This week I had a chat with a kind donor to our Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit. She is a Canadian citizen who has lived in our country for more than four decades.
I asked her (as I now ask many) to predict what Canadians will do when the FATCA law identifies them and turns them over to a foreign country.
This Canadian told me how she will respond when her neighborhood bank turns her over to the United States Internal Revenue Service. She said:
“First time visitors to the “Isaac Brock” and “Maple Sandbox” websites are regularly advised to “Read, read, read before you take any action” when you discover that the IRS wants you.
Generally good advice, I would say, except that I would change the channel a bit and say “Read, read, read, and then take NO action“.
I would strongly urge people to read, read, read, and then take the time to live with the injustice, the absurdity, the absolute moral bankruptcy of FATCA before they commit themselves to any course of action.
Live with the feelings of unfairness and discrimination that surround FATCA; let the oppressiveness of the situation really take hold. Then take a deep breath, and another, let the fear subside, and then let the outrage and anger come forth and “Just say NO”.
We all know that the whole premise of FATCA (Citizenship-Based Taxation) is fundamentally wrong, so why do so many of us so readily agree to participate in a system that is “wrong”? Fear, anxiety, expediency, whatever?
When I am faced with a really complex situation that is impossible to figure out, and FATCA would be one of those, I try to pare things down to fundamental principles that let me see things more clearly. Really, in my mind, FATCA is no different from the scenario of the school yard bully.
The Harper Canadian Government should have stood up to the U.S. bully’s threat of sanctions and said “No”. It didn’t.
Canadian banks and financial institutions should have refused to become agents of the IRS. They didn’t.
Our Members of Parliament should have challenged the government to address issues of sovereignty, privacy, and equality of ALL Canadians. By and large, with a few notable exceptions, they didn’t.
So now it’s my turn; it’s my turn to stand up and say “No”. And I will.
I will refuse to fill out any “foreign” tax information forms, I will refuse to give my financial institutions any information on place of birth, and, if necessary, I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.
I will refuse to let the bully play in my yard.
I realize that this is a course of action (or inaction) that might make some people feel uncomfortable. But, speaking personally, I feel much more uncomfortable being forced to do things that I know are wrong, and I know that FATCA is wrong.
It’s just wrong, plain and simple. So I’m not doing it.
I am now, and will remain, willfully non-compliant. End of story.”
when asked i plan on presenting my certificate of CANADIAN citizenship to the requesting bank official. i will happily sign what ever forms they want me to too certifiy that i am not an american. if it means i perjur myself so be it as i am perjuring myself on american forms and not canadian ones. america’s laws do not effect me as a canadian on canadian soil.
i ceased being an american the day i crossed the border into CANADA and began living my life as a CANADIAN.
if they pursue it further i will be using “the animal’s” response and rehanding them my certificate of CANADIAN citizenship.
i have made peace with the fact that i will never travel into the us of a ever again which while am wife and i will miss it only opens up the rest of the world for us to travel to.
i look at it as a break up with a girlfriend…..see ya its been fun while it lasted……and then flashing the one fingered salute…… 🙂
What is so sad is that all of this is SO unnecessary. One has to ask WHY does the US Government insist on this and WHAT is so important that so many lives are being destroyed by this CBT/FATCA/FBAR law and policy and WHY does there not seem to be ANY acknowledgement that this is unacceptable and needs to be changed on the part of this Obama Administration? For me, I have NO desire to give up my US citizenship but am being placed in the absurd and terrible positon that I HAVE TO simply because of the US Government. I truly detest every politician who voted for FATCA with Obama at the top of the list, and I have no respect for US State, US Dept of Justice or the US Treasury/IRS. I am one of millions of US expats that completely resent the US action – not that they care, but they have turned otherwise patriotic Americans overseas into their worst spokespersons…..
I now have a CLN and will be taking the oath of allegiance to my new country in a ceremony tomorrow. Yay! I will not become “compliant”–ever. I do not need to travel to the US and probably wouldn’t anyway, at least not until the IRS and the rest of it falls apart from its own corruption and will have better things to do than capture us average Joes. I have read articles stating that a federal income tax is technically illegal and that a man who once challenged the IRS to prove its right to levy an income tax never got an answer from them. I do not have a single good wish for the hopelessly corrupt IRS, and some of the bad ones I have would be unprintable. Cheers!
@Silver birch, if you Google “Certificate of Loss of Nationality”, one of the first entries that comes up has images, and the first one of those is an image of a CLN from the U.S.
Steve,
You have summarized so well:
Why should any of us have to make these decisions for US law overriding the laws of our own countries? By the above comments, you can see that there are many, many who will go underground to avoid all of this. Among other reasons, what are people to do who cannot afford the US tax lawyers and US tax accountants and cannot deal with the complexity of another country’s (US) tax requirements? Who the damn hell is going to help them? We have to have a level playing field for any of this to make sense. That, of course, is residence-based taxation. We are all being criminalized for what? Living our lives, raising our families, working and paying taxes for the benefits we receive and contributing to our communities in responsible ways in the countries of OUR CHOICE.
U.S. citizenship-based taxation will NEVER be fair. The U.S. can continue to pound a square peg into a round hole and show they are exceptional and they shall punish all slaves who disobey the master. This could all easily be changed and the U.S. could continue to go after their residents who offshore their untaxed monies. We have full evidence of the immorality of the Legislative, the Senate, the Executive branches of the USA. What will the Judicial branch decide about constitutionality with the US litigation that is moving forward?
What a dog’s breakfast! What absurdity!
@steve, I am with you! I’ll never understand why the U.S. is determined to enforce this, to collect $ from a hundred or so tax evaders, only to pi$$ off MILLIONS of people who were born in that country (or married to one) and making them feel betrayed, ripped off, desperate to shed US citizenship and “indicia”, and furious that they have to. SHAME!
My DH and I (American-born-and-raised) don’t want to lose our connections with our extended family across the border. My elderly mother can’t travel anymore, and I try to see her yearly; we also attend weddings and family events when we can, even though they happen to live in the same country with leaders who have enacted such infuriating legislation. That is why we pin such high hopes on the Supreme Court challenge here in Canada, where we are citizens.
Until then, we try to lay low and under the radar. Thus far, we wouldn’t owe any taxes any ways, and yet they’ve made the associated paperwork so complex and expensive EVERY YEAR to have it done (as calgary411 constantly reminds us, even when no taxes are owed) that we have no incentive to “out” ourselves and join the program. Call us lawbreakers, but getting our Canadian-born kids through university comes first.
That said, I’ll never understand why the big Canadian banks colluded with Harper’s gov’t with the IGA, so they can extract damning info from so many faithful patrons in order to turn us over to America’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. No thank you. Here we are all commending this brave, plucky woman who prompted this thread. I too don’t blame her for lying. She deserves to be treated like every other Canadian citizen is treated. She has not committed any crime. Obviously, if she ever has to go to court, she should follow what her legal counsel advises, and we all know that their are some things that are admitted and some things that aren’t. This is why very often, the people accused don’t even take the stand! Thankfully, because Gwen and Ginny are taking the stand, the rest of us probably won’t ever have to! Gwen and Ginny, you are true heroes!
From the post above: “I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.”
How many Harpers, Obamas, and Tom Hunters will gleefully quote this to “prove” that the oppressed, as moral delinquents, don’t deserve any consideration?
Yes, in hard circumstances truth is elusive. That doesn’t make it wise to hand the entrenched oppressor tailor-made negative publicity that sells easily.
@calgary411 and @Jan, you have said it so well. I’m still trying to understand why this mess doesn’t get more attention in the U.S. I suppose it’s due to a combination of ignorance, “it doesn’t affect me”, and “we have more important things to worry about.” It baffles me even more that our current Canadian government continues to cooperate with U.S. CBT and its negative impact on Canadians and the Canadian economy.
The ADCS/ADSC lawsuit is very important to pursue, and I have contributed financially to that. I think it would also help if we all communicated our objections regularly to the Prime Minister, the Finance Minister, and the U.S. Ambassador to Canada. Something short like this might be useful:
How much longer will it take for the United States to recognize that its Citizenship-Based Taxation is out of step with the rest of the civilized world, is poaching revenue from the economies of other countries, and is terrorizing citizens and long-time residents of other countries? Why does our Canadian government continue to cooperate with this intolerable situation?
Perhaps a repeated flood of messages like that might keep it higher in their awareness.
.
“So now it’s my turn; it’s my turn to stand up and say “No”. And I will.
I will refuse to fill out any “foreign” tax information forms, I will refuse to give my financial institutions any information on place of birth, and, if necessary, I will lie with an absolutely clear conscience.
I will refuse to let the bully play in my yard.”
Makes a great sound-byte, but how would anyone refusing to provide information to the bank and the IRS then be given the opportunity to lie “if necessary”?
One more thing: the majority of the truly rich and devious tax evaders–the supposed target of FATCA–are going to lie through their teeth and find other schemes by which to hide their wealth (if they maintain U.S. citizenship/residency) anyways. Who are we kidding? That’s why FATCA won’t catch very many of them.
FATCA is a horrible new game. Our Canadian banks are busy ferreting out the financial data of any account with U.S. indicia to hand over to a government that treats us ALL like tax evaders, to show “compliance” with the IGA (to save their butts). And we’re supposed to play along?
Why? We can’t win! It’s like being forced to keep betting your money every year on a “game” that you hate and that you are GUARANTEED to lose your money on; the only question is HOW MUCH the ruthless casino will soak you for, like an automatic $10,000 penalty if a form is missing. No one else in Canada has to play this game, and people with a U.S. birthplace (or indicia) shouldn’t be forced to play it either. 🙁
@mom times 4 Love this- “I do not have a single good wish for the hopelessly corrupt IRS, and some of the bad ones I have would be unprintable.” LOL! 🙂
Enjoy getting your freedom papers tomorrow! Hope it all goes smoothly, and that you leave in good spirits! Cheers!
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The first CLN image that comes up when I google “Certificate of Loss of Nationality” is my own.
@Silver birch @Petros
Here is the printable CLN form as found on the US government’s website:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81609.pdf
@Bubblebustin
‘Makes a great sound-byte, but how would anyone refusing to provide information to the bank and the IRS then be given the opportunity to lie “if necessary”?’
The opportunity exists, at least in Canada AFAIK: someone would simply present ID not showing a birthplace: for example a Canadian provincial driver’s license and a Canadian citizenship card. In other countries where I gather the banks are more closing accounts rather than turning the account info over, it may be hard to deal with banks at all unless you can show proof of birthplace.
As to whether it is ethical to lie, I’m of the viewpoint that it was perfectly ethical to lie to save the lives (or at least extent them a bit) of Anne Frank and her family. Whether we have reached that point with FATCA yet is a decision each person must make for themselves.
However, I’ve made a specific point here several times that I feel bears repeating: I feel it is perfectly fine for a Canadian citizen to call themselves a Canadian and a Canadian only if they have never claimed US (or 3rd country) citizenship since the last time they entered Canada or since they became a Canadian citizen. I take this position not because I am condoning lying–I neither condone nor denounce lying in this context. Rather I take this position because I feel, fundamentally, that it is not a lie–it is the truth. US law simply doesn’t apply in Canada so if someone is a US citizen/person only in the context of US law, it isn’t lying to ignore that on Canadian soil.
@bubblebustin @Dash1729
“The opportunity exists, at least in Canada AFAIK: someone would simply present ID not showing a birthplace: for example a Canadian provincial driver’s license and a Canadian citizenship card.”
Of course this assumes that the account doesn’t already have some sort of US indicia–such as ID already on file showing a US birthplace, etc. If it does, it might be necessary to move to a new bank that one keeps clean of US “indicia”.
Oops, Dash1729, you neglected to send this one from your other handle. Confused?
@Bubblebustin
I assume you are referring to the fact that the avatar shows up on some of my posts but not others.
For some reason the avatar shows up when I post from home but not when I post from work. I have no idea why. It is my WordPress avatar and I’m logged into the salient WordPress account BOTH at work and at home so it is strange. To make it even more confusing, the WordPress avatar appears on my posts on the ADCS blog even when I post from work. Perhaps it has something to do with using a different browser in the two locations (?)
Anyways this isn’t all that interesting. I’m more interested in the subject matter at hand. Do you have anything to add to that discussion at this time?
Before Christmas, my husband and I were dealing with a financial planner through the bank. She mentioned the TFSA to me. However, I told her that I wasn’t interested in opening a TFSA. She of course wanted to know why. I told her that I had been born in the US, but had taken Canadian citizenship in the 90’s. I wasn’t sure about my status. I didn’t have a S.I.N # or US passport. I have only travelled twice to the US since becoming a citizen in 1993 and 1998. She told me that my account didn’t not have any US indica attached to it. I have spoken to her once since. Her position was that I have no US indica attached to me. She seem to think that they would only be asking clients who had indica or were opening new accounts going forward. She isn’t adding it to my profile. If the IRS starts demanding the banks start sending letters to old and new clients alike of course I would have to deal with it. I don’t do RRSP anymore because she said that my husband should be doing them all as I work part – time and he would have a better return at tax time. She tried to change the RESP from my name to my husband’s, but wasn’t able too. We have a child who is still using it. I really believe that I have relinquished and will try to make a case for it if I have too.
What you may need to do besides nothing is, close any bank accounts you have here in U.S.A. so IRS cannot seize them to pay the taxes you “owe”.
@Dash1729
Most of us aren’t in the habit of writing posts to ourselves, but to each his own.
At least we can agree that the truth is not a lie!
@Bubblebustin
“Most of us aren’t in the habit of writing posts to ourselves, but to each his own.”
I was, in addition to responding to you, making a slight correction to my earlier response–hence I was referencing my own response in addition to your post. Sorry if this was confusing.
@ Tom: That’s already something that the banks themselves have done in the US. I had an account for years with one particular large bank, but when I moved to Canada in 2010 I opened a PO Box in the states to continue to receive mail there.
Thanks to the so-called “Patriot Act” this bank informed me that a physical residence address (no PO Box) is required to open _or maintain_ a bank account in the US. Since I don’t have one, I had to close my account back in December.
@Dash Many of us have no difficulty saying we are not a U.S. Person. However, if the bank asks “Were you born in the United States?” it’s a game changer.
Until June, Canadian banks could not do that for bank accounts under Canadian privacy, Human a Rights and banking laws. The FATCA enabling Act overrides all of that, which is the reason for the lawsuit.
Some banks appear to be asking that question. TD says on their website they will require a CLN.
Yet Canada Revenue Agency has been clear that banks are not required to ask for place of birth, that a birth certificate that does not show
United States is not an unambiguous U.S. place of birth (I.e. New York New York without USA is not an unambiguous place of birth) and that a “reasonable explanation” of why someone does not have a CLN is acceptable.
Although the banks and CBA went screaming to the Canadian government, they are refusing to accept the massive wiggle room the government handed them on a civil platter.
Likewise, credit unions could have taken the local client base route, but many chose not to.
I personally will have difficulty lying if and when TD or my credit union ask if I was born in the U.S., but I understand why others may have no qualms about doing that considering how the IRS, our long-time banks and our own government are treating us as criminals or pariahs.
Just a thought, since many of us are comfortable with lying to Canadian financial institutions to make FATCA go away. If your bank asks for proof of your place of birth and it happens to be in the US could you not say that one of your parents was on diplomatic or military assignment, and therefore you did not acquire citizenship at birth?
Also it looks like the CLN would be dead easy to forge. Wouldn’t want to cross the US border with one, but if it makes a bank happy, that’s another matter.