This week I had a chat with a kind donor to our Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit. She is a Canadian citizen who has lived in our country for more than four decades.
I asked her (as I now ask many) to predict what Canadians will do when the FATCA law identifies them and turns them over to a foreign country.
This Canadian told me how she will respond when her neighborhood bank turns her over to the United States Internal Revenue Service. She said:
“First time visitors to the “Isaac Brock” and “Maple Sandbox” websites are regularly advised to “Read, read, read before you take any action” when you discover that the IRS wants you.
Generally good advice, I would say, except that I would change the channel a bit and say “Read, read, read, and then take NO action“.
I would strongly urge people to read, read, read, and then take the time to live with the injustice, the absurdity, the absolute moral bankruptcy of FATCA before they commit themselves to any course of action.
Live with the feelings of unfairness and discrimination that surround FATCA; let the oppressiveness of the situation really take hold. Then take a deep breath, and another, let the fear subside, and then let the outrage and anger come forth and “Just say NO”.
We all know that the whole premise of FATCA (Citizenship-Based Taxation) is fundamentally wrong, so why do so many of us so readily agree to participate in a system that is “wrong”? Fear, anxiety, expediency, whatever?
When I am faced with a really complex situation that is impossible to figure out, and FATCA would be one of those, I try to pare things down to fundamental principles that let me see things more clearly. Really, in my mind, FATCA is no different from the scenario of the school yard bully.
The Harper Canadian Government should have stood up to the U.S. bully’s threat of sanctions and said “No”. It didn’t.
Canadian banks and financial institutions should have refused to become agents of the IRS. They didn’t.
Our Members of Parliament should have challenged the government to address issues of sovereignty, privacy, and equality of ALL Canadians. By and large, with a few notable exceptions, they didn’t.
So now it’s my turn; it’s my turn to stand up and say “No”. And I will.
I will refuse to fill out any “foreign” tax information forms, I will refuse to give my financial institutions any information on place of birth, and, if necessary, I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.
I will refuse to let the bully play in my yard.
I realize that this is a course of action (or inaction) that might make some people feel uncomfortable. But, speaking personally, I feel much more uncomfortable being forced to do things that I know are wrong, and I know that FATCA is wrong.
It’s just wrong, plain and simple. So I’m not doing it.
I am now, and will remain, willfully non-compliant. End of story.”
The next time Quebeckers vote on independence, this could prove to be a big question: Will Quebec laws allow FATCA? Quebec would be a welcome tax haven if it had banking secrecy.
In this answer from TD to one of their customer’s questions TD Helps — Question, they say,
Of course TD would say that, they currently have a commercial running in Canada calling themselves a US bank!
Meanwhile, TWICE I’ve openly discussed my past “US personhood” (per the US) with Scotia, and they have ZERO interest in my proof that I am not, because there was no US-ness on my accounts.
@Bubblebustin
“Actually, Dash, I think telling the truth would clear up any misconceptions the bank might have in this case.”
It will if the bank acts with common sense. Unfortunately in the FATCA-esque world there is no guarantee of that.
If–for example–the bank starts requiring documentation of all someone’s travels in and out of the US or they will automatically be considered a ‘US person’–and the person doesn’t have complete documentation–they could be in trouble. Such a person would be sorely tempted to lie.
Someone posted yesterday or so that the Asian banks are starting to demand a LOT of detailed info from people they suspect to be US persons–so the scenario I describe is realistic–even if it isn’t quite that bad in Canada yet.
“Remember, Martha Stewart didn’t do time for insider trading, just lying about events pertaining to it.”
But she was in fact guilty of insider trading even if that wasn’t the actual criminal charge. I’m referring to a situation where there is no underlying offense because the person is NOT a US person.
@Calgary: I am not reassured.
No, it is not reassurance, but it is evidence of what they (or one of their spokespersons at TD Help) have stated.
@Blaze,
I looked at the TD site today after another Brocker mentioned it. It is very detailed about FATCA, as you list. I am a RBC client and I have heard nothing from them and there is nothing on their website. I asked my financial adviser at the bank last June and he said nothing was there. Maybe TD has greater exposure to US extortion than Royal Bank?
Here is RBC’s FATCA information: http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
Other links can be found in this post: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/06/26/please-provide-in-this-post-questions-big-canadian-banks-will-ask-new-account-holders-on-july-2-2014/
For what it’s worth, I agree that the question regarding place of birth is a game changer regardless of how one would answer the question is he/she holding US citizenship on a bank form. When it comes to bank officer’s questions about where I was born or what my ‘ethnicity’ is or whether I am half Westerner and half Asian (I am not I am 100% ‘white’) – I lie. I don’t lie on forms but I don’t think anything of lying to a bank officer if these questions are asked and at least for now ducking the bullet and being ‘outed’. I do not plan on self disclosing regardless of whether or not an account is in ‘US compliance’ (a joke since I am not breaking any laws where I live and work) because I don’t want to be put in the FATCA US Person bucket by my country of residence/countries where I hold accounts until I have no choice.
@kermitzi. Someone posted on another thread that a friend’s Canadian born child opened a small RBC account with no mention of place of birth. Two weeks later she received requests in the mail asking the U.S. questions and giving information on what would happen if she was a U.S. Person.
Perhaps one of the administrators could find that and post it here.
I’ll share my two experiences here. (Born in US of Canadian parents, moved back age 2, dual from day one apparently, lived in the US for five years as an adult, cheerfully tax non-compliant since mid-90s and don’t intend to change that, toying with renunciation but don’t like the cost or the idea of coming off the radar.)
We do regular banking at RBC. Have not heard a word about FATCA as there would be no US indicia. I did open a child’s savings account recently and noticed a US-something on the application screen, but the banker said nothing, possibly since we were an existing account. (If the do ask questions, I’ll move to a credit union.)
I have RRSP investments with RBC Dominion Securities. Not enough to qualify for that level of service but I “inherited” the investment advisor from my parents. The advisor presumably knows about my citizenship (thanks, mom) because he asked me in an e-mail to state this and to provide an SSN. I refused to confirm or deny, and told him that they should not be collecting citizenship information when I only have RRSP accounts, which are not reportable. We’ve had no further communication since then; I’d like to think that he’s not reporting me to CRA without telling me, but has let this drop for the time being. If they push the issue then I don’t think I can successfully like (since he knows); options are to move accounts, try to fool him with a fake CLN, or to forget about it and hope that the bank is only collecting the data for internal purposes and that it won’t pass it along for RRSP accounts.
Frankly I’m not that worried about being reported. What are they going to do? I have no US assets, and it’s not like the IRS can collect money up here. It might make US travel a bit risky, but I don’t do that very often any more, it’s something I could probably live with.
Here is the original comment on that, Blaze and kermitzi. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/06/26/please-provide-in-this-post-questions-big-canadian-banks-will-ask-new-account-holders-on-july-2-2014/comment-page-10/#comment-3348164. Related comments follow this one.
The TD Customer Service page on FATCA says TD
“may request you complete a Tax Form (which may include a W-9, W-8 or a similar form)”.
So TD may be using a foreign country’s legal tax for to have their customers self-certify that they, indeed, are NOT a “US PERSON”. Even to identify to a Canadian Bank that one IS a “US PERSON”, the Canadian branches of the TD Bank (a separate corporation from the TD Bank in the US) SHOULD NOT REQUIRE that a customer put their signature on a legal document FROM A FOREIGN COUNTRY. What the bank wants with this documentation is for THEM (the BANK) to be accurate on their identification of “US PERSONS” – – or is this another way that our banks are being trained/directed to be IRS agents using IRS forms. Disgusting lack of boundries here……..
@Nononymous
In the old days… saying US… blah… blah… was not a big deal in Canada since a majority had the US taint… my elders in the family are from war times when certain things said could get u killed… unless u hold a gun to their head… they ain’t telling u nothing… But mistakes were made in my generation… addresses were changed when one went stateside cause we didn’t think anything of it… but then changed back when one went home… or just sharing the US info with a bank person… who thought these minor errors could become big mistakes
LM,
Disgusting our banks’ term of “MAY REQUEST YOU” — which is terminology likened to that of the IRS, which they are now clearly arms of.
Come right out and tell us what you are going to do – black and white. We do not want continued obfuscation. We want clear direction on your policy on which to base our decision whether we continue our banking relationship with your Canadian bank VS a Canadian credit unions that clearly will state their position on FATCA.
@Calgary411 –
Both hubby and I have renounced. We have a VERY longstanding relationship with our big-5 bank and it is a hassle to change everything. We have not yet been approached about our “US-ness”; I don’t think there is anything in our record showing our birthplaces. However, given the nature of certain financial transactions over the years, it is 99.99% certain that the local people, at least, know about this. We have not yet received anything in the mail asking for more information or a form to be filled out. If they ask for a self-certification on a form devised by the bank, if they have taken the time to be respectful of the fact that they are asking a Canadian living in Canada to provide them with information needed in regard to their current legalities, I will deal with that form; because I have not seen such a form, I can’t say what it will ask for RE personal information, so cannot say what I would or would not provide them in terms of information. But I do have a US birthplace and a CLN and am willing to self-certify that I am not a US Person.
However, if they push an IRS W8 form on me, I will make a HUGE stink (initially, think loud voices in the quiet local bank with questions to the manager and anyone who will listen with words such as “REALLY, THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME TO DO?”) and then as far up the FFI ladder as I have to plus speak to a journalist I know locally (or other) about my Canadian bank demanding that I, a sole-Cdn Citizen – – put my signature on a legal US Tax form/document to attest to my Canadian bank on Canadian soil that I am NOT a US citizen.
That, my dear, is what I will do. Is that clear enough?
@LM
Suggest you demand that banks provide ANY forms or documents in your preferred official language of French.
I was very vocal with my bank manager about FATCA at BMO where I was signatory on my mothers’s accounts, and now executor. I even went to a FATCA info seminar put on by BMO. I have not received anything from BMO regarding my status.
When it comes to when it might be beneficial–and arguably ethical, although it can be debated either way, to lie–here is an example of some coercive behavior the Canadian government is engaging in without help from Uncle Sam or FATCA:
http://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2012/07/30/oas_benefits_denied_immigrants_told_to_produce_residency_proofs.html
Here immigrants to Canada who have long-standing residence in Canada are being denied OAS benefits because they can’t come up with exact proof of their movements in and out of Canada. This despite the fact that there is a clear record of having paid into CPP for most of their adult lives–because they can’t produce old plane tickets documenting brief absences from Canada from decades ago that don’t actually bear on their OAS eligibility. (And, as an aside, no one mentioned in the article seems to have the so-called ‘US taint’.)
One lady quoted in the article says that she cannot lie because of her religion, but it is a situation where surely some will be tempted to lie–and as Canada presumably has freedom of religion, not all will be bound by the religious constraints this lady feels bound by.
If Canada is demanding proof of decades old travel in the OAS situation, who is to say that similar demands when it comes to US personhood aren’t coming? Though I cannot comment on the ethics, at what point does it become impractical to tell the truth?
…and I have not received anything from the bank at which I hold my son’s RDSP and TFSA. I would move those accounts to a credit union but there is not one in Alberta that offers the Registered Disability Savings Plan. I would also raise FURTHER attention to myself in doing so. I refuse to close the RDSP as I believe my son is just as entitled to such an account as any other Canadian who happens to have a disability.
It’s pretty apparent from all the polarized viewpoints that each person on Isaac Brock has their own belief system re. lying vs not lying . . . and that is how it will always be. What I would really like to know, however, is what “legal” consequences one might encounter by signing a bank form that states “I am not a U.S. person”. Eg, could I be extradited to the U.S. to face charges, perhaps for perjury; can the CRA &/or banks freeze my accounts etc.?
Sasha,
Seems those are very wise questions to know the answers to before carrying out the decision / “strategy” of lying to hide US-ness that some people should never have pinned on them in the first place (which I totally understand people having to make!).
See my “why” questions on the other thread we are devoting to our having to defend our decisions to lie to protect ourselves and our families. It’s all bloody insanity.
Tnx Calgary 411
Which thread are you referring to . . . & should I have posted my question elsewhere – eg, Rahab’s renunciation of citizenship?
Sasha there could not be any consequences for signing a bank form stating ‘I am not a US person’
@LM – as just another data point to illustrate what is happening outside of Canada (in SE Asia) many banks here (local banks) are also requiring all of their customers to fill out the US tax declaration forms. Some give it as part of a packet for all new accounts for customers, some give them only after the customer fills out a FATCA questionnaire and is identified as a US Person. No amount of argument is going to work to avoid the forms – when asked WHY the bank officials just say ‘the US made us do it’ full stop. Such is the global reach of FATCA as upsetting as it is.