One of the commonest responses by those who have never studied the issue of US personhood is,”If you don’t want to pay your taxes, then renounce your citizenship.” Well, just off the top of my head here are some reasons that people may be reluctant to renounce United States citizenship:
- There is a $450 [now $2350] fee for renunciation. I don’t want one stinking penny to support the evil Federal government of the United States.
- It is possible that I am not a US citizen, and I don’t think that I am one. If I renounce I am admitting to them that I am a United States taxpayer. Relinquish, don’t renounce if you can.
- I don’t want to show my face to a US consulate: that will put me on their radar and I am better off them not knowing I even exist.
- I don’t want to stand in line. Waiting times have been over one year at some US Consulates.
- I’ve never been in compliance with the IRS, and I don’t have a Social Security Number. I’ve never paid taxes to the United States, but if I renounce, I will have to certify five years of tax compliance under threat of perjury. If I can’t do that, then I can’t fill out the exit tax form (Form 8854), which has me reveal the value and kind of all my assets to the IRS against my will. I may owe a huge amount of money in back taxes and fines, not to mention that I am afraid of 300% FBAR fines of my financial wealth. I’ve had PFICs in my portfolio, and I know that will cost a lot to bring into compliance. I have had a pretty good TFSA increase and TFSA’s are not tax free in the US. I have had a personal corporation or a sole-proprietorship business in Canada which has permitted me to defer taxes on retained earnings in Canada–but this is not allowed in the USA. I’ve made heavy RRSP contributions which have deferred my taxes in the Canada, but I can’t defer personal RRSP contributions in the USA. I sold my house and paid no taxes on it because it is my primary dwelling–the US expects taxes on anything above $250,000 capital taxes, money which I’d refuse to pay if I could.
- If I renounce, I may not be able to visit my relatives in the United States because I will have to give up my passport and the United States has threatened anyone who renounces for tax purposes with permanent exile from the United States.
- I have to be able to travel now, and if I renounce I won’t have a travel document.
- I will not expose my spouse and family to threats of fines for innocent financial accounts.
- I don’t want to become stateless. My country will not allow me to become a citizen until I renounce US citizenship which means I will become a stateless person.
This is by no means a complete list. But here is one more: (9) I don’t want to go through the hassle of dealing with American bureaucracy the way that this person has:
Hello All,
I’m new to posting here but have been reading up on the comments for quite some time. Since I’m in desperate need of support from people who know exactly what I’m going through, I’ve decided to make my first post here. I’ve been living in another country for about 10 years (won’t post which one, just in case), and I renounced last month. This whole process of receiving another nationality has been going on for nearly a year now, where the other government needed 3 months to approve my case after I had already spent 4 months jumping through hoops for them and taking all kinds of tests to ‘prove’ I was capable of being a citizen. Still, I was fine with all that, and I got the approval under the condition that I renounce my US citizenship. I was born and raised in the US, but never felt American, as odd as that may sound to some. So right after I graduated college, I left, and I integrated myself into another country so well that I can speak the local language without an accent and whenever I go to the US (which isn’t often), I get culture shock. I don’t really have any ties left in the US (all my friends are here), except for my mother, whom I love very dearly. For health reasons, she cannot visit me here, and I always have to go visit her. When I moved abroad, I was told by our CPA that I didn’t need to file a US tax return unless I worked for an American company. Like an idiot, I believed her, because I thought, “Well, she’s an accountant, she should know.” You can imagine my shock when I contacted the US embassy for an appointment and found out they were all lies. I am already paying crippling taxes in this country, and now the US wants a piece of what very little I have left? I don’t think so. I don’t make a lot, and in fact, I haven’t made over the required reporting amounts for about 2 of the five years. The other 3 I was barely over. I’ve only been allowed to work here freelance since I got here, and my citizenship is only guaranteed providing that I can shed the burden of my US citizenship AND keep my standard of living the same. When you work freelance, how in the world are you supposed to do that?
Originally, I was told before I went to the embassy that I would have my CLN in approximately 5 weeks. Upon arrival, one woman said to expect 8-10 weeks while another said 6-8. I e-mailed the consulate a while ago to ask if the wait times were still the same because I have lost a lot of work recently and cannot make it up because I have no passport. I have a driver’s license, but it’s not recognized here for whatever reason as a valid form of ID, so no ID, no job. I’ve spoken to my new country about getting a replacement ID from their system, but they said that legally my residence permit should be enough. I’m finding, though, that many companies around here are turned off and disturbed by the fact that I no longer have a passport and consider me some kind of risk. Anyway, I received an answer that the wait times are now around 12-15 weeks. This is the THIRD time that my wait time has been doubled. First 5, then ten, now 15! I asked if it was 15 in total or 15 from today, and they answered with “Hopefully in total :)”. They don’t even know!
This is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable. I was supposed to start a new job in October – my dream job – which I can now no longer do because these idiots are just sitting on their hands while my life has been turned upside down. If my mother dies or gets even sicker, I will not be able to visit her because I have no passport, I can’t find decent work, and nothing in my personal life is allowed to change. I’m not even allowed to move or get married, meaning that I’m holding people at arm’s length just because I have absolutely no idea how long this is going to take. I’m not a person who cries, and in fact, I can’t even remember the last time I did before that, but the moment I got that E-mail, I just burst into hysterical tears. Every day feels like a year, and what happens if my renunciation is not even approved? I’ll have to start all over!
I’m also being ostracized by any and every American that I know, who can’t fathom that I would ever give up ‘the most precious and coveted citizenship in the world’. (Barf). I’ve had people start yelling at me on more than one occasion just because I simply said that I renounced. I didn’t say I hated the US, I didn’t say anything bad about the US, just that I love this country and I made the decision that I was a citizen here and not the US. Seriously, do people think we’re going to just magically change our opinions when they freak out like this? My feelings of apathy for the US have just slowly turned into loathing during the course of this process. People ask me every day if I have my passport from my new country, and all I can do is get tears in my eyes and beg them to please stop asking me that because this process will take a while. Still, they care, so they constantly keep asking. It’s like digging in the knife a little deeper, especially when my citizenship approval here can still be revoked if the government so chooses. I just want to be free, want to belong to a country that I feel so at home in, and I find it so ironic that a country which preaches freedom from the rooftops is taking so long at granting me mine. And if and when it does, it will punish me for that by ‘naming and shaming’ me on some stupid list and trying to paint me as a tax dodger. If it weren’t for my mother, I’d never set foot in that country again and have gone so far as refusing to buy US made products or even speak English.
Anyway, I’ve basically just stopped believing anything the consulate tells me because I have to in order to protect my sanity. I’m worried that when 15 weeks rolls around, they’ll extend it to 25 or something. My life stayed constant for a while, but now it’s starting to roll backwards like a boulder down a mountain and of course the US doesn’t care. Sorry I’m ranting to all of you for probably what seems like no apparent reason, I was just wondering if there was still anyone here in the forums or whatever these are outside of North America and what they were originally told about their CLNs vs when they actually got them.
A lighter hearted version(?):
1) You lose your right to 1st amendment and they will put you on a watch list or no fly list for mouthing off
2) If they decide to drone you (as US citizen) they have to put your name on a list and you’ll lose your chance at some posthumous fame on page 4 of a newspaper
3) You can’t drive around in a pickup anymore with a rifle in the window, pack heat or buy bullets at Wallmart
4) You can’t sing Tony Keith anymore
Aw, screw it, take your 450 bucks and just do it already!!
The US courts have decided that if you step outside the boundaries of the USA you don’t enjoy Constiutional rights. So yeah, that is no true impediment to renunciation.
Along with Toby Keith, I can’t sing Al Green, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQIWhqjWhpo
Is this not the ultimate description of the human rights abuses *US Persons Abroad* are being subjected to with the very punitive actions of the US through its Consulates in other countries that are our link to freedom to live our lives, earn our income, pay our taxes in the countries in which we have chosen to live and be part of that country’s society? What more is there to say — we are criminalized. What of those not strong enough or without resources, emotional of financial, to get through the process?
“Why don’t you just renounce? ”
10. I have already relinquished under the Expatriation Act of 1868 and 8 US Code, am not a US Citizen and do not want no stinken paper as there is no desire to ever cross that border again.
@Calgary, its a pure violation of the Expatriation Act 1868 and last I looked remains the law.
http://home.earthlink.net/~walterk1/Patr/US/ExpatriationAct.html
Excellent and very moving account that Petros publishes in the main post on this thread. I’d recommend cross-posting the link when blogging on news stories and replying to knee-jerking knuckle-dragging trolls who spout “just renounce already” except many websites and moderators don’t allow inclusion of web links in posts (though one can sometimes finesse that by plain-English reference to the web page or at least suggesting a Google search that would likely pop up this thread high on the list of hits).
Maybe that account should be forwarded to Joe Arvay as backup refutation if some Justice Department lawyer tries that “just renounce already” line when the court challenge gets in front of a judge. I’ll suggest this to Stephen by private email …
At the end of the day the US Government puts people in a position to seek permission from the US to renounce their citizenship in addition to all the above reasons. If you renounce, you not an ex-member of Club USA until the CLN arrives.
Other countries leave the decision to their citizens. You fill in a form and sign it and it’s done. Other Government’s will abide by your wishes and don’t resort to the tactics of Senators Schumer and Levin to handcuff people to the US.
Other countries have more respect for their ex-pats unlike the US. Being a dual US / EU citizen I know from personal experience in Europe the attitude is more like ‘you leaving good luck and when you decide to return welcome back’ unlike most US Homelanders making you feel as if you’ve committed treason by leaving.
@All, @Don, just a reminder as to the renouncing process in Canada.
1.) Fill out simple form at HOME.
2.) Sign form, no witness needed.
3.) Put form and $100 (CDN) in envelope, put stamp on envelope, mail it.
The farthest you have to journey……….the mail box.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/renounce.asp
Now……..compare that to the home of the free……..
Looking at “Why dont you just renounce” from another perspective.
Because of the 2009 Canadian Citizenship changes, I might after all be Canadian…amongst my other pedigree.
Do I consider myself Canadian? No.
Did I panic on learning that I may be Canadian? NO.
Individuals that discover they may be considered a US Citizen do PANIC!! Literally, discovering you may be a US Citizen is like a GP telling you that you have some life threatening ailment. You feel sorry for the poor soul making such a discovery.
Having discovered I may be a Canadian, do I have any pressing need whatsover to get rid of that possible clinging citizenship? Of course not because Canada is not narcissistic.
One more reason;
10.) I refuse to live my life subject to the whims of a foreign government.
What do some people not get about the United States being another foreign government amongst many?
Frankly, I do not care what India, China, New Zealand………..want me to do, they are foreign governments and if I go to any of those places I will respect and follow their laws whist in their territory.
George, exactly: If I renounce, I would be acknowledging that the US laws apply to me. But I have no representation in Washington, so pound salt.
How’s this for another reason: As a US citizen, I haven’t yet given up on advocating for changes that will benefit ALL Americans ANYWHERE they live in the world. CBT is an abomination that will ultimately destroy American global migration, making the US a prison for all Americans. There is a limit to my patience however, and if the US and the majority of it’s citizens show wilful blindness to the damage this is causing America now that these issues are coming to the forefront, then I will renounce, and the US will have one less representative in the world. A few thousand people a year may not seem much to you, but a trickle will still drain a tub eventually, and the US will be truly isolated in its exceptionalism.
@UtterlyFrustrated
I know it’s no consolation to you, but there are many of us here who feel just as you do. I’ve been stuck in OVDI for three years and am. I am now being made to jump through hoops for someone who is looking through a haystack for a needle that doesn’t t exist. Hang in there and know that you will eventually get to where you want to be. You may just have to adjust your patience levels though.
Another downside of renouncing is being put on “name and shame” lists by the FBI and State Department. You are also put on this secret list currently with 57 million people, the “Central Index System” (CIS) maintained by the Department of Homeless Insecurity. “As a general matter, CIS does not create a file on a native born U.S Citizen, and thus, information pertaining to native born citizens is not normally accessible or available by querying CIS. However, in some rare instances, a U.S. Citizen may have committed an immigration law violation and/or is the subject of an investigation related to an immigration violation. In such circumstance an A-File will be created. In addition, in the event that a person (native born or naturalized) decides that he or she does not want to be a U.S. citizen, he or she may formally renounce his or her citizenship through DOS. DOS sends a Certificate of Loss of Nationality to USCIS to be filed in an A-File created for this purpose.” See http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/privacy/privacy_pia_uscis_cis.pdf for more details. However, I have been to the USA five times since renouncing a year ago and have had no problems entering — this is just like the needless IRS forms that one has to file in perpetuity (a good scrabble word) if one chooses not to renounce.
Here are some principles that “homelanders,” USA Politicians and the US Government do not “get.”
1. The United States is a FOREIGN country.
2. I do not bank with Chase Manhattan Bank because doing so would be OFFSHORE BANKING.
3. United States Law is FOREIGN law that has no basis outside the United States.
4. I do not invest in FOREIGN companies like Wal Mart, McDonalds or General Motors.
5. I do not invest in funds like T Rowe Price because they are FOREIGN funds and OFFSHORE funds.
6. The Country that I reside in is my HOME.
7. Some may consider the USA a nice place to visit but we would never want to live there.
8. My loyalty is solely and absolutely to that single country whose passport is that I carry. The passport I carry is the most valuable travel document to me.
Exactly the response needed, George. Will the country where UtterlyFrustrated applies for his new passport accept that? They absolutely should; will they?
Like many of us I find it so frustrating that I have friends and relatives who just don’t get it! I hear stuff like: “You always have the option to go back and live in the US”,” it’s US law so you have to obey it” etc., and of course,” just renounce and you won’t have any problem!”
I have struggled like so many of us about what to do: try relinquishing or stay hidden. The summary on Maple Sandbox about this dilemma is excellent. As far as I am concerned I relinquished in 2002 when I became a Canadian citizen (having lived in Canada all my adult life, since 1971). However I do not have a CLN and my husband (Canadian born in Denmark) wants me to get one. I have good grounds for relinquishment as I have done absolutely nothing to claim US citizenship since 2002.) I have not wanted to go to the expense of a trip to Toronto, and have worried that they will not accept relinquishment and require that I renounce which I will refuse to do. However, I am taking a trip to Vancouver around Xmas to visit my daughter and am thinking of booking an appointment to relinquish there so I can get a CLN. I have heard that the Vancouver consulate now requires only one visit which I hope is true..
I hope that someone here who is “safe” would send UtterlyFrustrated’s moving plea for sanity in the State Department straight to Obama’s desk. This is yet another example of unconscionable abuse of a US citizen who is desperately wanting to be an ex-US citizen. This nonsense needs to stop, and stop now. While undoubtedly there are numerous crises around the globe that require his attention Obama’s first responsibility is to his own people even when those people desire a “divorce”. Let your people go voluntarily, Mr. Obama, or perhaps you will be told to do so by international organizations with no small influence in world affairs.
@ george
10.) I refuse to live my life subject to the whims of a foreign government
exactly
and i also do not have the $40-50,000 in my pocket that it is estimated by my accountant for me to come into such compliance with the irs after renouncing. given that i have my own personal tax filing, an incorporated company with funds over $100,000 once a year and a signer on the board of a not for profit company with funds over $100,000 in the bank accounts at some points during the year….. having to go back and complete 5 years of paperwork just is not going to happen
i will never be setting foot in america again nor will i be standing up and waving my hand by submitting any paperwork to the american gov’t so come find me uncle sam……..
“Let my people go.”
mettleman,
And, isn’t it pathetic that any of us so criminalized should have to do this?
Come and get me (while you’re looking for mettleman) is what I say about my son — come and get ME because my son did nothing wrong in being born to two US parents in Canada. He did not choose where he was born or to whom he was born. He was never registered with the US, never lived in the US, never had a bit of benefit from the US. His country is Canada, not the USA. Come and get me because I refuse to give you any of the hard Canadian-earned and Canadian-taxed inheritance that I will leave for my two children. What I leave for my son and what I have in place for my son is my only peace of mind that he will not be sleeping under a bridge somewhere when I am gone and can no longer help him should all other safety nets fall through. Leave us alone to live our lives as we see fit (not run by the immoral and very punitive extra-territorial US tax law).
The bloody joke of it all is that my son cannot renounce because of ‘mental incapacity’ to understand the concept of citizenship and must have no influence in doing so AND, as well, a parent, a guardian or a trustee does not have the right to do so on his behalf, even with a court order. Go to hell.
A. To become a Hong Kong/Chinese citizen I must renounce my US citizenship first.
B. To renounce my US citizenship, I can’t become stateless, and therefore need to have obtained citizenship first.
How can I reconcile A and B, which are apparently contradictory to one another. Will the US allow me to hold on to my passport until Hong Kong lets me become a citizen?
Great post! Renouncing citizenship is seriously punitive in various ways, and obviously designed as such. My DH and I are dual citizens with dual passports–American-born and educated and married, but residents of Canada for the past 23 yrs–virtually all of our working lives. The USA is where our parents, siblings, and other extended family lives, and naturally, we need to visit them. This is why we dare not renounce, nor can we afford to shell out the money required to become IRS-compliant (5 or 6 yrs. of past info to show we don’t owe them taxes). You see, we can’t even afford to put our kids through the local university without them having student loans and getting $ from being on the dean’s list. Fortunately for our kids, they’re Canadian-born and raised, with Canadian passports only and absolutely no U.S. indicia such as Social Security Nos. My DH and I plan to do our best to fly under the radar right now, pinning our hopes on the ADCS challenge to the Charter. May ADCS succeed!
ran into a friend last nite who i have had conversations with about fatca going back for almost a year now. she is 100% compliant and had always indicated to me that she had no intention of renouncing and was almost a bit smug about her situation of being compliant and me having done no filing whatsoever.
she had just gotten back from her vacation to washington state and indicated to me that based on her border crossing on this occasion….she crossed the border with her canadian passport….she was taken into the back room, made to give up her ss number and then was given a 5 minute lecture on why she needed to return to the states on her american passport and how valuable said passport was and that she should be proud to posess an american passport…….
she was still 2 weeks after the incident quite upset as this had never happened to her before and she was always miffed at me for my “i want out attitude”…..she is now in the process of proceeding with renouncing and is quite torn over doing so as she has an ederly mother and family in the states that she is worried about not being allowed in to see if she gives up her “prized” citizenship. she is now convinced however that she wants nothing to do with america and that it is changing before our eyes into a police state.
weird how one incident can change a persons point of view on something they held dear to them eh?
Here’s another wrinkle. After initially being very upset over learning about all the crazy FBAR penalties and other alphabet soup attacks on US ex-pats, I consulted with a very high-priced lawyer in a large Seattle firm and got no useful information whatever for my money. Some Internet searching revealed that because of the way I became a Canadian citizen in 1978 (and my intent to relinquish US citizenship thereby) I am not a US citizen. Because of FATCA and worry that my US birthplace would flag me as a “US person,” I went to the US Consulate in Calgary to register my relinquishment and apply for a CLN. Aside from the appalling security theatrics, I was very well and courteously treated. My CLN is being held up because I need to have official documentation of my date of naturalization. In 1978 the geniuses in Ottawa were not putting a naturalization date on the citizenship certificate. I applied a year ago to CIC for an official document confirming the naturalization date and am still waiting. My local MP’s constituency office kindly enquired for me and got a lame excuse about funding. And just try contacting CIC by phone yourself to ask about the status of your request! The Canadian Government has sold US-born citizens down the river and insults all citizens with its failure to provide citizenship-related documentation in a reasonable and timely way.