Updated November 3, 2014 – Readers are strongly encouraged to read the comments as well. One must remember that Streamlined and OVDP are programs which have been invented by the IRS. They are not found in the Internal Revenue Code. Consequently this post should be read in the context of the following comment to this post:
Commentary on the ‘clarifying rules’:
“……..FAQs are all the rage these days with the IRS, as the government does not take the time or spend the resources to follow the Administrative Procedures Act or similar requirements which are required in order to issue binding rules and regulations. See a previous post regarding these requirements, specifically regarding those who renounce U.S. citizenship or abandon LPR status and have not complied with IRS Notice 2009-85. See,Does IRS Notice 2009-85 regarding expatriation have the “force of law”? Posted on April 14, 2014
Hence, these SFCP are not legally binding on the IRS and they can pick cases as they choose for audit, review and penalty assessment in any manner they think is consistent with the law. Sometimes they do it in a manner that is not consistent with the law.”………….
Americans abroad are getting special attention from the IRS
The evolution of "Streamlined Compliance" and #Americansabroad – Oct. 2014 edition http://t.co/cW3oc7LxLy – Bad for USA, bad for #Expats
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) October 13, 2014
During the last week the IRS has been paying special attention to Americans abroad. First we have the new bulletin which relieves Canadians of the need to file the Form 8891 in order to “legitimize” their RRSPs and RRIFs. This was the subject of considerable discussion at the Isaac Brock Society. As noted in a insightful post by Roy Berg, many Canadians will NOT be eligible for the “8891 Relief”. The “effective date” of the RRSP announcement is December 31, 2014. Some Canadians had been using the “Streamlined Compliance” program to fix the “problem of having used an RRSP for retirement planning in Canada” (talk about “tax evasion”). Brave Canadians had “come clean” about their RRSPs in OVDI or either Streamlined Compliance 1 (September 1, 2012 – July 1, 2014) or Streamlined Compliance 2 (July 1, 2014 and continuing). Streamlined 2 appeared to be a “good faith” attempt by the IRS to relieve Americans abroad from penalties on information returns that they didn’t know they had to file. This appeared to be a “step forward” by the IRS. It even appeared to be an attempt to reverse some of the “ill will” generated by “IRS Penalty Abuse” in OVDI and OVDP. As Robert Wood notes, the relationship between the IRS and Canadians is NOT good. It looks like the relationship is about to go from bad to worse. For new readers, it’s important to note that the “clarifications” announced by the IRS in October of 2012, must be understood in the context of the evolution of the so called “IRS Amnesty” programs that began in 2009. As a reminder to all, here is the progression and evolution of these programs:
2009 – The Reign of Terror Begins:
Obama, Geithner and Shulman equate the offshore accounts of Americans abroad with the offshore accounts of Homeland tax cheats. The “reign of terror” begins.
The attack on #Offshore accounts held by #Americansabroad begins http://t.co/7EotsE0tL7 – #FATCA and the #FBAR Fundraiser
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) June 18, 2014
2009 – IRS creates the OVDP program of 2009. Half way through the program, they engaged in the “bait and switch”. Tax lawyers had believed that people could enter program and argue “reasonable cause”. IRS “shuts” down “reasonable cause arguments. Also, IRS discovers PFICs giving them a new vehicle to terrorize Americans abroad.
2010 – In March of 2010 Mr. Obama signs FATCA legislation in law. The stage is set for “FATCA Hunt” – the hunt for Americans abroad.
2011 – IRS remakes OVDP as OVDI making it clear there is no “agent discretion” in calculating penalties without an “opt out”.
Tax lawyers, accountants and media encourage innocent Americans abroad to enter OVDP.
OVDI ends in September 2011.
December 2011 – IRS release the infamous December 2011 FS. For the first time since 2009, the IRS notes that “reasonable cause” arguments are available. A Christmas present from the IRS that was ignored by the “cross border professionals”. At this point, it was difficult to know what to do. Americans abroad had a compliance problem and not a tax problem.
January 2012 – IRS brings back the OVDP. Basically the same as the 2011 OVDP with higher penalties (25% to 27.5%). Isaac Brock Society writes press release warning Americans abroad to stay away from this program. “Just Me” write the OVDI Classic: “OVDI Drudgery for Minnows“. In January of 2012, desperate Americans abroad wrote about how “their lives had been stoled from them by the IRS“.
September 2012 – IRS introduces the “Streamlined Compliance” program for ONLY Americans abroad. People were and continue to be wary of the program.
June 2014 – IRS introduces modifications to both Streamlined Compliance and OVDP. The bottom line appears to the that penalties but not tax will be waived.
“Not Willful” – A Necessary Condition To Use Streamlined
A “necessary condition” to use the June 2014 “Streamlined Compliance” is that the failure to file the U.S. tax and information returns was “not willful”. The IRS states that:
Taxpayers must certify that conduct was not willful. Taxpayers using either the Streamlined Foreign Offshore Procedures or the Streamlined Domestic Offshore Procedures, will be required to certify, in accordance with the specific instructions set forth below, that the failure to report all income, pay all tax and submit all required information returns, including FBARs (FinCEN Form 114, previously Form TD F 90-22,1) was due to non-willful conduct.
irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Streamlined-Filing-Compliance-Procedures
The Practitioner view of “non-willful” – The issue of what constitutes “non-willful” conduct has been given much considerations by practitioners. A recent article by Charles Rettig was referenced here. There is a great deal of “practitioner commentary”on the meaning of “non-willful”. Although well intended, the effect has been to create anxiety and uncertainty. One would think that “non-willful” would simply mean conduct that does NOT meet the “standard of “willful”.
The IRS view of “non-willful” – University of San Diego International Tax Conference – If it’s not “willful” then it’s “non-willful”
No Need to Provide a Negative Definition for Fraud – says Daniel Price, Attorney for IRS: as Reported by… http://t.co/kvG9BcBeqE
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) November 3, 2014
In addition the IRS spokesperson:
October 2014 – On October 10, 2014 – as reported by Jack Townsend and others – the IRS released some new “clarifying” information for International Taxpayers. What follows is some “initial commentary”.
The commentary begins …
The IRS has revised a limited-amnesty program (Streamlined) for people with offshore accounts http://t.co/09zzbaG74X via @WSJpersfinance
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) October 13, 2014
Laura Saunders reports on the “clarifications” that the IRS has made to the Streamlined Compliance program which was introduced on June 18, 2014.
Ms. Saunders reports on “clarifications” that affect both U.S. residents and Americans abroad. The article includes:
Experts say the clarifications contain good news and bad news for U.S. taxpayers concerning the streamlined program. “The clarity is good, but some people who think they don’t deserve harsh treatment will wind up on the wrong side of the fence the IRS has erected,” says Phil Hodgen, an international tax lawyer in Pasadena, Calif.
The IRS issued the guidance in question-and-answer format. Seven new questions are for U.S. residents and clarify what assets are and aren’t subject to the 5% penalty. For example, the penalty doesn’t apply to assets, such as a bank account, for which the taxpayer had “signature authority” but not beneficial ownership—that is, the right to use the assets.
One new question applies to U.S. taxpayers residing outside the U.S. and clarifies details of residency regarding the program. In effect, says Stow Lovejoy, a lawyer with Kostelanetz & Fink in New York, it holds that many Canadian “snowbirds” who regularly spend several months a year in the U.S. and are delinquent U.S. taxpayers—even if they didn’t know it—won’t qualify for a zero penalty.*
Another clarification raises the bar for people who hope to avoid a penalty in the streamlined program. U.S. taxpayers who don’t owe taxes but haven’t filed paperwork will have to explain why they didn’t, and the IRS will have to accept the excuse, in order to escape a penalty.
Although the IRS’s streamlined program offers a welcome option for some people, there are other ways to cope with past noncompliance. Mr. Hodgen and others say that many taxpayers with smaller accounts—say, under $500,000—who weren’t aware of their noncompliance may be able address it simply by amending past tax returns and complying going forward.
The clarification of most interest to Americans abroad is:
Another clarification raises the bar for people who hope to avoid a penalty in the streamlined program. U.S. taxpayers who don’t owe taxes but haven’t filed paperwork will have to explain why they didn’t, and the IRS will have to accept the excuse, in order to escape a penalty.
So, what exactly does this mean?
Let’s begin with “people talk”. Phil Hodgen, (writing as a “Jello Shot” from “rarified air”) describes it this way:
The IRS seems incapable of simple clarity. Just this week they yet again updated their idea of “here’s an easy, simple, and safe way to fix things” procedures. They call it the “Streamlined Procedures”. This week’s update made the rules more complicated and the requirements subtly treacherous.
Hint: you are offered relief from tax penalties that could bankrupt an ordinary person. In order to get that relief, you have to give the IRS a “this is why I should not have any penalties” essay. They call it a “reasonable cause” statement.
The IRS can accept or reject what you say in that statement. If the IRS likes what you wrote, it’s all rainbows and unicorns. No penalties for you.
But if the IRS woke up on the wrong side of the bureaucratic bed that morning, or is cranky because of a fight with Mrs. IRS before coming into work that morning, or is exceedingly diligent in following checklists, or is exceedingly slack and just wants to go to lunch, then your application for penalty relief can be rejected.
Just like the cop shows on TV. “What you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.” That’s the downside of that “reasonable cause” statement the IRS wants you to submit. It will be Exhibit A in the government’s program to claim that you should pay penalties because you were (in its eyes) unreasonable.
Canadian Snowbirds: Speaking of making the “rules more complicated and the requirements subtly treacherous”.
News for #Cdnsnowbirds http://t.co/QciuwuTeoz Good News: You are NOT eligible for Streamlined Bad News: You are NOT eligible for streamlined
— US Taxation Abroad (@TaxationAbroad) October 27, 2014
The more complicated the rules, the more likely the rules will generate “unintended consequences”. “Canadian Snowbirds” (spending more than 35 days per year in the United States) are not eligible for Streamlined compliance. (I can’t imagine a Snowbird even considering coming into U.S. tax compliance, but anyway …) In a nutshell the reason Canadian Snowbirds cannot use “Streamlined” is because:
1. Spending more than 35 days per year in the U.S. makes them ineligible for Non-Resident Streamlined Compliance; and
2. Note having filed U.S. tax returns makes them ineligible for Domestic Streamlined compliance.
*Bubblebustin comments that:
The IRS is lowering the hammer on so called snowbirds, but a snowbird remains a snowbird regardless of how long he’s been in the US unless he neglects to file in a timely fashion both the closer connection” form 8840, or failing that, the “tie-breaker” election under the tax treaty. Snowbirds who are meeting the conditions of the substantial presence test are getting penalized for not knowing about the forms in time! This hardly seems fair for the snowbird that the difference between a taxpayer and a snowbird is knowing about a piece of paper, when non-resident US person’s are rightfully getting a pass on penalties for not knowing about their tax filing obligations.
What this tells me is that the IRS is putting a lot of emphasis on residency. This is terrible for snowbirds who get caught in this, knowing that The CRA under the same circumstances would not penalize a Canadian resident in this fashion if they made a good faith effort to be tax compliant with offshore accounts.
Now for the “IRS Talk” – Clarifying Information In The Language Of The IRS
Delinquent Information Returns (were dealt with under the old OVDP FAQ 18) whether or not tax is owed
The information on the IRS website (as of today October 12, 2014 is):
irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Delinquent-International-Information-Return-Submission-Procedures-Frequently-Asked-Questions-and-Answers
Delinquent International Information Return Submission Procedures Frequently Asked Questions and Answers
Effective On or After July 1, 2014
Q1. Are the Delinquent International Information Return Submission Procedures announced on June 18, 2014 different from the procedures described in 2012 OVDP FAQ 18 (in effect prior to July 1, 2014)?
Yes. The IRS eliminated 2012 OVDP FAQ 18, which gave automatic penalty relief, but was only available to taxpayers who were fully tax compliant. The Delinquent International Information Return Submission Procedures clarify how taxpayers may file delinquent international information returns in cases where there was reasonable cause for the delinquency. Taxpayers who have unreported income or unpaid tax are not precluded from filing delinquent international information returns. Unlike the procedures described in OVDP FAQ 18, penalties may be imposed under the Delinquent International Information Return Submission Procedures if the Service does not accept the explanation of reasonable cause. The longstanding authorities regarding what constitutes reasonable cause continue to apply, and existing procedures concerning establishing reasonable cause, including requirements to provide a statement of facts made under the penalties of perjury, continue to apply. See, for example, Treas. Reg. § 1.6038-2(k)(3), Treas. Reg. § 1.6038A-4(b), and Treas. Reg. § 301.6679-1(a)(3).
Delinquent “INTERNATIONAL information returns (whether or not tax is owing) will NOT be subject to penalties if the IRS determines they meet the “reasonable cause” test. Examples of “International Information Returns” include: Form 3520, 5471, 8938, etc. An interesting discussion of the principles of “reasonable cause” is here.
FBAR Delinquency for those who have filed their tax returns and are otherwise tax compliant
So far this post has focused on those who enter the Streamlined Compliance program. What about those who do NOT owe tax, have been filing their U.S. tax returns, but have not filed their FBARs? In other words, they have done their best to comply with U.S. tax laws but didn’t know about the FBAR requirement. There is a “special procedure” for them.
Delinquent FBARs (Were dealt with under the old OVDP FAQ 17) where no tax is owed
This situation is summarized by Stephen J. Dunn in a recent Forbes article as follows (I do recommend the complete article):
“Delinquent FBAR Submission Procedures,” published by the IRS on June 18, 2014, provides that taxpayers who do not need the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Procedures (“OVDP”), or the new Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures, to file delinquent or amended income tax returns to report and pay additional tax, but who:
1. have not filed a required FBAR,
2. are not under civil audit or criminal investigation by the IRS, and
3. have not already been contacted by the IRS concerning delinquent FBARs,
should file their delinquent FBARs according to the electronic FBAR filing procedures, including a statement of why the FBARs are filed late. There is a dropdown box of explanations for late filing on the FBAR form; the most likely explanation is, “I did not know I had to file.”
Delinquent FBAR Submission Procedures continues, “The IRS will not impose a penalty for the failure to file the delinquent FBARs if you properly reported on your U.S. tax returns, and paid all tax on, the income from the foreign accounts reported on the delinquent FBARs and you have not been previously contacted regarding an income tax examination or a request for the delinquent returns for the years for which the delinquent FBARs are submitted.”
Conclusion: Those who use the Streamlined program must still certify that their omissions were “not willful”. In addition they may have to meet the “reasonable cause” standard to not be assessed penalties for failure to file information returns. To put the question another way:
Must the “non-willfulness” that is the pre-requisite for “Streamlined Compliance” also meet the standards of “reasonable cause”? In other words, must the “non-willfulness” be reasonable? Presumably this becomes an issue only in the event of an audit.
Speaking of audits, the IRS advises that (irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Streamlined-Filing-Compliance-Procedures):
Returns submitted under either the Streamlined Foreign Offshore Procedures or the Streamlined Domestic Offshore Procedures will not be subject to IRS audit automatically, but they may be selected for audit under the existing audit selection processes applicable to any U. S. tax return and may also be subject to verification procedures in that the accuracy and completeness of submissions may be checked against information received from banks, financial advisers, and other sources
What are chances of an audit?
With the high standards required for “Streamlined Compliance”, the question becomes:
What exactly is the benefit of specifically using the “Streamlined Program” to fix past compliance problems, when as Laura Saunders notes:
Mr. Hodgen and others say that many taxpayers with smaller accounts—say, under $500,000—who weren’t aware of their noncompliance may be able address it simply by amending past tax returns and complying going forward.
Writing from “rarified air” Mr. Hodgen notes that if you enter the Streamlined Compliance program:
You are giving the government the club with which they can choose to beat you. Is it any wonder that people are . . . wary?
I agree with Mr. Hodgen. With the “threat of penalties” clearly on the table, Streamlined Compliance will be a “hard sell”. Pity those poor Americans abroad. Many of them desperately want to come into U.S. tax compliance. It’s just that the IRS doesn’t make it easy for them.
Prediction: One way or the other Americans abroad will be relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The most brave and most “moneyed” will renounce at the Consulates and get the CLN. The rest will simply simply vanish – they will opt for the “Do it yourself relinquishment”. Based on the October 2014 IRS “clarifications” to Streamlined 2, fewer and fewer Americans abroad will bother to attempt U.S tax compliance.
The Tragedy: The United States is “burning bridges” with Americans abroad. It’s clear that the Obama administration doesn’t care. What the administration doesn’t grasp is that Americans abroad have traditionally been “unofficial ambassadors” for America abroad. They have been patriotic. They have been loyal. They have been “the first line of defense in minimizing resentment of America”. Americans abroad, because they are generally likeable, are able to make American a “likable nation”. Americans abroad have been effective in diffusing the growing hatred and resentment of America.
On the issue of the growing hatred and resentment of America, see:
RT "Who ever thought I’d be fighting for my financial life and be consumed by a hatred I never thought possible." http://t.co/AhpKP9WjdT
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) November 3, 2014
In Cook v. Tait, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that that taxation of Americans abroad was justified because:
“that (U.S.) government by its very nature benefits the citizen and his property wherever found”
Actually, it’s the opposite. The U.S. Government does NOT benefit its citizens abroad. In fact, renunciations of U.S. citizenship are soaring as Americans abroad take steps to defend themselves from the Obama administration.
Although the U.S. government does NOT benefit its citizens abroad, it’s certainly true that:
“U.S. citizens abroad, by their very nature, benefit the United States wherever they may be found.”
Perhaps Americans abroad should “tax the U.S. government”!
Yet, the Obama administration treats them this way. As Forrest Gump would say:
“Stupid is as Stupid Does.”
Note the results from the poll referenced in this tweet:
Do you feel that you must renounce U.S. citizenship to protect yourself from the U.S. government? http://t.co/WceoQeb5qp
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) October 13, 2014
I am an American citizen born overseas. I have never lived in the US. I am 69 years of age, and, for the first time ever, I fear I may be hounded as a consequence of this onerous, overkill law. Any one else out there with the same status as me? i.e. US Citizen Born Abroad, never having lived in the US, and carries a non-US passport AND a US passport.
@terry. There are hundreds of thousands like you. Please join our community and fight for Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad.
@terry, your “OMG” moment! As JC says there are that many who do not know what Uncle Sam wants from them. Thanks for sharing this, and join the Brock community.
It seems financial survival for some of us may depend on making our story convincing enough to some faceless functionary at an IRS desk. Has he had a bad weekend? Does he have a quota to fill? Is that precarious or what??
Even minimal penalties would kill our little business . . . and who hires 68 year olds?
for those having been born overseas, you likely have no “US indicia” to any bank–no US birthplace upon any document, no US addresses, no US phone numbers. Hence FATCA cannot catch you.
(of course there are the US self-filing requirements, but the FATCA gotchya can’t getchya.
@Terry.
Lose the US passport. Be exclusively whatever (non-US nationality) you are going forward. That US passport can only cause you problems.
@Terry
Even though you may not live in Canada, please visit the ADCS website and consider making a donation.
Any blow struck against FATCA in Canada could have a worldwide effect. Please join the fight.
Snowbirds will be penalized for not knowing to file a piece of paper.
I think the snowbird issue highlights something important. The IRS wants to punish a bunch of people to get revenue based on informational fillings. It’s purely about money though they will crow about it being all about bringing people into compliance. I came into compliance via OVDP. They took a bunch of my money. The sale was that coming into compliance later would cost more. Well that was rubbish. We could have gotten a much better deal later via streamlined. I think the snowbird issue will go the same way. There could be much better deals just around the corner if people wait. Why should somebody in streamlined pay 5% of their tax treaty protected pensions for not filling and FBAR etc? As soon as it gets to the point were somebody will take them to court they will fold.
Coming into compliance means a whole bunch of pain in complying and then later when they put out a better deal it will burn you up inside.
I’ll never trust these people again.
@Neill
The are two problems:
1. Coming into compliance
2. Living in compliance
The second problem is worse than the first.
Snowbirds need to be warned. The solution is simple. Stay out of the U.S.
thanksbrock –
Welcome to the pratey. Keep on truckin. So nice to see a cindered spirit like you spitting sparks. More fun. Less boredom.
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society | The Raoul Weil Chronicles: Taxes, evasion, extradition and extradition for tax evasion in an #FBAR World
Commentary on the ‘clarifying rules’:
http://tax-expatriation.com/2014/10/14/irs-releases-clarifying-rules-for-u-s-citizens-living-outside-the-u-s-re-streamlined-filing-guidance/
“……..FAQs are all the rage these days with the IRS, as the government does not take the time or spend the resources to follow the Administrative Procedures Act or similar requirements which are required in order to issue binding rules and regulations. See a previous post regarding these requirements, specifically regarding those who renounce U.S. citizenship or abandon LPR status and have not complied with IRS Notice 2009-85. See,Does IRS Notice 2009-85 regarding expatriation have the “force of law”? Posted on April 14, 2014
Hence, these SFCP are not legally binding on the IRS and they can pick cases as they choose for audit, review and penalty assessment in any manner they think is consistent with the law. Sometimes they do it in a manner that is not consistent with the law.”………….
@terry,
agree with maz57. You are lucky in that you will have a foreign birthplace listed on that foreign passport. Cannot know what else is involved from the info you have given. Please read up, ask questions. It helps to deal with the fear.,
Pingback: A wealth management company for physicans asks: Are you a U.S. person? | Citizenship Counselling For U.S. Citizens in Canada and Abroad
So, you want to go Streamline, enter a lifetime of IRS compliance, and you “need to certify” that there has never been any WILLFUL BLINDNESS” in you — not even a trace.
Since we have radio, TV, print media in Canada, how would you ever “prove” this blindness if the IRS questioned you on this?
“How does a taxpayer actually provide “specific reasons” in his certification confirming that he did not know of the FBAR filing requirements? The ability to prove something that simply did not exist is difficult, at best. Will the government discount statements by the taxpayer attempting to disprove knowledge as self-serving unless accompanied by objective supporting evidence? What objective evidence might exist to appropriately demonstrate a lack of personal knowledge by the taxpayer about their foreign reporting requirements?”
http://federaltaxcrimes.blogspot.ca/2014/10/chuck-rettig-article-on-certification.html
Pingback: To fly to the USA or not to fly to the USA – the question for Canadian #Snowbirds | US Taxation Abroad
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2014/10/27/2674/
The IRS attempts to corral all snowbirds into the pen. All the world is to be deemed UStaxablepersons by hook or by US Treasury and IRS CROOKs.
As noted by Jack Townsend http://federaltaxcrimes.blogspot.ca/2014/11/irs-and-practitioner-comments-on.html
See Amanda Athanasiou, IRS Addresses Questions About OVDP and Streamlined Filing, 2014 TNT 212-7 (11/3/14)
Only available to Tax Notes Today subscribers, or for those with access to databases that include this source – usually in academic libraries.
Ironic that Streamlined was supposed to be used by ordinary people – and the SFOP version is supposed to be for those living outside the US, but none of those types of ordinary people would either have access to Tax Notes, or to the venue where the IRS answered questions – “…IRS representative and practitioners at the October 30 at the University of San Diego School of Law-Procopio International Tax Law Institute annual conference”.
So, no crucial information for you ordinary people living ordinary lives outside the US.
The IRS promised to do a better job of informing taxpayers. Yet, for those it claims as US taxable persons living outside the US, crucial information is only shared with expensive specialty tax lawyers attending expensive specialty conferences in the US.
What about that IRS BS about the ‘Taxpayer Bill of Rights’?
ex.
“The Right to Be Informed
Taxpayers have the right to know what they need to do to comply with the tax laws. They are entitled to clear explanations of the laws and IRS procedures in all tax forms, instructions, publications, notices, and correspondence. They have the right to be informed of IRS decisions about their tax accounts and to receive clear explanations of the outcomes.”
http://www.taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/about-tas/taxpayer-rights#rights
There has been a lot of heated discussion on Brock whether it is unethical to lie to your bank about your place of birth because this would send a bad message to your children etc.
I don’t want to get into that discussion again, but what about lying on the U.S. IRS Streamlined form which requires that they certify that were not “willful” when they were IRS non-compliant.
—The streamlined procedures clearly define the term for “non-willful conduct” as conduct that is “due to negligence, inadvertence, or mistake or conduct that is the result of a good faith misunderstanding of the requirements of the law.”—
What if they really knew from the media that they were supposed to be IRS compliant, but just refused to comply until they figured that they would be caught. If they lie on the “willful” statement is that bad? Will they go to hell? Will their children respect them? A lie is a lie.
You say “A lie is a lie”. From this I infer that you mean that anytime somebody utters a false statement to somebody else knowing that it is false then this constitutes a lie. If lying is wrong, the reason must be rooted in some “moral basis”. Does it always violate a moral precept if one intentionally utters a false statement? Is it immoral to deny that you have an immutable characteristic (like place of birth) when a government is hunting for people with that “immutable characteristic”?
I just googled “Why is it wrong to lie?”
The following link came up:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/02/08/when_is_lying_good.html
The title of the Article is “When is lying good?”
I tweeted the article and added a bit to the tweet.
The previous threads were largely discussing whether failing to identify your “USness” to a Canadian bank was a lie. Leaving aside whether “FATCA Inquisitions” qualify as a terrorism (which they arguably do), many people simply are not sure whether they are a U.S. person. There are many people who believe that they are NOT U.S. persons when they may be. There are people who believe they are U.S. persons when they are not.
Here are your logical possibilities:
Believe You Have “USNess” Do Have “USNess”
Yes Yes
No Yes
Yes No
No No
Think of it. The only people safe outside the of the United States who are safe are those who neither have “USNess” and don’t believe they have “USNess”.
I expect that soon the U.S. will create a new, universal form for Foreign banks to use for people to certify their “USness”.
It will be called the:
Foreign Assistance to Indentify-UsNess Report” or the “FAIR Form” as an acronym.
“FAIR Form – Making FATCA A Comfortable Experience At A Branch Near You”.
Finally you ask:
What do you think?
Finally, (the extent to which this matters is open to debate) there is no doubt that FATCA and it’s assumptions reflect a U.S. Government whose conduct is in no way rooted in morality. In some instances the United States is “immoral” and in some instances “amoral”.
But, either way, one is faced with the question of whether it is somehow immoral to “lie” when asked questions by an immoral government, when the questions are rooted in immorality.
In any case to be accused of lying by the U.S. Government and/or the various FATCA collaborators is like being “called ugly by a frog”.
@WhiteKat
While this article is referring to people opting out of OVDI into Streamlined, I can’t see any reason why it wouldn’t apply only to those entering Streamlined. I am not advocating one way or the other but this may be useful to know.
“Martin R. Press of Gunster, Yoakley & Stewart PA [attorney for Zwerner in the much publicized FBAR penalty case] noted that only U.S. willfulness counts for purposes of the streamlined program. For the most part, he said, what someone does overseas is not a factor, even if a foreign account is willfully unreported in the foreign country of residence.”
“However, the IRS has left itself some wiggle room, Press noted. For example, deliberate evasion of foreign residence country income tax is a negative factor.”
http://bit.ly/1wUOKpt
Given those factors, perhaps “lying” is not truly an issue, though I agree with you, a lie is a lie and no amount of justification changes that fact.
My husband and I entered OVDI because once aware of our tax filing obligations to the US as US citizens, our non-compliance would have been wilful. I guess we qualify for yes-yes status. Had we missed the boat on OVDI, we would have looked at other compliance options as they made themselves available. Unfortunately, the IRS keeps moving the goal posts closer, so it’s getting very difficult to know when exactly to take the plunge, but I would think that unless you’ve done something drastically evasive, the IRS would have a difficult time knowing exactly when you knew about your tax filing obligations. They certainly don’t have the resources to pursue many investigations, unless of course to make examples of people. Imagine the optics of doing that though!
I’m not interested in being a conscientious tax objector or claiming I’m not a US person. The former involves too much work and constant shoulder checking, and I’d be lying to myself if I chose the latter. It’s completely unrealistic for me to think I’ll never want to enter or fly over the US again. Not moralistic, just what’s most practical to me. I’ve paid a significant price for the two votes I’ve cast in US elections, I hope those of us who have a voice in the US can make a difference.
My husband, born in Canada, could have lied to me and our banks about his US-ness, but chose to support me by saying that we were “in it together”.
Banks and governments are one thing, but lying to your family is another.
Pingback: Diary of Aunt Fran — in hiding from #FATCA | Post it Here: Why FBAR/fatca/cbt is All Wrong
Pingback: Cook v. Tait 18: #Americansabroad by their very nature benefit the US government wherever they may be found | U.S. Persons Abroad – Members of a Unique Tax, Form and Penalty Club