Internal White House emails obtained by BuzzFeed appear to show that the White House knew shortly after the crash Thursday that there were not 23 Americans aboard the plane, as had been widely reported on Thursday.
President Barack Obama made very brief remarks about the crash on Thursday afternoon before a pre-planned speech in Delaware.
‘Obviously the world is watching reports of a downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border. And it looks like it may be a terrible tragedy. Right now we’re working to determine whether there were American citizens on board. That is our first priority,’ he said.
It is tragic that this young man was on the Malaysian MH17 plane and now gone.
If this were so many of our families, we would hate to have our children identified as a US citizen at all, let alone a possible pawn, a pretext for aggressive posturing towards Russia, (and a possible reason to go to war).
Quinn Lucas Schansman’s citizenship status would be like the many others: “Accidental Americans” born in the US but who left with their other citizenship parents as infants or young children to live in other countries — raised in and with the cultural identity of the country still lived in. From the above news article:
[Quinn’s family is from Hilversum (the Netherlands) in the north of the country. It was not immediately clear where his family was from in the United States.]
Was Quinn in the count of those who died from the Netherlands?
There is a report that the US State Department has been instructed to look over the passenger manifest with a fine-tooth comb to see if there are any further dual citizens.
‘The Animal’ (who sent this to me) and I can see the ramifications for our own children. We know as we have been told:
“You are American until we tell you you aren’t”
My children and The Animal and his US-born wife’s children were born in Canada (but to US citizen(s) – how hard would it be to pin that US citizenship label on them?
This (I think exploitative) news story gives even more reason to have only citizenship we want to be identified with, excluding automatic “dual” U.S. citizenship status passed on to our children. With the qualifications to be able to claim such, should they not have that choice to make when they are adults and with ‘requisite mental capacity’ to be able to do so? Until then, hands off labeling our children.
[I have to ask myself, “If it were my child born and raised in Canada that was the victim of such a tragedy, would I want him or her identified as a US citizen or even a dual “US/Canada” citizen?” My answer to myself is “NO”. Others, though, might wish that US/Canadian duality highlighted in some news story. Interesting question to ask ourselves.]
Or, at least that’s the way I see it.
@George,
When I die, the LAST thing I want to be remembered as is ‘an American abiding in Canada’.
And, I certainly hope the Dutch government would not refer to Quinn as “A US citizen who happens to reside in the Netherlands.” That would be a gross insult to his memory and to his family. I don’t think it would. (However, that is how *US Persons* in Canada are now described by the Harper government.)
And, I certainly like your point, George, ‘where is the media on Alex Ploeg, Daisy Risah, Tim Renker and all of the others who were Quinn’s fellow countrymen?’. I must agree with you. The news articles and headlines regarding the tragedy of this young person’s death, to me, were US sensationalism.
Thank you, WhiteKat and George.
@KalC, with all due respect as you are an important and respected Brocker.
Your initial gut reaction was like my own but when I thought about it further to not expose this further would have dishonored Quinns fellow countrymen and Quinn himself who for all purposes has shown himself to want to be considered Dutch.
When someone calls me “American” I correct them on the spot.
Further, in the European spectrum of things the Dutch are one of the least in being tolerant to multi-nationality. They generally subscribe that you can only have a single loyalty.
@Calgary…..
It is extremely likely that Quinns family will want his remains brought back to the Netherlands for burial or cremation.
Would Quinns immediate family prefer that he be brought back by the USG or by EU authorities?
Would Quinns immediate family likely be honored or repulsed if his body was brought back draped by the flag of the US?
Last I looked, I have one dominant nationality by choice, one clinging that does not let go and two other clinging nationalities who do not really care about me or me about them.
In a tragic situation, what flag would I want over my remains to bring me home? I know the answer to that.
Your question may be one we should ask ourselves — to check in on what we consider our dominant nationality.
Although I never gave it a lot of thought before, good or bad, I now think that dual nationality / citizenship is a bad idea. What, really, is its purpose?
Thank you for your reference to the Convention on Certain Questions Relating to the Conflict of Nationality Law. Here is one place to read about it for anyone, like me: http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6b3b00.html
@Calgary, I thank Petros for turning me on to that line of thinking. The problem was that he was doing serious thinking on the subject when no one really cared.
Let me take your comment ” I now think that dual nationality / citizenship is a bad idea. What, really, is its purpose?” but with a further twist.
Dual nationality in the absence of the “Convention on Certain Questions Relating to the Conflict of Nationality Law” is a bad idea.
Read that through and think about it.
I am fortunate to live in and be a citizen of a signatory country. Unfortunately Canada unsigned its signature!
If Canada resigned and better yet the US signed, all the problems we face would likely go away.
A Dutch Citizen resident in Holland if asked “What is your nationality?” could only answer with one answer that being Netherlands. However if they were asked, “What other countries consider you to be one of their nationals?” may in fact have a longer list.
Dual citizenship without multi-lateral understandings simply can not work. Its not simply a bad idea it is an unworkable idea. The cited convention goes a long way to fixing that and I would urge you to bring this to the attention of MPs in Ottawa.
Why would Canada not be willing to resign this international agreement?
I happen to think if Canada was to resign Post-FATCA that would cause fatal cracks in the IGA with Canada, at least with respect to Canadian Citizens.
What poor taste is it? KalC?
Is it us pointing out the fact that this young man is a Dutch man who travelled on a Dutch passport while the United States is trying to make an example of this man by proclaiming him as American, when Quinn emigrated from the United States with his family when he was five years old?
I actually would say that the US is posturing in poor taste “borrowing tragedy” when they actually don’t have a legitimate claim…to push their own agenda in the Ukraine.
Which is more tasteless. Us pointing out a fact or the USG pushing their agenda for aggressive posturing?
@ George – I agree wholeheartedly!
The problem is that you are using this man’s death for your purposes without his family’s permission. You don’t yet KNOW whether or not he identified himself as a dual citizen. You merely assume that he didn’t. Sorry, that’s not good enough.
KalC,
If I’m seen to be using this young man’s death for my purposes without his family’s permission, I apologize to them and to you. I mean no disrespect and know nothing about how they or their son identified themselves.
Mine is assumption and mine is comparison to what I would feel in such a case were this my son (and what other the parents of “accidental Americans” or “accidental Americans” themselves MIGHT feel). That feeling for me would have been ‘I’ve been exploited by the US’ in their vast media coverage for the one ‘American’ victim in this tragic happening when he used his Dutch passport, no passing reference to him having lived most of his life in the Netherlands. I would NOT want my son’s “US citizenship” used that way, pretty much erasing that other citizenship.
Just my feelings on the coverage and may be the feelings of many others reading here. I know it is not yours, KalC.
@KalC,
Sorry that’s not good enough.
The young man is referred to as an “AMERICAN killed in MH17 tragedy” in the headline, and the very first words of the first paragraph are, “A 19-year-old AMERICAN citizen who has been confirmed killed aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight…”, yet he spent most of his life in Holland. Even when his dual citizenship is referenced (after the emphasis on American in the headline and first paragraph) it is with the US part of the dual first – US-Dutch citizen.
As someone who spent most of her life in Canada, I can attest that one does not think of themselves as ‘American’, just based on physical birth in USA. It is highly unlikely, although we will never know for sure, that this young man did not either. How could he? He grew up in the Netherlands, went to school there, had friends there, and a life there.
The article written by AMERICAN reporters, makes it clear that his US citizenship trumps any other, otherwise the young Dutch man (notice he is not referred to as this anywhere in the article) would have been referred to as a ‘Dutch citizen’ who happened to have been born in the USA, or a ‘Dutch-US’ citizen as opposed to a ‘US-Dutch’ citizen, or a ‘Dutch citizen with American roots’.
Do you really think that this emphasis on his ‘Americanism’ with a side note to let the reader know that he just happened to have lived almost his whole life in the Netherlands, was his parents idea? I’ve talked to a few journalists, and I know that they write what THEY want to write in order to attract readers – in this case American readers.
And even if this young man’s unfortunate parents are not bothered by, or even encourage, the emphasis on his ‘American’ citizenship, the underlying current is still there in the tone of the article for all the readers whether American, Dutch, Canadian, Chinese, or whatever – that birth on US soil trumps any other citizenship. We see this over and over again, in many articles, not just those that are US based.
Presuming that American citizenship trumps all others is tactless, not Calgary411’s post.
@Kalc
I think it is rude and hurtful for you to suggest that Calgary411 is “using this man’s death for [her] purposes without his family’s permission.” Her first words in this post were: “It is tragic that this young man was on the Malaysian MH17 plane and now gone” which shows where her first thoughts and respect lie – i.e. regarding the tragedy of this young man’s death, however there is nothing wrong with her making note in a post at Brock of the article’s undercurrent message (though not the main theme of the article) that ‘US citizenship trumps all’.
Reported in Australia the talk is of citizens, permanent residents, and those ‘who call Australia home.’ So with this formula the citizenship totals could be greater than those on the aircraft, or claimed by different countries.
In terms of the person in question. Yes, or no, does the person have U.S. citizenship? That is the answer.
Is the U.S. trying to exploit this incidental American? It appears the U.S. response has been relatively timid thus far to the geopolitical situation. They are not declaring war over it. It might be kind of along the lines of the ‘take a step back’ theme in terms of letting other countries get involved.
One view of it they may be saying something like “we are in the same boat too.” So according to the American tally do they count as if either or, as in they may be reducing from the Dutch numbers?
Interesting revelation relating to the theme of accidental Americans resident in Canada. Whenever there is an international disaster there appears to always be this citizenship scorecard that the press seeks out.
I don’t believe there is any injustice here. It should not take away from our focus on the real injustices of the U.S. Government in regards to USP abroad. Should there be a listing of these injustices on this website kept easily accessible?
While we can’t know for sure, it’s very likely that this young man self-identified Dutch and only that given that he presented himself as Dutch via his passport and because of the information we have about how the Dutch view dual nationality.
As to Canada “unsigning” the Convention on Certain Questions Relating to the Conflict of Nationality Law, I don’t know when the signing or the unsigning occurred but could the latter have something to do with our courts forcing the government to allow dual citizenship? It’s my understanding that until the late 70’s, we didn’t allow dual citizenship and the courts frowned.
I have stated before, and continue to believe, that Canadians tolerate duality but mostly are suspicious of those who keep citizenship in their countries of birth. It’s tolerated if it’s done for family reason but mostly, native Canadians would prefer that immigrants shed old loyalties and thrown in totally with Canada.
Until I became an immigrant and embarked on becoming a Canadian, I never gave it much thought but dual citizenship is unworkable if both countries have equal expectations of allegiance. It simply cannot work.
And on a final note, my daughter was four when she came to Canadian. She is indignant when she is referred to as an American. She didn’t grow up there and considers it a foreign country, which she mostly finds puzzling because as she says now and again. “They aren’t like us, Mom.” And she is only 12. Quinn Schansman was a young adult. I can’t imagine that he felt American and probably regarded it, as my daughter does, as a curious fact of her birth but one that has nothing to do with her identity.
I don’t think Calgary411 was trying to usurp Mr. Schansman or use him in any way. He is, unfortunately, just an example of how the USG regards us as property. I doubt that his family is aware of the USG’s co-opting his death to score cheap politic points. Pointing this out is not using him, imo.
First they (a Ukrainian official – connected with trying to pull US indignation onboard) said 23 Americans died on board MH17.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696838/Fears-Americans-died-MH71-crash-State-department-investigates-agency-report-23-US-citizens-aboard-flight-shot-Ukraine.html
Then the USG found only one (who presented a Dutch Passport) after State Department dug in to find his “clinging” US citizenship. Tell me who’s co-opting his death to make a point? Yeah…I think the USG is finding any excuse to “borrow tragedy”.
McCain shooting off his mouth regarding MH17. http://nypost.com/2014/07/18/hell-to-pay-if-russia-linked-to-mh17-crash-mccain/
So WHO is using MH17 and the innocent victims for their own gain?
Another FATCA outrage? Should dual duals serving and dying for the Israeli army be subject to FATCA?
WELL two that’s the situatiion the families of two Israeli soldiers recently killed in Gaza are in.
Rest in peace passengers of MH17.
The US must have simply seen that this young man had a US birthplace and assumed he was an American. What’s the likelihood that they might have check for a CLN? One of the many things I find personally disturbing about this is that had this plane been headed to the US this young man may have been travelling on a US passport, as required by US law. I travel to the US on a US passport only.
@Bubblebustin – Same here my blue book sits and collects dust unless I make a trip to the US. Otherwise I travel on my EU passport for everywhere else.
In fact if you go to Brazil on a US Passport, you must pay $160 for a tourist visa. If I go on my EU passport, there’s no visa required, zero to pay for a 90 day stay.
@ Don (RE the 2 Israeli soldiers being subject to FATCA)
Can you provide the source of this info? Can you send it to the Canadian Jewish News?
I’ve been trying to get the CJN to include an article about this issue, mainly because the large proportion of Rabbi’s here in Canada have come up from the US, so will be effected. Also, there are +++ many US “citizens” in Israel (I think there is actually an office of the IRS now set up there to “help” with filing). Further,, in the more observant Jewish communities here, many marriages are arranged from other similarly observant communities in the US (leaving the couple with one “US-tainted and FATCAed member).
But the CJN (and the Toronto Council of Rabbis) hasn’t shown any interest in FATCA as far as I’ve seen. So if you can further the cause in that direction……. 🙂
LM and Don,
From:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-names-moshe-malko-20-as-seventh-slain-soldier/
The other six soldiers whose names have been released are: Maj. Tsafrir Baror, 32, of Holon; Capt. Tsvi Kaplan, 28, of Kibbutz Meirav; Sgt. Gilad Yacoby, 21, of Kiryat Ono; Sgt. Oz Mendelovich, 21, of Atzmon; Sgt. Sean Carmeli, 21, of Ra’anana; and Max Steinberg of Beersheba. The latter two, Carmeli and Steinberg, hail from Texas and California, respectively.
Also:
http://news.yahoo.com/two-soldiers-killed-fighting-israel-grew-u-022303888.html
From another article in Times of Israel, Carmeli has lived in Israel since 2009, when he was 16. Yahoo says that Steinberg moved to Israel in 3012. I’m sure that U. S.taxes were the last thing on their minds, but their parents still live in the U.S. and might have known about FATCA. Also, FATCA has been in the Israeli press recently. I doubt that either Carmeli or Steinberg had any significant financial assets in Israel, and I doubt that the IRS will pursue FATCA-related claims over such a small estate, unless their parents had been sending them lots of money.
An article in the CJN could turn into a platform for the many financial professionals advertising there to explain, in interviews, that they can help Americans or “duals” to simply and easily comply with their “obligations”. Since the CJN doesn’t publish many letters, there wouldn’t be much of an opportunity to correct misinformation.
The new editor might be more approachable than the former staff; good luck!
@Queenston
Thanks for this reply. I agree that these soldiers probably have little that the IRS would be concerned about, but it is still noteworthy that they, too, will be having their private financial records looked over by the USA while they are MIA.
Your point is well taken about professionals advertising their services. I’ll have to think about re-approaching the CJN. I was, however, really surprised/disappointed by the total non-response to my lengthy letter (with hyperlinks to a well-written article) from the (I think it was 5) Chief Toronto Rabbi’s. So much for my “tribe” …..
Sasha,
You haven’t had an answer to your question from Don, so I’ll just weigh in with my thoughts.
No one knows of course just what the U.S. will do in any scenario, but what an easy mark would be contacting all “dual citizens” who hold U.S. passports. They would already have that information on hand in their databases. The first contacts may not be threats, but to ignore any such correspondence would, in my opinion, be foolhardy.
Others may disagree with what I might surmise.
Sasha,
Quinn Lucas Schansman was born in the USA. I doubt it would have been a difficult task to run a computer search for that name in US birth records (and on all other names of those who perished on Fight MH17).
Sasha,
Calgary411 is correct. And think about it, there was a Canadian on board too and the Canadian press knew about it and published stories on him in short order.
There is nothing sinister about what the US media and the USG is doing, but it is a reminder that dual citizenship is not some benign state of being. It carries consequences.
@ calgary411
Thanks so much for your thoughts. My hope is that the passport office database is outdated . . . especially if a passport has not been renewed. Do you think the CRA would hand over the updated contact info. if asked by the IRS.
In reference to your statement, “The first contacts may not be threats, but to ignore any such correspondence would, in my opinion, be foolhardy.” . . . I am wondering why this would be foolhardy given that Canada has said they will not collect for the IRS?