Originally, my understanding was that existing customers would not be signaled under FATCA regulations unless their accounts were over $50,000. Yesterday, I spoke with a woman whose accounts never exceed $10,000 in aggregate. Furthermore, she is a young mother who hasn’t worked much in the last few years since coming to Canada, and so she has never had an IRS tax liability, as her income would be well below the Foreign Earned Income Exemption. She holds her accounts jointly with her Canadian-only husband. This case highlights why we need the legal action of ADSC.
Yesterday she received the following correspondence from her bank. It shows that they have determined that she has US indicia. They have threatened her with reporting her accounts to the CRA in violation of section 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights, which would require the CRA to obtain a warrant before seizing her account information. But now the TD Bank has threatened to transfer her account information to the CRA. But what crime has she committed that the TD has threatened this action? None at all.
I have recommended that she do nothing–not fill out the self-certification form. But I’d like to hear what others think. Please discuss.
Here is the self-certification form. Please note the date at the bottom: June 9, 2014.
@George…
You did well to so advise. I saw in the UK Treasury IGA regulations and question/comment period (way back when?), that banks were questioning if the $50k was a requirement and if they could just report everything. UK Treasury seemed sympathetic to that position, and that is what set off the alarm bells for me.
I thought folks might be deluding themselves if they thought they could remain under $50K and not be discovered. Having that US indicia seems to trump everything, and why does the bank care if you are under some artificial threshold? Bottom line, with local legislation and statues changes have no obligation to protect you, and they DON’T care. Report them is SOP these days. Isn’t everyone being programmed to rat out each other, or “see something, say something”? With the UK one of the most surveilled nations in the world, that is the environment you are now operating in and it permeates EVERYWHERE. Banks no exception.
@Just Me, The UK Govt actually went out of its way to reword the agreement to accomodate FIs.
There is NO minimum, to have a floor you need to OPT IN.
The 50,000 threshold in my eye simply gave you a little breathing room with the July deadline but the breathing room was weeks NOT months.
It is a report everything environment.
For relinquishers documented/undocumented, I would not open an account at any FI that asks POB. And never ever discuss such matters…..if asked nationality you are __________.
I have gotten to the point where I ask anyone who asks me if I had anything to do with the states that their comment is racist.
@George…
Re “It is a report everything environment.”
That has become my default assumption. 🙂
The most important destruction of freedom, in my view, is really about Canadian-only husband who is the principle bread winner–the Canadian who will have his accounts exposed to the IRS in violation of his rights. But as for the woman in the post, she is not earning, doesn’t owe any taxes and doesn’t have more than $10,000 in aggregate in any accounts. So there are no serious compliance issues.
This doesn’t apply to all Canadian accounts under $50,000 either. I have often told people that if their accounts are under $50,000 AND their bank doesn’t know they are a US person, they will probably not have anything to worry about–at least for now.
I dont necessarly see that this means that TD is going to ignore the $50,000 rule.
When dealing with existing accounts TD has 2 options. The first option is to search through all their records for indicia one time and contact all or those who are tainted. When its reporting time they can apply the $50000 filter to see who to report. The second option is to wait until its reporting time and contact those who meet the threshold and who have not been contacted before. The downside to the second option is that they have to do this every year and it has to be done by a specific deadline.
TD may have decided to do it all at once just to get it over with, that doesn’t automatically mean that all accounts will be reported.
As I review the privacy policies of RBC I see that, upon a written request, I have the right to review the personal information that they have on file for me, for accuracy. I think I might just do that! And if there’s anything indicating an “unambiguous” place of birth indicating USA I will correct the situation and provide them an alternate piece of ID which would be equally acceptable such as my Ontario drivers licence or Ontario health card.
It’s appalling that as Canadian citizens we have to protect ourselves from our very own Canadian Government, isn’t it?
No surprises here, unfortunately. As I’ve written before, integrating static customer data with systems containing data such as account balances is extremely costly for banks. If they aren’t forced to do it, they won’t.
Right on VanCity! Does anyone know for sure if Coast Capital Credit Union is also classified as local base? I can’t find any statement on their website.
Once again to ALL readers. Stay away from TD in all countries globally.
Read the fine print of any odd named FI you have and make sure that TD is not behind said FI.
The “comfy chair” is in offices world wide and has been sent in persons letter boxes.
I am not about to nominate TD for any medals in this situation. Those who have followed my posts these past three years know I’m no spear-or-water-carrier for the Canadian Bankers Association nor any of their member institutions. And I suspect what I’m about to say isn’t going to win me any friends on this thread.
However, with a reluctant sense of fairness I feel I must point out that in this case TD has done no less than what I would expect and demand of any Canadian financial institution in a situation where they have (or think they have) US indicia on an account. They’ve contacted the account holder, notified the account holder they have what they believe to be US indicia for this account, stated this means they MAY have to report account information to CRA which WILL report the information to IRS (TD’s wording but my emphasis FWIW), and have given the account holder what they might argue is a reasonable time to reply with a refutation of the indicia of US personhood (and stating what would constitute such refutation).
They have not just gone ahead and reported the account information to CRA without notifying the account holder. My reading of the IGA is that (horribly and outrageously though this is), that agreement merely says a Canadian FI MAY notify the account holder and seek clarification of the indicia. It doesn’t say the FI MUST do this (I think the agreement damn well should have said that, but as far as I can see it doesn’t).
And further to others’ observations that the $50K threshold is not binding on any FI and can’t be assumed to protect persons with lower thresholds, even now never mind indefinitely, I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to hit TD with a claim they’re being overly zealous. Especially given they did notify the account holder as noted above. And no, I’m not a TD account holder nor share holder nor do I like them, yes I did bank with them decades ago and left them for a credit union, disgusted with what I considered to be the lousy service my local TD branch was giving me.
None of the news Petros posted surprises me. I am somewhat and only slightly gratified that at least TD did the decent and proper thing and contacted their account holder, giving fair warning and an opportunity to respond (or to make whatever preparations she feels she needs to make in coping with this outrageous mess).
Our outrage should now be directed IMO at the Democrats in the US Congress who passed this imperialistic abomination into law, the Obama administration for enforcing it, and our treasonous so-called Harper Government (and every single one of its MPs) for throwing our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and a significant number of our fellow citizens and legal residents under the bus.
TD is doing what their lawyers have told them they have to do, given current Canadian law as it now stands with the passage of the annex to Bill C-31 and the signature on the IGA. And they’ve given our friend fair warning and an opportunity to rebut before they take action. I can’t really feel outrage at TD in this case.
What would send me ballistic is if any Canadian FI were to forward account information to CRA without having gone through the notification process that TD has used in this case. Not to have notified her at all really would be unforgivable and utterly outrageous under any analysis of this situation.
While we all absorb the appreciate the valuable information that Brockers share on an ongoing basis, how about considering a donation to the ADCS to support the constitutional challenge? I did the math: $41,421 is needed:
If just 1,657 people made a modest $25 donation, the goal could be met and we’d be taking real action on these issues that concern us. http://www.adcs-adsc.ca
@CanadianGirl. I’ll second that, and I hope that our friend and her husband carefully consider doing that if they haven’t already.
I have utterly no faith in the humanity or decency of our current Harper Government for reasons too tedious to repeat. For reasons others have expressed, which I reluctantly share, at this state of play I don’t think it’s realistic to expect or even hope that Canadian FIs are going to do any more than what TD has done in this case, up to now at least.
I think the only real hope for Canadians who have US indicia on their FI accounts and don’t have a CLN (or a reasonable alternative explanation, like a receipt or affidavit proving “it’s in the mill” or in rare cases a pre-April-1973 oath of renunciation of prior citizenship before a Citizenship Court judge in Canada), is that the constitutional challenge supported by ADCS succeeds. Unless in the meantime the legal team think there’s a realistic chance (which I personally doubt) of an injunction suspending all FATCA reporting in Canada until the Canadian courts finally resolve the legal issues here.
Sadly, absent an injunction there is little or no probability that the legal issues are going to be settled before one hell of a lot of Canadians’ account information gets reported to CRA and forwarded to IRS. But if that is settled as we all think and believe it should be, at least further generations might be spared this outrage and some semblance of Canadian sovereignty can be restored.
A final observation. In the scheme of things, this is really small potatoes though it would matter to me if I were in our friend’s situation. The self-certification form that was sent to her is called SCI-W8. It’s not W8-BEN (which is an IRS form). Googling SCI-W8 I can only find it on the TD website, and viewing it there as well as on Petros’ post, it appears to me this is a TD form and not an IRS form. Which from my nationalistic perspective (and I do stress this is small potatoes given everything else, but still one takes comfort where one can in these times …) is A Good Thing. Or at least Not As Bad A Thing As It Might Be.
I absolutely would refuse to sign any IRS form. They’re not my country, not my government, screw them. If at some point I have to sign a self-certification form to go with the photocopy of my CLN to get my credit union off my back, I’ll do that IF and ONLY IF it’s my credit union’s form (TD’s in this case) and not a f*****g IRS form.
Very small, very limited kudos to TD for this I guess … And it reinforces my suspicion/hope that these self-certification forms are NOT sent to CRA never mind IRS, they’re kept on file at the FI in case of an audit (which, unless the Harper Traitorhood really has totally sold out our sovereignty) is going to be done by CRA and not by IRS, on what I hope is still sovereign Canadian soil no thanks to Harper and his gang.
Has anyone thought about seeking out someone with professional raising money experience (perhaps for political campaigns or a charity?) There must be one soul out there that is a US Person and would be more than happy to advise IBS / ADCS pro bono?
Is it a case of spending some of the donations to get more? I don’t know. It seems to me all political and charities use marketing to raise money and further their cause. It must work or else they wouldn’t be doing it.
Identifying other ‘US Persons’ is a natural with motivation to give.
Raising the amounts of money needed to not only see through the lawsuit, but what happens if IBS wins? That won’t be the end and there has to be a strategy in place for that event or else Harper will try some passage of some legislation at 3 o’clock in the morning while Canada sleeps soundly.
Information is something else that’s needed. You know where the TD’s processing centre is located. What temp agencies are nearby that TD uses? Get someone in there to find out about procedures, and attitudes within the bank. An IT guy would help as well, perhaps an Edward Snowden chap. Wouldn’t FATCA data make a great mailing list to raise money? What agency / headhunter is the bank using for IT staff?
What other facilities nearby do TD staff frequent? Bars, hotels, etc?
Having worked for a bank in administration for a brief stretch, banks are useless. Their staff’s training will consist of an hour or two in a conference room, showing a video about FATCA, why they’re doing this, and it’s their patriotic duty to help clamp down on tax evaders. Then they’ll be sent out into the office to process the forms.
There must be ‘US Persons’ already working for TD who could go on their intranet and find out information about the Regulatory Fulfillment Team, who are the managers, where in the building are they located etc.
Which company cleans the processing centre at night? Find out. It’s not rocket science, if they’re using vans with livery, the name of the company and phone number will be there? Get someone to apply to work with them.
Which company provides security? Do you know any staff working in their mailroom (the mailroom is a great place to learn about an organisation)?
Without knowing more about the IRS’ unpaid agents, it’s a case of shooting in the dark somewhat. Any information obtained could help with the Charter Challenge as well.
There must be some local kids of ‘US persons’ who can work for a few months to gather information or retired people.
Harper has thrown all duals under a bus and this level of engagement is what it’s going to take.
What the banks are doing needs to be exposed as not a service to stop tax evasion serving the greater good, but a dirty medieval witch hunt that has all the hallmarks of Salem, Massachusetts.
Might I add a graphic footnote to this:
pic.twitter.com/bSuhoS6pty
@George, I don’t doubt it “hits men too” and very hard but, women who are low income and more are than men are in a particularly difficult situation and women in abusive relationships even more so since rarely if ever do they control any of the finances. I don’t think it’s just for media image purposes that it is stated here that FATCA is setting women in those situations back and is out right dangerous in others.
It is hitting EVERYONE but, I do take yogagirls and others point as very valid and not just for image purposes. Ellen and I from AARO discussed this and it was brought up with ACA some time ago too. They are getting the letters. Sad.
TD and all the banks for their own sake and to make things simplier will just report everyone. Once your bank information goes to CRA it’s all probably going to get dumped over to treasury and IRS threshold or not. You have no control and no say so once your banking information leaves the bank which is horrendous all on its own. Did anyone take note of the little clause at the bottom saying if you become a U.S. person to notify the bank within 30 days? This truly is a witch hunt. What will happen if you do NOT sign these forms or if you do NOT notify the bank within 30 days that you became a “U.S. person” No checking account for you?
@Schubert1975
I see your point but the only problem is that the TD form asks specifically about place of birth. The IRS form doesn’t. I’ve always maintained that the place of birth questions are the most insidious as there is no way to maneuver one’s way around them without lying.
@Dash1729 Not sure I follow you here. I don’t see anywhere on TD’s form SCI-W8 that they ask for place of birth. The mention of place of birth in this case isn’t on that form, it’s on the accompanying notice which identifies the indicia the bank says they have, namely the person’s US birthplace, which Petros has mentioned in one of his replies above the bank got because (if I understand correctly) our friend did not yet have Canadian ID when she applied for an account at the bank, so she produced US ID which (I think) identified her place of birth — maybe her passport?
I agree that it would be insidious and IMO outrageous for any Canadian bank to ask any account holder where they (never mind their parents) were born. The IGA doesn’t require this, nor does FATCA, nor does Canadian banking legislation require nor even authorize that, and of course there is also Section 15 of the Charter. However as I read the documents in this particular case (I hope correctly), I don’t see that any TD form used in this case did in fact ask for her place of birth.
If I’m wrong or I’ve missed something, perhaps someone can set me straight, but checking again above and on the TD website I don’t see evidence of this.
… once again driving home the point that one should never present a birth certificate or passport as ID to a bank when opening an account, at least in Canada that isn’t required and all you need is a driver’s license which never shows place of birth, at least not in Ontario it doesn’t.
Hindsight is of course always 20/20, but still going forward it’s good to remember … If you present a birth certificate or passport as ID when opening an account, the bank will photocopy it (ditto a driver’s license of course) and file it. Which leaves you wide open when they launch a witch hunt into their account files, as seems to be the case here …
Hey I can have my 20 year old with tainted US connections vandalize the TD bank form, just as he did the “consular report of birth abroad” changing his birth place to a cave in Switzerland and renaming his father as German YakHeaddy and the mother as Pinot Tutu. I wish I could post images on this site.
Very interesting –
US Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) and the lawyer Jim Bopp are going on a roadshow in Europe during October.
AARO members and others in the community are invited to join the Senator and Mr. Bopp over breakfast at Reid Hall on Monday, October 6. This is a non-partisan event organized to inform members of the Paris community about this particular effort to overturn legislation that is causing widespread concern among overseas Americans and their families.
Venue: Reid Hall – Salle de Conférence 4 rue de Chevreuse, Paris 6th
Métros: Vavin and Notre Dame des Champs
Date: Monday, October 6, 2014 8:15 to 10:30 am
Price: 10 euros per person, to help defray the costs of catering and room rental
http://www.aaro.org/events/event/20-breakfast-with-senator-mike-lee-and-james-bopp-jr
Schubert1975 has done an excellent job of being rational about what TD is doing. I join Just Me in declaring past accusations and intimations of fear-mongering to be unkind at best. The train has been rumbling in the distance, and now it’s pulling into the station. Some of the people on the platform wear a redwhite&blue star — their unwanted ticket. It’s sad to watch variations of the ostrich maneuver now scrabble away at perceived exit gates: tell a lie, foot-drag, willfully misconstrue, grab a different citizenship, flip financial institution, take a name off an account, etc. If/when the letter arrives, there will only be a few days to respond. An ill-advised response may only compound consequences. The future is long. Uncertainty corrodes. Sauve qui peut.
IF she closes her account at TD – under the IGA/FATCA is the bank obligated to report the closing balance? That is my recollection but I have not refreshed my review of the Canadian IGA.
George, indeed, which is why I amended to spouses but you are right that the image of a stay at home mom at the financial mercy of a “foreigner” husband makes a bigger impact on ppl.
@Don
Thanks for the AARO link to the Mike Lee and Jim Bopp European tour event.
The Republicans are at least trying to do something. Whereas the Democrats are still playing a game of “make believe” they care, while simultaneously licking their chops in anticipation of the forthcoming FATCA/FBAR fund raiser.