This evening I attended a Toronto meeting of students, Democrats, Republicans, and Toronto US Consular officials which was sponsored by the Munk School of Global Affairs. U.S. Consul General James Dickmeyer gave a short speech and I had conversations with the C-G and two Consular officials on the wait time to obtain a renunciation meeting in Toronto.
Consular Official “R” — I pointed out to R that there are many Canadians in the Toronto area with unwanted U.S. citizenship who need to renounce this citizenship. R advised that the wait time is now up to September 2015, in part because of a three week or so delay caused by the Pan AM games (yes, you heard that right).
C-G — I then spoke to the C-G, explained the situation that these unfortunate people need to get on with their lives, and asked that since he is the “boss” he needs to reorganize staff duties and shorten the time to a renunciation appointment as bookings are now in September. There was some confusion as he felt that I must have meant September past (I believe that he was unaware of the wait time). Once this was clarified he argued that the boss really does not have that much power and that I should go back and speak to R (apparently the man with the money) which I did (see below).
We debated a few points: C-G feels that citizen-based taxation is not “so bad” as taxes are never owed to the IRS because Canadian taxes are higher (I corrected this impression). C-G complained that Canadians are “only now” coming to renounce. I explained that many are only now finding out that the U.S. considers them to be U.S. citizens. I mentioned our FATCA IGA lawsuit and C-G responded by saying that we will just hurt the banks etc…
Consular Official R (second conversation) — Told R that his boss claims that R has the power to shorten renunciation wait times. R responded by saying that the renunciations are a low priority that do not compare with high priority activities such as passport renewals, and that there will be no change in priority. R advised that Toronto people should go to Calgary or Montreal to renounce. I asked R how would a low income person find the funds to do this.
IRS compliant American — Happened to get into conversation with American very proud of filing tax returns to IRS for 30 plus years and paying no tax. Feeling nasty I asked him what does he think will happen when he sells his expensive house that he has lived in for all these years (now he knows).
Dems Abroad — In a short speech Dems Abroad promised that Americans abroad should not worry about the safety of voting in an election because the information is not passed on to the IRS (I think the fellow was serious). One DA presented to R their approach to FATCA (modify but do not kill). I explained that the Alliance and Republicans Overseas want to kill the entirety of the beast.
There was nothing else for me to say, so I left.
Oh the irony. So “US Persons” overseas are to remain compliant because they get “services” of the USA since they are a “US Person”. “US Person” decides to (for once) use those services and are told “sorry pal, you ain’t a priority, take it somewhere else”.
As I mentioned elsewhere on IBS, I received an appointment for March 9, 2015 yesterday. Maybe I was just lucky enough to grab a cancellation as I had been told on October 7 that they were fully booked through May 31, and not accepting any new requests for appointments until “early November”.
Seems to me they should allocate the increased fee to providing enough staff to process requests in a timely manner.
Seems to me they should start offering mass renunciation meetings.
You ever get the feeling that you’re living in a parallel universe, or worse, feel like you have a fully conscious mind trapped in a completely paralyzed body?
Time to picket the Toronto consulate.
Stephen Kish, I’d just like to thank you immensely for the work you’re doing for so many of us. I’m impressed especially with the “blow” you landed on the poor 30-yr compliant sucker you met….opening his/her eyes to the reality of US bullying.
It’s truly is unfortunate that a man of your impressive resume is “wasting” so much time on such an absurd situation, so I just wanted to let you know that you’re GREATLY appreciated. Hopefully we’ll be free of this tyranny soon (Repubs win tonight!?) and you can get back to improving the world for even more people.
@ Bubblebustin “parallel universe . . .” We are caught in a nightmare that we can’t awaken from. . Unbelievable, no wonder people think we make this up. Time to use a mail-in system. Wait times are another impediment to renouncing and keep you in their tax system longer.
Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary are supposed to have the highest populations of US citizens, we haven’t heard for a while about the wait times for Vancouver or Calgary.
So your bank asks if you are a US person. You reply ‘no I relinquished yrs ago when I became Canadian. Great can we see your CLN? I don’t have one. Why not? Because I can’t get an appointment at the consulate.——Reasonable explanation ????
Thank you for initiating those conversations Stephen. I won’t even write using the words I really am thinking in response to the consular official R’s statement that:
“……. the renunciations are a low priority that do not compare with high priority activities such as passport renewals, and that there will be no change in priority. R advised that Toronto people should go to Calgary or Montreal to renounce……”
It is obvious that the consular official, and his US masters are deliberately engaging in overt obstruction of the American citizen right to renounce and the universal human right to choose one’s citizenship and allegiance. And doing so overtly on the Canadian sovereign soil that hosts them.
How dare the US do this to Canadians living in our own nation? How dare Stephen Harper and the Conservatives collude – standing by without comment while those citizens they are sworn to serve and protect are held in thrall to a foreign government against their will – INSIDE CANADIAN BORDERS no less?
The US is hell bent on proving that it will NOT do what is right or just or fair. It is busy providing more and more irrefutable and documented evidence for the international human rights complaint. It is hellbent on creating a situation which is more and more obviously unlawful and untenable.
Unlike FATCA, this is an issue that is easy to explain, and will resonate with fellow Canadians. The US is officially preventing Canadian citizens who want to be Canadian only from severing their vestigial US status, and keeping Canadians American against their will. How will that play in the Canadian media?
It’s so sad that the innocent have to wait so long to lead normal lives. 🙁
@ Stephen Kish
You might find this sounds familiar …
Dr. Kish, you could have easily shrugged and walked away from the FATCA fight because you are “IRS compliant forever” (certainly out of necessity but also with some reluctance I imagine). Instead you are giving your time and wisdom to help others who are in a more precarious situation and desire nothing more than the normal life they had before FATCA. Thank you.
I would just add that you did us proud this evening and when you left, you had to have left them doing a little soul searching and it’s high time they did. Again, thank you.
@ badger
Your last paragraph points out yet another tack we can take to badger the FATCAphiles. The USA is engaging in obstructionism, pure and simple, with its tactic to slow down the renunciations by increasing the cost and the wait times for appointments.
I think we really should take strong steps to pressure the process be changed.
If they can force people to be punished for not filing taxes and information reports then they can damn well provide the same services they do for other Americans. That fee, $2350 should be enough right there.
We start with Heyman and on from there. This is beyond ridiculous.
And the other good news is the Republicans have the senate now (as well as the House.). 52 – 45 at the moment. (Levin is gone!!! That in itself is something to celebrate.) We must push for their promise of repealing FATCA, to be honoured.
Thank you, Stephen. This is even more unbelievable than one could have thought. A parallel universe, for sure, or a Mad Hatter’s tea party.
Just curious.. have more Americans renounced/relinquished under Obama than any President in history?
So imagine you were one of the conquered peoples who tried to have conversation with a Roman official during the Roman empire? The Romans were there to bring civilization to a backward world.
Forget the DA or the ACA – unless they publicly come ‘out of the closet,’ and start venting the true opinions of most likely the majority of their members about FATCA, they’ll just keep walking the political tightrope hoping not to fall.
What’s remarkable over the last few years is how the taboo of ‘renouncing’ has been swept aside amongst the ex-pat community.
What makes me laugh is I was talking to a Homelander the other day and mentioned that I’m an ex-pat and he started with the ‘keeping your citizenship nonsense.’. He was put straight about people wanting to renounce now not keeping it. More puzzled looks.
“……. the renunciations are a low priority that do not compare with high priority activities such as passport renewals, and that there will be no change in priority. R advised that Toronto people should go to Calgary or Montreal to renounce……”
… the 21st century version of “let them eat cake”. I am totally appalled by the responses you received at the Toronto consulate, Stephen.
Stephen,
I trust you will pass your experience on to Jim Butera. This is serious fodder for the legal action against the State Department.
Wonderful job! Well done!
You have confirmed the following:
1. The U.S. Consulate doesn’t have a clue what is going on in the wonderful world of “U.S. Citizenship Abroad”.
2. The U.S. Consulate doesn’t care what happening in the wonderful world of “U.S. Citizenship Abroad”.
3. The U.S. Consulate doesn’t understand what U.S. taxation really is and how U.S. taxation impacts the wonderful world of “U.S. Citizenship Abroad”.
4. The clearest proof that a U.S. citizen abroad is NOT tax compliant is his belief that he has filed for 30 years and does NOT owe any U.S. tax (this jerk is not filing his returns correctly).
5. Democrats abroad is absolutely delusional – “Stepford Wives” anyone?
I have a suggestion:
Why not make a short skit to duplicate Stephen’s conversations.
Let’s call it:
“Mr. Kish goes to the Toronto Consulate”.
Could you all suggest various Brockers to play the various roles.
This will be a low cost video – it will go viral on YouTube.
Let’s get MoFreedom to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-EVF7CZt_w
In the passion of Christ, the thing that was more amusing than Jesus speaking Latin, was Pontius Pilate speaking Aramaic. What imperial power bothers to learn the backward languages of the people they oppress.
In French speaking Africa, le French language was imposed upon Africans so that they could be good household staff.
These American diplomats are so high above us lowly expats.
Remember this post? http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/08/08/paternalism-and-how-it-works/
@USCitizenAbroad
Wonderful idea! Of course Stephen will play himself!
I volunteer for any part. Too much fun to pass up!
We could really do a lot
with this…Background extras in period costumes bound in chains with signs “no taxation without representation” Rounded up & branded “USPersons” (like cattle)…..sold at auction (after all, we are property of the US from birth…)to the highest bidder..applying for a bank account with a *dumb blonde* teller (note to Petros-now I can be Goldie Hawn, lol!) trying to figure out which box to check- citizen, former green card holder, border baby, accidental, relinquisher from the past, unfortunate alien spouse,etc exposing how complicated this is and how totally inappropriate it is for them to determine citizenship yada yada yada
there HAS to be some spoofing of Levin, Shulman, tax cheats Geithner &Rangel, and esp Keddy & perhaps some of our favorite compliance condors, demonstrating some of those famous sayings..”your either an American citizen or you’re not an American citizen..”. etc etc
The possibilities are endless…
Would there be any way we could have a poll
at the end where viewers could vote – questions exposing this ludicrous situation; asking people to pressure their Reps and course, a link to the donation button on the adcs-adsc page
Stephen,
You have my thanks as well for representing all of us last night. The hours and hours and hours that you have put into this — what a big chunk out of your family and your work life.
What WAS the answer to “how would a low income person find the funds to do this?”? I wish the media would pick up on this obscene exceptional US attitude of the people who man the U.S. Consulates in Canadian cities.
PierreD has it right.
We all need to get back to our lives and the things we can do to improve our own communities in the country we have chosen to live in instead of fighting for our rights as the rights of any other here. It is a waste of other things we should be doing!
It is so Americanly “exceptional” the answers you were given. It indeed strengthens my resolve to continue the fight.
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
@ Calgary411 & Stephen,
I wonder what some of our journalist friends would do with this Nov 4 “conversation”.
I also wonder what the US Ambassador in Ottawa would say/do, or the Secretary of State.
Clearly the Toronto consulate folks have “spoken” about their interest in assisting US Citizens who happen to live outside the homeland. Are visitors wanting visas more important than US Citizens? Couldn’t they pull some off that desk to help the “renunciation/relinquishment” desk? Maybe these foreign visitors should be told to go to another city for service.
BTW, Halifax is a one-visit renunciation site that others might consider if needed; I don’t know what the wait-time is there.
pukekonz,
Here is the graphic answer: http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-drives-record-10-000-wealthy-u-s-taxpayers-to-renounce-citizenship, placed in Media thread today by Watcher.
This article, unfortunately, again states:
I am on that “Name and Shame List” as are my husband and my daughter. For us to have been deemed by the U.S. “covered expatriates” to be on this list is to laugh hysterically.
@Calgary,
R did not respond to my point that low income Canadians in Toronto would have difficulty in coming up with funds to travel to Calgary/Montreal to renounce — and I did not expect that he would respond. The conversation just ended.
@LM,
Very interesting question of yours whether visitor visa processing would be given higher priority than renunciation. I suspect that even though renouncers are for the moment U.S. citizens, they would be given much lower priority by consulates than visitors. I wish I had asked that question.