming to fix the problem through FATCA which is supposed to “get” the big fish! That’s why the Democrats and some RINOs endorse it, even though in practice, only a few big fish are trapped along with millions and millions of minnows. Why? Technically, FATCA taxes only people with incomes over $92,000, so it APPEARS to affect only the upper middle class and the wealthy. The problem is, first, that it gobbles up non-income sources such as retirement savings and capital gains on your house, and second, the IRS inflicts outrageous penalties on overseas Americans because they’re all treated like tax cheats, and third, like John Richardson points out so well, the IRS tax code is so convoluted and incomprehensible, that minnows who attempt to comply are forced to spend thousands of dollars ANNUALLY just to prove that they DON’T owe the IRS taxes (never mind possible penalties)! Like you pointed out, though, it’s just a matter of time before the BRICS kick the US off the throne that controls the global currency.
One thing that has me concerned is that banks are pushing for a cashless society, where no one can keep cash on hand, but has to use banks for everything, making easy for them to frisk your accounts. As posted yesterday (Jun 17) on http://www.jsmineset.com:
“At some point, with interest rates now near zero, banks will soon charge you to keep your money there! Citizens will then be better off keeping their cash under a mattress.
To avoid this, the US will ban cash.
Our policy in the US is now “saving is evil, spending all you have is good.” If you don’t have all your savings in your bank account, then you may be taxed to death on it, forcing you to spend!
In addition, banning cash will make it easier to confiscate your savings in a monetary crisis.” For now, Germany is resisting this trend. Let’s hope Canada will resist it as well.
They are not mad enough at these other sites to take valid action. No lawsuit for them, just notes, letters and nice opinions bounced back a forth. With no affirmative action there is no change. Lots of nice newspaper articles etc but that falls on deaf ears in Washington. I am surprised at these people living abroad because the banks are serious and without a bank even a mattress wears a little thin after awhile.
@Ann
So true, isn’t it?
How can we really be all in this together like the cheerleaders keep bleeting about, when our fight is not their fight, and our cause is not their cause?
They get themselves printed on a few obscure tax articles, and some fringe newspapers, or at most, the back pages on some more respectable rag, and they call that ‘getting the word out’. I have complained on more than one occasion that we ought to be framing our case as a human rights issue, and to try and make it into a mainstream topic, because peddling this as an obscure tax issue that most homelanders won’t care about, or are otherwise propagandized into an anti-expat mindset, was just not going to work.
But no. I was just one of the complainers that offered nothing constructive to the discussion.
No. Rather, they just didn’t want to hear any other ideas at all.
Now, I wash my hands of all of it. They can go their way, and I’ll go mine.
@MJH
Thank you for the kind words of support. I was getting tired of getting pummelled by Homelanders Abroad over there anyway. It was time to go, so I did it on my own terms by showing my contempt for their bullshit by posting cookie recipes. Imagine that, tossed for posting cookie recipes. LoL.
I find it to be very telling about their contradicting agenda of toeing the party lines for both parties at the same time, with one of them being the Party of FATCA.
“the homelanders abroad are my enemies now, too”… Amen.
Anybody who doesn’t want Citizenship taxation removed nor FATCA repealed, no matter how steep a mountain that we have to climb…isn’t worth associating with.
We need to prepare for war on the United States Government if they persist in pushing financial war on us. Call me crazy, but I don’t foresee the United States Government capitulating but I will fight, up to and including picking up arms to defend my family and right to financial security.
I am Canadian, my family is Canadian…and though my wife still hasn’t managed financially to free up enough money to go after her Canadian citizenship, in 9 years, she will have lived in Canada as long as she’s lived in the US of A. And Canada’s tax dollars have helped her with her education a far lot more than the United States ever has.
The American and Canadian people who perceive my wife and 8M+ others world wide as “tax cheats” and traitors” DID betray us. Those who voted for Obama created this mess and it’s their job to clean it up but they don’t give a shit because they just want “free money”.
FATCA was entombed in the HIRE act of 2010 (in Obama’s first term as President). That was his intent all along. Don’t make it seem like this was done when he was re-elected. That is a crock of shit. IT was in his FIRST term as President that he eyeballed the money of those living abroad as a potential cash-cow. And the fact that the Cons went along with it. Stephen Harper is trying to make Canada USA Lite and I’ll be damned as a Canadian born citizen, if I’m going to let him continue to do it. What he needs is a good tall tree and a noose wrapped around his neck…and hung as a traitor to Canada.