I’ve learned from the American Expatriates group on Facebook that those seeking German citizenship may obtain it before renouncing a citizenship when the cost for renunciation costs more than a month’s gross wages (Note: Brian Gaber says this is completely false; a lawyer says it is not the law, but an interpretation of the law, so go ahead and try it anyway). This in a list of other Ausnamen (exceptions) from those who must renounce their citizenship before become a German citizen:
wenn der andere Staat unzumutbare Bedingungen für die Entlassung aus der Staatsangehörigkeit stellt, z. B. überhöhte Gebühren (mehr als ein Brutto-Monateinkommen, aber mindestens 1.280 €).
This means that Americans may obtain German citizenship without having to renounce US citizenship in advance, if the $2350 renunciation fee is higher than 1280 € and also higher than a month’s gross wages. It also makes it clear that the reason is that any fee a person’s monthly wage is exorbitant (unzumutbare Bedingungen) . Immigration Germany (the Ausländeramt) is showing both compassion and flexibility. This is exemplary pragmatism and should be imitated by bureaucrats around the world. It is the opposite of the current State Department approach, which is tyrannical. The current exchange rate 1.11. 1280 €=US $1421.
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Very interesting – thanks for the post.
However, the way I read the German text, it is saying – if the fee is more than one month’s gross income or a minimum of EUR 1,280. So if your monthly gross income is higher than $2,350 then this fee would not be considered exorbitant. That’s how it sounds to me.
Isn’t obtaining another citizenship necessary before renunciation if one is to avoid statelessness?
In this case, could obtaining German citizenship be used to document that one relinquishes US citizenship (as opposed to renunciation), which would be free?
Has this German rule been thought up specifically for the US situation, or was it pre-existing. If it was, what was its initial motivation? It would be interesting to know if it was devised to counter punitive exit fees from totalitarian regimes (East Germany?)
@Jim: Google translate makes me think you may have a point. If the fee were €1000, it would not be deemed excessive, even if you earn €500. But if you earn €6000 … Nevertheless one could argue “after taxes” or whatnot and in practice they would probably just peg it at said amount.
@Fred
Isn’t obtaining another citizenship necessary before renunciation if one is to avoid statelessness?
Yes, but that’s the way it generally works in Germany. I was technically stateless (except in the eyes of the US state dept.) from the day I renounced US citizenship until I naturalized in Germany.
In this case, could obtaining German citizenship be used to document that one relinquishes US citizenship (as opposed to renunciation), which would be free?
Yes. In fact, I argue that merely applying for naturalization constitutes an expatriating act (i.e. you wouldn’t have to wait until actually naturalizing before making a case of relinquishment with the US state dept.).
Has this German rule been thought up specifically for the US situation, or was it pre-existing. If it was, what was its initial motivation? It would be interesting to know if it was devised to counter punitive exit fees from totalitarian regimes (East Germany?)
It was pre-existing. Generally dual citizenship is not allowed, but to enable those who come from countries who don’t allow their citizens to renounce (or make it exceedingly difficult, such as is now the case in the USA) there is such a provision.
Thanks Jim, I’ve changed the post to reflect this better reading of the provisions of the Ausname.
The cracks continue! Keep up the good work everyone.
@ Petros:
Thanks for the write-up.
It is conceivable that this approach may also be used by moderate-income Americans naturalizing in Austria and the Netherlands, two countries that do not normally allow retention of existing citizenship when naturalizing:
Austria:
Austrian naturalization law requires that applicants “give up their current citizenship, insofar as it is possible and reasonable.”
Relevant sentence in Austrian citizenship law:
“h. Ausscheiden des Staatsbürgerschaftswerbers aus seinem bisherigen Staatsverband, soweit dies möglich und zumutbar ist.”
http://www.staatsbuergerschaft.gv.at/index.php?id=5
Netherlands:
“Exceptions
You do not have to renounce your current nationality in the following cases when:
– You will have to pay a large sum of money to the authorities in your country of origin in order to renounce your current nationality. You must be able to demonstrate this.”
Another exception that might be applicable to potentially “covered expatriates” is:
“- You will lose certain rights when giving up your current nationality leading to serious financial losses, for example with respect to laws of succession. You must be able to demonstrate this. ”
https://ind.nl/EN/individuals/residence-wizard/Pages/renouncing-nationality-and-exceptions.aspx
It is unknown whether the $2,350 renunciation fee would be considered an “(un)reasonable“ for Austria or “a large sum of money” for the Netherlands, and may be income dependent as it appears to be in Germany.
If nothing else, if Austria and the Netherlands have required US citizens naturalizing to renounce in the past it might force them to change to requiring Americans to relinquish, denying the State Department the $2,350 renunciation fee.
Just a suggestion – if someone doesn’t want to ‘tip off’ their bank by using a US IP address to alert them you may be an infamous ‘US Person,’ the easy remedy to this is to purchase a VPN (watch is often used to bypass copyright restrictions on TV network websites). These services often allow you to pay on a month to month basis for about $9 – $10 USD.
This may be helpful if for example you spend a few months in the US but need to keep track of your finances in your home country.
So for example, you buy the VPN, you login to the VPN from the US, then go to your bank’s internet banking website as usual. The difference is for example, if the VPN was for Canada, when you login in to your Canadian bank account from the US, it will show a Canadian IP address to your Canadian bank. The bank will believe you’re in Canada and none the wiser.
This may be useful for ‘snowbirds’ who have overstayed in the US and don’t want to have their account flagged as a ‘US Account’ by their Canadian bank.
So just Google ‘VPN TV’ there’s a number of them out there.
http://schiffgold.com/commentaries/peter-schiff-renouncing-us-citizenship-gold-videocast/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=videocast&utm_campaign=15-03-03
The “exceptions” are to the general rule that Germany discourages multiple citizenships. Here is the page link to the general rule that was lacking in the original post, http://www.bundesregierung.de/Webs/Breg/DE/Bundesregierung/BeauftragtefuerIntegration/Staatsangehoerigkeit/anspruchseinbuergerung/_node.html#doc133996bodyText8
http://www.sovereignman.com/trends/the-chinese-have-put-out-billboard-ads-announcing-the-renminbi-as-the-new-world-currency-16318/
Someone better tell the Chinese to stop advertising their currency as a alternative to the US dollar in Thailand!
Yes the bank on the billboard is 70% Chinese government owned, but obviously the Chinese have other ideas regarding Washington’s US centric world it lives in.
That’s pretty eye-opening, Don.
Related regarding the currency of gold and silver:
http://schiffgold.com/commentaries/peter-schiff-renouncing-us-citizenship-gold-videocast/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=videocast&utm_campaign=15-03-03
I wonder if “just renounce” Con MP would find the new renunciation fee excessive and exorbitant, as the Germans do.
Complain as I may about the US, I’m not sure I’m ready for Chinese domination.
As for gold, it does have some intrinsic value as a commodity, but not that much. It can wildly fluctuate too, and remains as risky as the rest. A world where the dollar falls off the cliff isn’t going to be fun, even with some gold in your safe. As for bitcoin, while we’re on the alternative currency subject, until somebody explains it to me in clear terms, count me out.
@Fred – The reserve currency game is simple. In 1971, Nixon took the US off the gold standard, and Kissinger invented the Petrodollar as an alternative to keep up demand for the US dollar and retain its position as reserve currency. Because every country needs oil to run its economy, they have no choice but to keep US dollars handy to buy oil and other commodities such as copper or iron ore and other commodities priced in US dollars. The reserve currency acts as the currency to buy the required raw materials necessary to run an economy.
That’s why all central banks need to hold US dollars.
Now in 2015 with China rising to becoming the biggest economy in the world it begs the question why the US should retain reserve currency status when an alternative is becoming available namely the Chinese Yuan.
The US has abused its position as reserve currency status by using its position to quite frankly piss off many countries by using sanctions, fining their banks, extraditing individuals, and exporting US laws as with the example of FATCA which this website is fighting.
The question for the future is do I continue using the US dollar with all the US Government’s terms and conditions and penalties if I either mess up or ignore the T & Cs’s or use another currency whose backer at present allows a free for all in its use?
So no FATCA, no penalties, no sanctions, no regulations????
That’s the position the US is getting itself into by making the US a difficult currency to deal in and actually promoting its own decline and driving the world’s central banks to look at the up and coming alternatives.
This is meant to add a bit more detail to the reply of “notamused” to “Fred”.
After one has applied for German citizenship and met the citizenship requirements (but is still a US citizen) one receives a “Zusicherung” (guarantee) of German citizenship. That guarantees that the applicant will receive the German citizenship after he has renounced his previous (US) citizenship. This “Zusicherung” is a pre-condition for the renunciation of the US citizenship at the US consulates in Germany. After one receives the CLN, one goes back to the German authorities, where the German citizenship is granted (unless one has robbed a bank in the meantime).
One is indeed stateless after the act of renunciation at the US consulate. One can still travel in the Schengen boundaries of Europe, since no identity document is checked. Travel outside of “Schengenland” would be however difficult.
After reading Petros original posting, I studied the law and the internal interpretation rules. None of them came up with the quote from Petros. I followed the discussion and noticed that the Federal Commissioner for Migration, Refugees and Integration has the quoted opinion. So what does this mean when trying to obtain German citizenship without renouncing U.S. citizenship? First of all the individual case decider would not want to believe this and discuss this with his or her superior. [a lot of water will flow through the river Spree — as we say here in Berlin] The quoted statement from the Federal Commissioner is not “law” but just the “private” opinion of this authority. Nevertheless, I would suggest to use this as an arguement on behalf of my client. The legal quality of this arguement is “ambiguous”. It is not statutory or case law — both of which have binding authority for an office’s decision. On the other hand, somebody way far up in the hierarchy expressed a legal understanding which itself cannot really be only “bla bla”. This reminds of the legal concept of “ober dictum” in common law. However that may be, Germany belongs to the civil law jurisdictions.
To wrap it all up: Go ahead and use the arguement and insist that it is binding law. It for sure will not jeopardize your application.
A friend of mine who claimed German nationality under Art. 116 of the Grundgesetz (Basic Law) as the child of Jews who emigrated in the Nazi era, was forgiven the obligation to renounce his US citizenship on the basis of the QDOT rules: discriminatory treatment as to estate tax where the surviving spouse is an alien.
@Don: a belated thanks for a clear explanation. I certainly hope that alternatives will coexist. A monopoly is never good. Only a balance of powers is beneficial to most. Hopefully China and the EU will counterbalance the USD. It’s already happening.
I agree that the US has abused the status of the USD. For instance being able to borrow in your own currency is a huge advantage. After a while the debt is no longer your problem, since you print the money.
Norway, which does not normally allow applicants for naturalization to retain their existing citizenship, also has a hardship exception for high fees to be “released” from the new citizen’s former citizenship. For adults it is 4% of general income and for children 2% of the parents’ income.
This appears to apply to US citizens with annual incomes of less than $58,750*, where the adult is naturalizing, and with annual incomes of less than $117,500**, where a child is naturalizing. It is not known whether the Norwegian authorities would require that the naturalization applicant with US citizenship relinquish to avoid the $2,350 fee.
“Exemption from the release requirement
In certain cases, the UDI can make exceptions from the requirement that you must renounce your previous citizenship:”
“The main rule for what constitutes ‘unreasonably burdensome conditions’ is that the release fee must not exceed four per cent of your general income. (How much this is will be stated in your tax certificate and tax settlement). If you have care and control of children under the age of 18, you are exempted from the release requirement if the fee, if relevant including the fee for any children who are to be released, will exceed two per cent of your income. The release fee must be more than NOK 2,500 in order to for you to be eligible for an exemption.”
An additional exemption listed is the following, similar to what was mentioned by Andy05 above:
“You can also be granted an exemption if releasing you from your citizenship would result in you losing property, inheritance or rights (e.g. the right to a pension) in this country. We will take this into consideration when considering your case.”
“If you believe that you fall under one of these exemption groups, you must enclose a written statement of the grounds for this and documentation from the public authorities in your home country that shows why you cannot renounce your citizenship.”
http://www.udi.no/en/word-definitions/release-from-previous-citizenship/
* Adult: $2,350 / (1-.04) = $58,750
** Child: $2,350 / (1-.02) = $117,500
@andy05: Um, we are discussing here naturalization and not appling for recognition of being a country’s national. These are absolutely seperate issues though they both deail with citizenship.
I am currently in Frankfurt. My marriage unfortunatley split up a few months ago, so the Ausländerbehörde gave me a year to stay. I then must show income. They weren’t interested that my mother sends me tons of money. I am – or better said – was studying physics in Frankfurt, but now I will seemingly have to quit and start working in order to not be deported by the Ausländerbehörde. I simply want to stay here and continue living my life and stuying what I love. Money isn’t a problem. I’ve outgrown the US and speak German fluently. The Germans never know I’m an American…so it’s all just because of beaurocracy.
I was at the Standesamt and will apply after a positive consultation for a so called “Ermessenseinbürgerung”: I only have to have been here then for 6 years (I’ve been here for over 7). It’s enough for them that my mother signs a slip saying she supports me and my Abitur with the score of 1.0 (A+) also proves I know enough about the culture, language and political system.
My fear is however that time will run up before I get my citizenship and that I then must deal again with the Ausländerbehörde. Instead of possibly being a working slave for the next year or year and a half, just in order to fend off deporation, I have simply considered giving up my US-citizenship in order to regain my peace and quiet again.
My question would then be: What happens when I report myself as stateless to the Ausländerbehörde? Could they still deport me? Would they arrest me? I wouldn’t mind having a stateless pass port, as long as it means that I can continue going to school, using a bank account and sleeping in a bed. I’m tired of the paper-driven insanity. I never took welfare here, I never have caused a problem. I’m the best example of an integrated person. I simply want to continue living the life I chose to live without bothering anyone.
I thank anyone for their help or experiences.
Can`t you get a student visa?
AD, getting rid of a citizenship does not at all mean just shreddering your passport. Living abroad, you will have to visit the next consulate and apply to relinquish your citizenship. As an American, you will be subjected to an “exit tax” and this can also last some time. In the event, you run out of time, I could imagine a way to keep you in. You would have to apply for a permit based on “other grounds” §7 AufenthG. Good luck. As another reader suggested, switching to a “language permit” will not work when you already fluently speak the language or to studying when you already have a full vocational training…