One of the commonest responses by those who have never studied the issue of US personhood is,”If you don’t want to pay your taxes, then renounce your citizenship.” Well, just off the top of my head here are some reasons that people may be reluctant to renounce United States citizenship:
- There is a $450 [now $2350] fee for renunciation. I don’t want one stinking penny to support the evil Federal government of the United States.
- It is possible that I am not a US citizen, and I don’t think that I am one. If I renounce I am admitting to them that I am a United States taxpayer. Relinquish, don’t renounce if you can.
- I don’t want to show my face to a US consulate: that will put me on their radar and I am better off them not knowing I even exist.
- I don’t want to stand in line. Waiting times have been over one year at some US Consulates.
- I’ve never been in compliance with the IRS, and I don’t have a Social Security Number. I’ve never paid taxes to the United States, but if I renounce, I will have to certify five years of tax compliance under threat of perjury. If I can’t do that, then I can’t fill out the exit tax form (Form 8854), which has me reveal the value and kind of all my assets to the IRS against my will. I may owe a huge amount of money in back taxes and fines, not to mention that I am afraid of 300% FBAR fines of my financial wealth. I’ve had PFICs in my portfolio, and I know that will cost a lot to bring into compliance. I have had a pretty good TFSA increase and TFSA’s are not tax free in the US. I have had a personal corporation or a sole-proprietorship business in Canada which has permitted me to defer taxes on retained earnings in Canada–but this is not allowed in the USA. I’ve made heavy RRSP contributions which have deferred my taxes in the Canada, but I can’t defer personal RRSP contributions in the USA. I sold my house and paid no taxes on it because it is my primary dwelling–the US expects taxes on anything above $250,000 capital taxes, money which I’d refuse to pay if I could.
- If I renounce, I may not be able to visit my relatives in the United States because I will have to give up my passport and the United States has threatened anyone who renounces for tax purposes with permanent exile from the United States.
- I have to be able to travel now, and if I renounce I won’t have a travel document.
- I will not expose my spouse and family to threats of fines for innocent financial accounts.
- I don’t want to become stateless. My country will not allow me to become a citizen until I renounce US citizenship which means I will become a stateless person.
This is by no means a complete list. But here is one more: (9) I don’t want to go through the hassle of dealing with American bureaucracy the way that this person has:
Hello All,
I’m new to posting here but have been reading up on the comments for quite some time. Since I’m in desperate need of support from people who know exactly what I’m going through, I’ve decided to make my first post here. I’ve been living in another country for about 10 years (won’t post which one, just in case), and I renounced last month. This whole process of receiving another nationality has been going on for nearly a year now, where the other government needed 3 months to approve my case after I had already spent 4 months jumping through hoops for them and taking all kinds of tests to ‘prove’ I was capable of being a citizen. Still, I was fine with all that, and I got the approval under the condition that I renounce my US citizenship. I was born and raised in the US, but never felt American, as odd as that may sound to some. So right after I graduated college, I left, and I integrated myself into another country so well that I can speak the local language without an accent and whenever I go to the US (which isn’t often), I get culture shock. I don’t really have any ties left in the US (all my friends are here), except for my mother, whom I love very dearly. For health reasons, she cannot visit me here, and I always have to go visit her. When I moved abroad, I was told by our CPA that I didn’t need to file a US tax return unless I worked for an American company. Like an idiot, I believed her, because I thought, “Well, she’s an accountant, she should know.” You can imagine my shock when I contacted the US embassy for an appointment and found out they were all lies. I am already paying crippling taxes in this country, and now the US wants a piece of what very little I have left? I don’t think so. I don’t make a lot, and in fact, I haven’t made over the required reporting amounts for about 2 of the five years. The other 3 I was barely over. I’ve only been allowed to work here freelance since I got here, and my citizenship is only guaranteed providing that I can shed the burden of my US citizenship AND keep my standard of living the same. When you work freelance, how in the world are you supposed to do that?
Originally, I was told before I went to the embassy that I would have my CLN in approximately 5 weeks. Upon arrival, one woman said to expect 8-10 weeks while another said 6-8. I e-mailed the consulate a while ago to ask if the wait times were still the same because I have lost a lot of work recently and cannot make it up because I have no passport. I have a driver’s license, but it’s not recognized here for whatever reason as a valid form of ID, so no ID, no job. I’ve spoken to my new country about getting a replacement ID from their system, but they said that legally my residence permit should be enough. I’m finding, though, that many companies around here are turned off and disturbed by the fact that I no longer have a passport and consider me some kind of risk. Anyway, I received an answer that the wait times are now around 12-15 weeks. This is the THIRD time that my wait time has been doubled. First 5, then ten, now 15! I asked if it was 15 in total or 15 from today, and they answered with “Hopefully in total :)”. They don’t even know!
This is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable. I was supposed to start a new job in October – my dream job – which I can now no longer do because these idiots are just sitting on their hands while my life has been turned upside down. If my mother dies or gets even sicker, I will not be able to visit her because I have no passport, I can’t find decent work, and nothing in my personal life is allowed to change. I’m not even allowed to move or get married, meaning that I’m holding people at arm’s length just because I have absolutely no idea how long this is going to take. I’m not a person who cries, and in fact, I can’t even remember the last time I did before that, but the moment I got that E-mail, I just burst into hysterical tears. Every day feels like a year, and what happens if my renunciation is not even approved? I’ll have to start all over!
I’m also being ostracized by any and every American that I know, who can’t fathom that I would ever give up ‘the most precious and coveted citizenship in the world’. (Barf). I’ve had people start yelling at me on more than one occasion just because I simply said that I renounced. I didn’t say I hated the US, I didn’t say anything bad about the US, just that I love this country and I made the decision that I was a citizen here and not the US. Seriously, do people think we’re going to just magically change our opinions when they freak out like this? My feelings of apathy for the US have just slowly turned into loathing during the course of this process. People ask me every day if I have my passport from my new country, and all I can do is get tears in my eyes and beg them to please stop asking me that because this process will take a while. Still, they care, so they constantly keep asking. It’s like digging in the knife a little deeper, especially when my citizenship approval here can still be revoked if the government so chooses. I just want to be free, want to belong to a country that I feel so at home in, and I find it so ironic that a country which preaches freedom from the rooftops is taking so long at granting me mine. And if and when it does, it will punish me for that by ‘naming and shaming’ me on some stupid list and trying to paint me as a tax dodger. If it weren’t for my mother, I’d never set foot in that country again and have gone so far as refusing to buy US made products or even speak English.
Anyway, I’ve basically just stopped believing anything the consulate tells me because I have to in order to protect my sanity. I’m worried that when 15 weeks rolls around, they’ll extend it to 25 or something. My life stayed constant for a while, but now it’s starting to roll backwards like a boulder down a mountain and of course the US doesn’t care. Sorry I’m ranting to all of you for probably what seems like no apparent reason, I was just wondering if there was still anyone here in the forums or whatever these are outside of North America and what they were originally told about their CLNs vs when they actually got them.
@Tokyorose What I meant with the cases being dealt with individually is that the requirements of some people from different backgrounds / different jobs / families have different things that have to be set. For me, I just had to prove that I could take care of myself, and my requirements were actually much less. For someone with a family or their own company, it gets much harder. But I can’t imagine this country is the only one who does things this way.
And for the record, I don’t feel like my basic human rights were violated by this experience, I just feel violated period. Why is it that so many other nationalities can just go to the consulate and renounce, and our fate hangs in the balance of some pencil pusher behind a desk in Washington who wasn’t even there in the first place? It just doesn’t make sense.
“I don’t see why that can’t be done after the fact and the document rescinded in case of mistake”
Can you imagine the entire world issuing passports, driver’s licenses, marriage certificates, naturalization papers, etc., etc., etc. based on such a principle?
On the other hand, I did have my passport renewed while I waited (quite some time ago, however).
I really do need to go to bed.
CLN is based upon relinquishment of citizenship rights. It could be given to anyone who renounces without fear that they could abuse it.
@Petros
It is, in fact, possible to enter Canada with a citizenship card alone–no passport. I have done so many times, including in the years after 9/11.
Of course I was in possession of a non-Canadian passport from a country that doesn’t require a visa to enter Canada. I used that passport to board the plane. But no document other than the Canadian citizenship card was shown after landing on Canadian soil.
Yeah, my friends other passport is Burkina Faso. No way they will let you on the airplane without a visa or PR card.
They should just let us ALL relinquish under some new code which takes into account the accidentals, the people who are caught in this with zero financial ties to the U.S. They insist on applying FATCA “as is” They have acknowledged that some will lose citizenship, see Nina Olsen’s remarks. SO, just streamline the process. I am now eleven months waiting for my CLN! Have they not tortured us enough? Let us move on with our lives. Clearly, there is a problem with the laws of other nations, the rights of individuals and many other problems with FATCA they refuse to fix. So, just streamline the relinquishment process, no harm, no foul, let us go. We’re NOT the big fish you said you wanted but, you’re harming us anyway. So do something to clean up at least part of the mess you’ve made. The U.S. is acting like they have zero responsibility in addressing serious issue while finger pointing that everyone else is involved in wrong doing. This has gone well past the point of ridiculousness and is into Orwellian territory. Start charging a modest fee *because you are so broke you had to make all this happen* such as two hundred dollars for on the spot relinquishments. Rake in the dough from that and let us out!
Well, I for one would refuse to pay even one penny to exercise a fundamental right. That’s why I came up with the idea of relinquishing instead of renouncing. That saved me $450.
To that effect I wrote: http://righteousinvestor.com/2011/02/24/renunciation-of-us-citizenship-on-avoiding-a-consular-or-diplomatic-authority-and-the-new-450-fee/
@ UtterlyFrustrated
The situation you describe with your mother is one shared by many here at Brock. When my husband went for his relinquishment appointment in a distant city he was concerned about a dear uncle of his in the USA who was in failing health (hospice care at home). That was why he asked for an “interim letter” (it was my
suggestioninsistence). Unfortunately while we were away for 3 days getting the relinquishment done his Uncle passed away (cousins unable to reach us to let us know) and there was not enough time to get his Canadian passport plus drive down to the USA in order to attend the funeral. He could have and should have had his Canadian passport but he just thought there would be time enough to do that after he got through the relinquishment. Life and death don’t play according to our “schedule”. Your situation is made even more worrisome by not having your new (as in 10 years old) country’s passport. I guess you know I EMpathize with you and I believe everyone here does — even Tokyo Rose.What angers and saddens me is that I can see in the very near future, thanks to all the FATCA fear, thanks to all the mind-boggling bureaucratic entanglements, many people outside the USA being unable to tend to the needs of their loved-ones who are on the other side of the wall American is building around itself. This is not freedom this is f…dom.
Oops. Typing more carefully this time …
… other side of the wall America is building around itself. This is NOT freedom; this is f…dom.
@AtticusinCanada
i whole heartedly agree with your statement “They should just let us ALL relinquish under some new code which takes into account the accidentals, the people who are caught in this with zero financial ties to the U.S.”
pick an arbritary date 6 months or a year in the future and say anyone who wants out 200 bucks now is your chance or forever hold your piece.
where do i sign up???? 🙂
Forever hold your piece????
That’s what a lot of accidentals ARE doing right now.
Hey all,
I haven’t posted here in a while, but since then: (1) I went to the US and I’m amazed at the amount of welfare and social assistance payments they are paying out. It’s just mind boggling and totally unfair to any American that actually works hard and saves money, yet HAS TO PAY for everything by themselves. But it really makes me wonder how broke the US really is.
(2) I have been overseas for around 8 years. In these last years, I would work and ask for payments to be sent to the US bank account. Now I can’t find anyone who will wire money to the US. This must be an unattended consequence of the FATCA. Instead of me spending some money and keeping a little in the US, now I will request money to be sent to a non-US account. Great job USA!
I can’t believe how the government has put us in this situation. If you apply for a bank account, there is always that stupid “Are you a US person question”. Why don’t they just put the “US Person” question inside of golden star? I can’t believe they did this to us. It’s complete discrimination. I do not see this as the banks’ fault, rather the entity who started all of it.
I’m also in the camp that believes that the US told them where and how to implement this “US person question.” I’ve seen applications from a few banks and the question is basically the exact same thing, even in other languages.
I think it’s safe to say too, that stateside Americans have no clue and this our “punishment” for living overseas. This was confirmed when I was in the US and a very high number of clueless Americans asked me WHERE I lived and when I told them, they said “Cool!! You must spend a lot of time on the beach!!” They have no idea that you have to work, pay taxes, and that it also gets cold in 3rd world countries. Ííísh, and the looks I got when I would speak in other languages!!
Last one: How can all of these politicians throughout the world NOT realize that the FATCA is potentially dangerous for them, and at the very least, says very clearly that US Law supercedes their own national laws????? I really expected more out of the leaders of the developed world ex the USA.
@Petros, heartsick,
I just received an email from Mr Todd stating he “did not take her comments out of context”:
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/persons+Canada+express+fear+loathing+crackdown/10118795/story.html
Atticus, I LOVE what you’ve suggested. However, to give us an easy way out would be HUGELY embarrassing to the Zero-Bama crowd, and they’d never let this happen.
I think a better suggestion might be, ask for exactly what you’ve just done, but give them the face-saving way out of making it look like it’s them who have expelled us traitors, thereby letting them look like macho heroes. Heck, go ahead and even publish our names on the “name and shame” list.
I could live with that, as the outcome for us would be favourable as in what we’ve wanted all along.
@BB, petros, heartsick… Just let the media-storm blow over. It is true that the media warps the message to get the most attention. But everybody forgets after a day or two although we do not throw out websites like we can throw away paper newspapers. Even with permanent websites the issues will change like the weather. I have dealt with TV people coming into my office interviewing me without me knowing, about the Spirit Bear, which I have done research on. I just ignore it and although my kids taped it on Global TV in Vancouver I have never watched it.
geeez, it’s have you back and to see you comment here once again if even briefly!
How was your trip to the US — with wife and son? No passport problems for the son of a *US citizen*? Any progress with time on your second citizenship so you will be able to relinquish? Is the banking situation any less difficult for your needs with no US account. I know you were able to get an account where you are before and without the *US* question requirement.
More broke; less broke than what you have thought?
The Canadian Challenge should wake up some politicians here in Canada and around the world that what they bought into and the cookie-cutter IGAs and “foreign financial institution” questions now asked may have been their folly. I know you will stay tuned to how that proceeds (and can’t even imagine how hard it would be for you to donate, even as a token gesture of support).
Take good care — hope your family is well and you continue to manage there until you have the citizenship you want and need.
The question I would have for the “accidental Americans” is how you would know that you did anything wrong when you leave the US at such an early age. Does the IRS send you a letter when you are 18 and remind you that you have to file tax forms. Does the Canadian goverment remind you that you are still a US citizen first and a Canadian second when you become a Canadian citizen. No, they blow smoke up your but and tell you what a great country Canada is and that you have all the rights and freedoms that all other Canadians have, really?
EC…the problem that I have with the United States is not one where the “accidental Americans” in my family were born south of the border. They were born in Canada, yet because of the fact that my wife spent her formative years qualifying her to pass on her US citizenship, residing in the States, my “born-in-Canada” Canadian citizen children now have the clinging stench of US citizenship marked upon them. So where is the justice in that? Why should my kids who were born in Canada have to “renounce” their US citizenship just because their mother transmitted US citizenship to them. And why should my children have to choose. They were born in Canada, they are Canadian Citizens and the fact that PM Harper rolled over and took it up the @$$ from the United States government makes me absolutely furious.
@The Animal…..yup…….
Yes, this is forced citizenship. People are necessarily born somewhere, acquiring the citizenship of their parents or the place where they were born, and in most cases these two nationalities are one in the same.
But since the US’s citizenship rules were made, more people are moving around internationally, working and studying abroad temporarily, and children are born outside the parent’s home country. It’s not useful to impose dual citizenship on anyone. Dual citizenship should be a choice. Fully informed. A baby can’t choose, but the parents can, or the choice for the 2nd nationality can be deferred to the child’s 18th birthday.
Calgary, thanks for the kind words. Nope, I went alone. I was very sure she wouldn’t be able to get the visa and everything else in time. She didn’t. But AT LEAST she got her and our little boy’s Brazilian passports. That’s a good start.
It’s a mess in the US. Illegals are getting food stamps. I had to get short-term health insurance before I went. I was scared to get a cheaper better policy designed for foreigners because technically I’m a citizen. Anyway, it was expensive. It was nice to try some fast food I haven’t eaten in years and to see the relatives, but I really liked landing back here. I felt like a duck out of water back there.
To further complicate my situation, I went back and told me that I’m probably going to be inherit some land from my grandparents via them, my parents. I checked my case on my passport here. It looks like it’s about to be ready in a few months. Decisions decisions decisions!
I hope everything is going well
Two years ago, I had a feeling that it would come down to this after hearing about FATCA for the first time. Now two years later, I’ve learned just how money-grubbing homelander Americans are. Everything that I feared about the United States implementing FATCA has come to fruition.
My wife and I are low-income which means that my wife will be unable to extricate herself very easily from this mess. I am a Canadian citizen, born and raised here in the land of the Maple Leaf and I absolutely refuse to have my tax information get sent to the United States. I do not believe that the United States has any right to my tax information and will sue the CRA if they send my tax information along with my wife’s down to the IRS. I object to the United States deeming me a US person for tax purposes because my wife is a US citizen and Canadian landed immigrant (who wishes that she were a Canadian citizen only). I object to my children being deemed US citizens ((forced citizenship) when they were born on Canadian soil) just because my wife just happened to fulfill her qualifications to transmit her US citizenship to our children.
My mother-in-law has not seen her daughter since she left US soil over 14 years ago. Mainly because we haven’t had the money to visit her down in Shreveport. But thanks to this asinine FATCA, my wife will be exiled from ever touching US soil and thus being unable to see her mother for the rest of her life. But unfortunately that is a choice that she had to make to keep OUR family intact – with FATCA, she could potentially be detained if she sets foot on United States soil due to FBAR fines.
All I want is for the United States to admit that they are in the wrong, take back their citizenship (with regards to our children), take her renunciation without penalties (as she did not earn enough to pay taxes if she was in the United States); forget the draconian penalties for the failure to file a form that she didn’t even know about (FBAR) and let her damned well go so that she can live in Canada, work in Canada and raise our family in Canada in peace.
My hate for the United States though will take quite a bit of time to ease up. Probably when I’ve been 15 years compost will be roughly about the time I stop hating the United States.
The authors of this article http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/335598/Income+Tax/Is+the+Canadian+FATCA+lawsuit+a+Pyrrhic+War whose firm in Canada now offers renunciation services for a big fat fee advise Canadians that their only remedy for CBT and FATCA in Canada is to just comply and renounce (and forget about that pesky insistence on the sanctity of our Charter, Constitutional and human rights):
“……there is a solution to their plight: renounce their US citizenship. Admittedly, this is easier said than done, but renunciation with professional help is likely the solution if they are concerned about being disclosed. Yes, I am sympathetic to “accidental Americans” but the simple fact is: “it is what it is.”..” http://www.moodysgartner.com/fatca-a-canadian-perspective-commentary/ http://www.moodysgartner.com/credentials/kim_moody/
And, what it is is a market growth opportunity says the AmCham https://www.uschamber.com/blog/exit-strategy-fatca-tax-law-keeps-pushing-americans-give-citizenship “……Here’s a hot tip for accountants and tax attorneys: now is a good time to develop specialized expertise in advising clients who may be seeking to expatriate from the United States. That demographic looks more and more like a real growth opportunity…….”
Who is an AmCham member in Canada? And also a member of Democrats Abroad (note the DA support FATCA with some tweaking https://www.democratsabroad.org/group/fbarfatca/august-2014-fatca-frequently-asked-questions-reference-our-work-reforming-fatca): A certain US Homelander in Canada who appeared in support of the FATCA IGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxJf_Lk-yig and whose firm offers renunciation services http://www.moodysgartner.com/renouncing-your-us-citizenship-new-law-may-keep-you-out-forever/ http://www.moodysgartner.com/search-results/?q=renouncing&auth=&date_from=&date_to=
http://www.moodysgartner.com/credentials/roy_berg/
“Community involvement”
“Member – Democrats Abroad, Calgary
Member – American Chamber of Commerce, Calgary”
@ badger
I had you and that particular comment in mind when I wrote this parody last night. You do amazing research and we’re forever grateful to have you on the Brock team.
Moodys Blue
Well it’s hard to be a victim
Of the FATCA system
That’s changin’ all the time
Though we’re sure we’re gonna win
Moodys won’t give in
Gets stranger in our mind
Yeah, it’s hard to figure out
What it’s all about
But it’s rotten through and through
It’s too complicated maybe
So colour them shady
Moodys blue
Oh Moodys blue
Tell us are we gettin’ through
We keep hangin’ on
Try to show you’re wrong
But we never do
Oh Moodys blue
Tell us who we’re talkin’ to
You’re like a cloudy day
And it’s hard to say
What’s drivin’ you
Well when reason comes they’re wincing
For reason is convincing
That they need to think again
They’re arguments unwind
Just like a ball of twine
On a spool that never ends
Just when we think they will concede
Their articles proceed
To show they cannot bend
To change their view
It’s too complicated maybe
So color them shady
Moodys blue
Oh Moodys blue
Tell us are we gettin’ through
We keep hangin’ on
Try to show you’re wrong
But we never do
Oh Moodys blue
Tell us who we’re talkin’ to
You’re like a cloudy day
And it’s hard to say
What’s drivin’ you
This is a parody of Elvis Presley’s “Moody Blue” (written by Mark James) as seen here: