One of the commonest responses by those who have never studied the issue of US personhood is,”If you don’t want to pay your taxes, then renounce your citizenship.” Well, just off the top of my head here are some reasons that people may be reluctant to renounce United States citizenship:
- There is a $450 [now $2350] fee for renunciation. I don’t want one stinking penny to support the evil Federal government of the United States.
- It is possible that I am not a US citizen, and I don’t think that I am one. If I renounce I am admitting to them that I am a United States taxpayer. Relinquish, don’t renounce if you can.
- I don’t want to show my face to a US consulate: that will put me on their radar and I am better off them not knowing I even exist.
- I don’t want to stand in line. Waiting times have been over one year at some US Consulates.
- I’ve never been in compliance with the IRS, and I don’t have a Social Security Number. I’ve never paid taxes to the United States, but if I renounce, I will have to certify five years of tax compliance under threat of perjury. If I can’t do that, then I can’t fill out the exit tax form (Form 8854), which has me reveal the value and kind of all my assets to the IRS against my will. I may owe a huge amount of money in back taxes and fines, not to mention that I am afraid of 300% FBAR fines of my financial wealth. I’ve had PFICs in my portfolio, and I know that will cost a lot to bring into compliance. I have had a pretty good TFSA increase and TFSA’s are not tax free in the US. I have had a personal corporation or a sole-proprietorship business in Canada which has permitted me to defer taxes on retained earnings in Canada–but this is not allowed in the USA. I’ve made heavy RRSP contributions which have deferred my taxes in the Canada, but I can’t defer personal RRSP contributions in the USA. I sold my house and paid no taxes on it because it is my primary dwelling–the US expects taxes on anything above $250,000 capital taxes, money which I’d refuse to pay if I could.
- If I renounce, I may not be able to visit my relatives in the United States because I will have to give up my passport and the United States has threatened anyone who renounces for tax purposes with permanent exile from the United States.
- I have to be able to travel now, and if I renounce I won’t have a travel document.
- I will not expose my spouse and family to threats of fines for innocent financial accounts.
- I don’t want to become stateless. My country will not allow me to become a citizen until I renounce US citizenship which means I will become a stateless person.
This is by no means a complete list. But here is one more: (9) I don’t want to go through the hassle of dealing with American bureaucracy the way that this person has:
Hello All,
I’m new to posting here but have been reading up on the comments for quite some time. Since I’m in desperate need of support from people who know exactly what I’m going through, I’ve decided to make my first post here. I’ve been living in another country for about 10 years (won’t post which one, just in case), and I renounced last month. This whole process of receiving another nationality has been going on for nearly a year now, where the other government needed 3 months to approve my case after I had already spent 4 months jumping through hoops for them and taking all kinds of tests to ‘prove’ I was capable of being a citizen. Still, I was fine with all that, and I got the approval under the condition that I renounce my US citizenship. I was born and raised in the US, but never felt American, as odd as that may sound to some. So right after I graduated college, I left, and I integrated myself into another country so well that I can speak the local language without an accent and whenever I go to the US (which isn’t often), I get culture shock. I don’t really have any ties left in the US (all my friends are here), except for my mother, whom I love very dearly. For health reasons, she cannot visit me here, and I always have to go visit her. When I moved abroad, I was told by our CPA that I didn’t need to file a US tax return unless I worked for an American company. Like an idiot, I believed her, because I thought, “Well, she’s an accountant, she should know.” You can imagine my shock when I contacted the US embassy for an appointment and found out they were all lies. I am already paying crippling taxes in this country, and now the US wants a piece of what very little I have left? I don’t think so. I don’t make a lot, and in fact, I haven’t made over the required reporting amounts for about 2 of the five years. The other 3 I was barely over. I’ve only been allowed to work here freelance since I got here, and my citizenship is only guaranteed providing that I can shed the burden of my US citizenship AND keep my standard of living the same. When you work freelance, how in the world are you supposed to do that?
Originally, I was told before I went to the embassy that I would have my CLN in approximately 5 weeks. Upon arrival, one woman said to expect 8-10 weeks while another said 6-8. I e-mailed the consulate a while ago to ask if the wait times were still the same because I have lost a lot of work recently and cannot make it up because I have no passport. I have a driver’s license, but it’s not recognized here for whatever reason as a valid form of ID, so no ID, no job. I’ve spoken to my new country about getting a replacement ID from their system, but they said that legally my residence permit should be enough. I’m finding, though, that many companies around here are turned off and disturbed by the fact that I no longer have a passport and consider me some kind of risk. Anyway, I received an answer that the wait times are now around 12-15 weeks. This is the THIRD time that my wait time has been doubled. First 5, then ten, now 15! I asked if it was 15 in total or 15 from today, and they answered with “Hopefully in total :)”. They don’t even know!
This is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable. I was supposed to start a new job in October – my dream job – which I can now no longer do because these idiots are just sitting on their hands while my life has been turned upside down. If my mother dies or gets even sicker, I will not be able to visit her because I have no passport, I can’t find decent work, and nothing in my personal life is allowed to change. I’m not even allowed to move or get married, meaning that I’m holding people at arm’s length just because I have absolutely no idea how long this is going to take. I’m not a person who cries, and in fact, I can’t even remember the last time I did before that, but the moment I got that E-mail, I just burst into hysterical tears. Every day feels like a year, and what happens if my renunciation is not even approved? I’ll have to start all over!
I’m also being ostracized by any and every American that I know, who can’t fathom that I would ever give up ‘the most precious and coveted citizenship in the world’. (Barf). I’ve had people start yelling at me on more than one occasion just because I simply said that I renounced. I didn’t say I hated the US, I didn’t say anything bad about the US, just that I love this country and I made the decision that I was a citizen here and not the US. Seriously, do people think we’re going to just magically change our opinions when they freak out like this? My feelings of apathy for the US have just slowly turned into loathing during the course of this process. People ask me every day if I have my passport from my new country, and all I can do is get tears in my eyes and beg them to please stop asking me that because this process will take a while. Still, they care, so they constantly keep asking. It’s like digging in the knife a little deeper, especially when my citizenship approval here can still be revoked if the government so chooses. I just want to be free, want to belong to a country that I feel so at home in, and I find it so ironic that a country which preaches freedom from the rooftops is taking so long at granting me mine. And if and when it does, it will punish me for that by ‘naming and shaming’ me on some stupid list and trying to paint me as a tax dodger. If it weren’t for my mother, I’d never set foot in that country again and have gone so far as refusing to buy US made products or even speak English.
Anyway, I’ve basically just stopped believing anything the consulate tells me because I have to in order to protect my sanity. I’m worried that when 15 weeks rolls around, they’ll extend it to 25 or something. My life stayed constant for a while, but now it’s starting to roll backwards like a boulder down a mountain and of course the US doesn’t care. Sorry I’m ranting to all of you for probably what seems like no apparent reason, I was just wondering if there was still anyone here in the forums or whatever these are outside of North America and what they were originally told about their CLNs vs when they actually got them.
@mettleman, not so weird if you consider how frightening such a detention can be. When you consider the level of arrogance coming from these people.
Some Europeans (not duals) who have been detained in similar manner say they will never return to the US again.
One of the main drawbacks to visiting the US is that every time you do, you have to talk to one of these government employees.
JJD. It shouldn’t be that hard. If you make an online request here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/requests-atip.asp
You should get a response in a few weeks. We did.
I should have posted this comment about renouncing here.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/08/14/ginny-and-gwen-are-canadians-its-not-funny-to-make-american-jokes-about-them/comment-page-1/#comment-2593550
@ petros
i totaly understand what you are saying. i too have had my instances where i have been taken out of the line and had “the talk” or introgation. it can be very intimidating as i think they try to make it such.
i for one am quite at eaze with my decision to never have to talk to homeland security ever again as i never intend to cross the border into america ever again.
@ utterly frustrated. I wept to see your post. the ostracism and denial is something I have experienced in my own family albeit to lesser extent than your own shocking experienc e. without the need to visit my Ageing Ps and a few very very close friends and family I would never want to set foot in USA again. I feel very said about being onthe Department of Homeless Insecurity’s lists and to be considered by FINCEN for the 8854.
@ bubble bustin as always you are psychic and read my mind … “There is a limit to my patience however, and if the US and the majority of it’s citizens show wilful blindness to the damage this is causing America now that these issues are coming to the forefront, then I will renounce”. I reached my limit and have done this.- with the amount of publicity and effort that has gone into educating the USG about the damage that CBT enforcement is causing, igonrance can no longer be their excuse. the chance of meaningful change to RBT is almost nil in the partisan deadlock that passes for governance.
@ polly-I got goosebumps on reading your quote. “let my people go”… indeed.
@George-as ever, you have me cheering from the sidelines at your cogent and pungent bullet points. keep it up!
@808080: when the Hong Kong Immigration Department approves your naturalisation request, they will issue you an “approval in principle” letter. You take that letter to the consulate. The consulate accepts that as evidence you’re not going to be stateless. (If you pressure for long enough them they would theoretically allow you to renounce even if you would become stateless — US is one of the few countries that allows it.)
The US consulate in HK usually seems to retain renunciants’ passports. If the wait at the local consulate is too long, you could try travelling to another country to use the US consulate there. But you will need a travel document to get there and back. ImmD will issue a Document of Identity for Visa Purposes if you need to travel to other countries while your naturalisation hasn’t been finalised. This is basically the same as a stateless person’s travel document and you will need a visa to go anywhere with it.
After all that, then the US State Department twiddle their thumbs for a few months, and eventually you get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. Once you have that CLN in hand you go back to ImmD and they will issue you your formal naturalisation certificate. Only then you can then apply for an HKSAR passport. Other point to note: if you’re going to mainland China, you will not be able to get a Home Return Permit unless your HKSAR passport (and thus your HKID) has a Chinese name on it. If you’re going to Taiwan, you can’t use the online application for your first entry permit.
Why don’t you “JUST” renounce?
I have family back there too. You go on the name and shame list, you are further interrogated like a criminal at the whim of any border agent who hates those who renounced in ways you never were before just for trying to go visit your parents.
You will be considered and told you are a “traitor” for the rest of your life simply because FATCA caused this catch 22 situation for you.
You are being punished for marry or moving abroad though zero fault of your own.
Lastly, Jack Reed jumps up every year saying we should all be barred from ever visiting family there again, most recently even in the case of the death of a loved one.
It is expensive, if you are the kid of an American then you are caught being called American even though born abroad and you never lived in the U.S. If you renounce then you are on the hook for FBAR fines *because you did not know you were American and so did not file those things, you never heard of them.* If you are poor then you can’t afford to “just” renounce.
There’s no other nation on earth that makes laws to damage their own citizens then says “If this harms you then give up your citizenship” and calls that moral and fair.
“Just” renouncing, there’s nothing “JUST” about it.
History will look back to this as America being at war with its diaspora. It may be one of the few wars they win, in that they will no longer have a diaspora to speak of.
JJD – always better to let your MP’s office deal with CIC. I am convinced that no one there has even the slightest idea about organization, timeliness or even what their own regulations are. It’s a mess and the Conservatives are so anti-immigrant, I don’t see it improving anytime soon.
mettleman, I am not surprised. I am still just a PR but the last time I crossed the border (by air) the border guard made a snarky remark about my residing in Canada permanently. Implication being that good Americans live in America.
To an American there are but two kinds of people – Americans and everyone else. You don’t live there, you ain’t one of them and it doesn’t matter what official status might be.
The list is from a Canadian perspective. For others, an item should be “why should one have to renounce?”
The argument, Mark, is that if you are a US citizen you are obligated to obey the tax laws of the USA. One person in that thread at the Financial Post said that the USA has the right to be concerned about its “interests”. So citizens are an asset of the United States as far as these folks are concerned.
It would good if others wrote up lists based on their perspectives in other countries. Here, however, there are a large number of Canadians of Dominant and Effective Nationality which shows the USA’s action and the Canadian government’s acquiescence to be egregious violations of international law and human rights.
@Jan, “Fortunately for our kids, they’re Canadian-born and raised, with Canadian passports only and absolutely no U.S. indicia such as Social Security Nos.”
Your kids need to know something very important.
They must NEVER and I mean NEVER use their long form birth certificate as an additional form of ID in opening any financial accounts.
I know as fact in many countries in the EU, that a young student can use a birth certificate with added other ID to open accounts. I also know as fact of one young student who got hit by the FATCA train when opening an account in that manner last month.
Petros, I often ask homelanders if dual Cuban/US Citizens need to obey Cuban Laws whilst they are living in Florida. After all, if they are in Key West its less than 100 miles.
The response is usually….but, but, but………
You know, I hope the “why don’t you just renounce” question isn’t one that the Canadian courts consider seriously–in certain contexts (such as a Canadian court case) it is a rather offensive question to even ask.
It is roughly the equivalent of asking a battered wife (or battered husband–it can cut both ways at times) who is pressing charges after showing clear physical evidence of abuse–why she doesn’t just divorce the bum. Yes–maybe she regrets not divorcing the guy years ago; maybe she’ll do so now or at some point in the future. Divorce may indeed be one of the options she has on the table. But it’s totally her business and a completely irrelevant and offensive question to ask in the context the prosecution of the abusive spouse for abuse.
@George
An even better question would be to ask those wacky Brits–who were among the first to hop into the FATCA bed–what they’d think of Argentina declaring a Falkland Islander to be an “Argentinian person” and subject to various Argentinian laws. Somehow I don’t think the Brits would respond too kindly to that.
@Dash…..touche and bravo….I shall shamelessly use that!!
“How do you like your freedom now?”
The comments on this thread reveal that Americans abroad consider their U.S. citizenship to be a form of slavery.
Homelanders don’t realize that they are slaves because they have never attempted to leave.
If Homelanders tried to leave they would realize how few freedoms American citizens actually have.
That said, slavery is as much a state of mind as a reality. In other words, slavery is part of reality but that reality is reinforced by agreeing with the slave master.
Americans abroad will never be free until they believe they are free. They will never be free until they mentally declare themselves to be a free men. You cannot and must not give the USA this kind of power over you.
As Allan wrote,
“As a man thinketh …”
So, either return to the U.S. or declare yourself a free person.
Right up there with waiving our rights and defining us as “US citizens who happen to reside in Canada or XXX country”.
@USCitizenAbroad, “Americans abroad will never be free until they believe they are free. They will never be free until they mentally declare themselves to be a free men.”
Both @Dash and @BC-DOC have had comments along that line.
If you in fact relinquished under 8 US Code or you are an accidental with no US Passport, then you can only be NOT-American.
Under that circumstance you can not let anyone call you an American or admit to being an American because you are NOT.
If someone sees a US Place of Birth and says you are American, the answer is “No I am not.”
The same goes for other Citizenship by descent from other countries too!!!
Indeed, you have given up your God given freedoms when someone calls you a Slave and you ask “Am I, is that true?”
If you allow someone to call you an American and accept that, then you are!!
My wife was born in the US and moved to Canada 4 months later. That was in 1949. Never worked there, never went to school there, never had a passport there, never had nothing to do with the country. She grew up in Canada, went to school here and became a citizen in 1994. We have been married for 46 years. And now some moronic Canadian government has decided that we are second class Canadians because financial institutions will have to pay some withholding taxes, are you kiding me. I am totaly pissed with retared Conservatives on both sides of the border. Nothing but moorons. And the ones that say oh just renounce are just as stupid. Renounce what stupidity. We’ll be doing that real soon. I remenber getting a letter from the IRS when the wife was 4 months old letting her know that she needed to file her tax returns when she grows up. An absolute disgrace, almost an embaresment being Canadian.
@George, your point about my kids never using their long form birth certificate is duly noted! I expect their passports and driver’s licenses will be sufficient ID.
@AtticusinCanada Well said. There’s no other nation on earth that makes laws to damage their own citizens then says “If this harms you then give up your citizenship” and calls that moral and fair.
“Just” renouncing, there’s nothing “JUST” about it.
@bubble bustin I blame the politicians, not the majority of U.S. middle-class homelanders for FATCA. Few are aware of what FATCA and CBT are doing to ex-pats, and the ones I know (incl. my relatives) when this is explained, are hugely supportive and sympathetic to us. They relate because they’re stuck with a completely dysfunctional Congress and out-of-control president (not to mention, the TARP bail-outs and the IRS debacle). Right now, even Hilary Clinton is attacking Obama. The middle class has been getting pummelled by the incompetence of G.W. Bush and Obama, their administrations, and most of the Republicans and Democrats in Congress. They need a new party–one that actually would represent the middle-class!
The absurdity is that instead of doing the correct and moral thing – change CBT to RBT and apply FATCA only to US Homelanders – the US government continues to force a square peg into a round hole. No other developed country in the world treats its expat citizens as poorly as the US – and for reasons solely for money and control. I was always a very proud and patriotic American living overseas now for almost 20 years. No more. The US government is the biggest threat that I face living overseas – I never thought things would get to this terrible point.
The obvious answer to that question is: “I wish…”
Why would a country keep its citizens from living freely in the country they have chosen (or that their parents have chosen for them)? Yes, the US “lets” us physically leave, but we are to understand that we can never really free ourselves, we must continue to report back to them. Governments who undermine their citizens’ right to free will are called Communist. By imposing CBT and FACTA on its own citizens, the US is in reality keeping us from leaving.
In French, we have a saying that those in power, be them business owners, politicians or governments, should always act, to the best of their ability, “en bon père de famille”. Roughly translated, this basically means those in power should always act responsibly and reasonably. A reasonable government would not have laws that impose harsher penalties on those who have chosen to leave. A responsible government would not impose laws that strip certain of their citizens of their rights.
I once thought having US Citizenship was a good thing. Now? Not so much.
@All, great comments! I just wish we could get an article about all this published in a widely read magazine. In their ignorance, the main opinion of Homelanders seems to be “Why don’t you just come home, or just renounce?” For most of us expats, of course, the U.S. is no longer “home”. And in addition to all of its practical aspects, “renouncing”, sounds very close to “denouncing”, making it difficult to give up citizenship without seeming to condemn the U.S. in the process (something that the attitude of Homelanders can certainly make one feel like doing anyway).
The situation reminds me a bit of when President Gerald Ford offered “clemency” to “draft dodgers” (I prefer to call us “war resisters”) from the Vietnam war on the condition that we return “home” to the U.S., ignoring the possibility that we might want to remain in the countries in which we had established new lives Only later did President Carter declare a general amnesty.
Fortunately, rather than having to “renounce” U.S. citizenship, I have been able to perform the more peaceful-sounding act of “relinquishing” it — just letting it go as a something no longer worth having. Yet the recent actions of the U.S. government against its own expatriates do make me want to denounce the people responsible for those actions.
@Dash1729 – what this Argentinian London 2012 Olympics advert secretly filmed in the Falklands it’s interesting.