Internal White House emails obtained by BuzzFeed appear to show that the White House knew shortly after the crash Thursday that there were not 23 Americans aboard the plane, as had been widely reported on Thursday.
President Barack Obama made very brief remarks about the crash on Thursday afternoon before a pre-planned speech in Delaware.
‘Obviously the world is watching reports of a downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border. And it looks like it may be a terrible tragedy. Right now we’re working to determine whether there were American citizens on board. That is our first priority,’ he said.
It is tragic that this young man was on the Malaysian MH17 plane and now gone.
If this were so many of our families, we would hate to have our children identified as a US citizen at all, let alone a possible pawn, a pretext for aggressive posturing towards Russia, (and a possible reason to go to war).
Quinn Lucas Schansman’s citizenship status would be like the many others: “Accidental Americans” born in the US but who left with their other citizenship parents as infants or young children to live in other countries — raised in and with the cultural identity of the country still lived in. From the above news article:
[Quinn’s family is from Hilversum (the Netherlands) in the north of the country. It was not immediately clear where his family was from in the United States.]
Was Quinn in the count of those who died from the Netherlands?
There is a report that the US State Department has been instructed to look over the passenger manifest with a fine-tooth comb to see if there are any further dual citizens.
‘The Animal’ (who sent this to me) and I can see the ramifications for our own children. We know as we have been told:
“You are American until we tell you you aren’t”
My children and The Animal and his US-born wife’s children were born in Canada (but to US citizen(s) – how hard would it be to pin that US citizenship label on them?
This (I think exploitative) news story gives even more reason to have only citizenship we want to be identified with, excluding automatic “dual” U.S. citizenship status passed on to our children. With the qualifications to be able to claim such, should they not have that choice to make when they are adults and with ‘requisite mental capacity’ to be able to do so? Until then, hands off labeling our children.
[I have to ask myself, “If it were my child born and raised in Canada that was the victim of such a tragedy, would I want him or her identified as a US citizen or even a dual “US/Canada” citizen?” My answer to myself is “NO”. Others, though, might wish that US/Canadian duality highlighted in some news story. Interesting question to ask ourselves.]
Or, at least that’s the way I see it.
The Malaysia Airlines Manifest lists Mr. Quinn Schansman’s Nationality as Netherlands (only). This most likely means that he was flying on his Dutch passport.
Thanks, Innocente. I wonder if he even had a US passport? Perhaps, yes; perhaps, no?
http://bit.ly/WkWkeK
Passenger Manifest page from Malaysia Airlines showing Quinn Schansman flying on a Dutch passport.
Obama says US State Department looking for further victims with ties to the United States via dual citizenship. “Obama said American officials are still working through the passenger list to determine if any other Americans were on board. However, the State Department said no one checked into the flight using an American passport.” – quote from Denver Channel article.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/u-s-world/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-at-least-one-american-killed-on-mh17-quinn-lucas-schansman
Full passenger manifest list can be found at the article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/18/victims-flight-mh370/12839271/
It’s disgraceful the US is using Quinn as a pawn to hammer Putin.
At the end of the day the US is only going to pay out a lousy $250 Social Security Death Benefit if anyone bothers applying.
I’m sure Quinn wouldn’t be happy with Dutch banks giving him the FATCA grilling.
@ Don
Not only a FATCA grilling but, now, a grab for estate taxes (and all those penalties for not filing FBARs in the past 25 years). Disgusting!
I don’t want to go to war and neither does Putin. Obama and Putin are good friends and soul mates when it comes to their idols. They are both Marxists and potential dictators. They will posture and bluster against each other and have a friendly talk on the phone.
There is no danger of this, but if I were suddenly President of the USA, I’d immediately send two divisions of special forces to each NATO country and I’d invite every former Soviet sat. country to join NATO even if they don’t qualify to join.
OH you say I wouldn’t have two divisions of special forces to send, but if I were president I would have them. You think I wouldn’t because Obama doesn’t, but I would because if you are weak the world and even the weak countries, pick on you, but if you ae strong they all leave you alone.
Just think of your time in school. The big bully always picked on the weak, but he always left the big strong jocks alone and if a weakling suddenly turned on him with a baseball bat, he went sniviling home to his mother, yes he did.
So if we had demonstrated that Russia couldn’t push us around, Putin and his, ”Old KGB Colonel”, buddy wouldn’t have shot down a helpless passenger plane.
We have mostly been attacked when the attacker thought we were too weak to resist and when we were strong they left us alone, so two division of special forces to every country bordering the New Soviet Union and watch Putin the old KGB Agent, snivel.
@LM – Well the Netherlands was one of five stupid countries to sign a Mutual Collection Assistance Requests (MCAR). So in theory if Quinn was wealthy the IRS could try to move against him.
Wouldn’t make great headlines for the US, “IRS goes after MH17 tragedy victim.”
Please don’t fall for Western propaganda re: the unfortunate Flight MH17. At least consider what is contained in the article below.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-plane-crash-lies-and-sinister-political-agenda-by-the-west/5391913
Quin Schansman was only 19 years old so I seriously doubt he had any assets which would be of interest to the IRS but what I find annoying is that he was automatically labeled American. This young man was Dutch with a clinging other nationality, pure and simple.
Don – I note that Canada is also one of those countries that signed as well. Just out of curiosity, is this the basis for collection of US taxes and/or FBAR fines from US citizens (not dual Canadian) residing in Canada? Fortunately, there are only 5 countries listed that signed the MCAR)
@Steve – It’s been said on this blog that if you were a Canadian citizen at the time the US Tax liability took place, then the CRA won’t assist the US. You may want to double check.
However there is a distinction between criminal and civil penalties. FBAR is a civil penalty to my knowledge. It’s similar to a traffic ticket. Yes they can arrest you into a US court, but if you can pay you can’t pay. Not filing an FBAR may result in a penalty, but not jail time to the best of my knowledge.
Yes the government could go down the road and take you to court for not filing, false tax returns etc etc etc, but at this point nobody is going to jail over not filing FBARs.
Now how is the US going to collect civil penalties abroad? I’m not sure MCARs include FBAR fines. Only think it’s more to do with collecting taxes.
With FATCA society needs to answer the following:
Should Resident Citizen’s data be sent to a foreign government whether they’re a dual citizen or not?
The US is trying very hard to make paying US taxes some kind of responsibility of citizenship (like military service). However where their argument falls down is the US wants its cake and eat it too. The US doesn’t have the right to collect taxes from expats abroad and skim when you take off FEIE and foreign tax credit when the US provides zero payment for government services.
It was once said ‘all politics are local.’ Well ‘all taxation is local’ and there’s a ship in Boston Harbour that proves that.
Wilton, save us the “We’re the big Americans and we’ll pummel Russia” schtick. You know damned well it’s not going to work. The response would be 1.2MT missiles landing on American cities. The best thing the United States can do is stay out of this. Schansman identified himself as Dutch. Americans have NO dog in the fight with regards to MH-17.
Relevant quotes from Opinio Juris blog, for the next time the Homelanders start going on about “The Protection of the United States Embassy/Military/Flag”
And this one by Peter Spiro:
http://opiniojuris.org/2014/03/07/russias-citizenship-power-play-ukraine-pretty-weak/
Oops, link for the first quote
http://opiniojuris.org/2014/03/09/ukraine-insta-symposium-crisis-crimea-protection-nationals-abroad-legality-ukraines-possible-use-force-self-defense/
On a different note, at least some obituary writers respect the rights of individuals not to identify with their country of birth. E.g. when Korean musicologist Alan Heyman passed away a few months ago, all the English & Korean obituaries identified him as Korean, not American (after all, he did renounce his U.S. citizenship to naturalise in South Korea):
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/issues/2014/03/178_152651.html
http://www.yonhapnews.co.kr/society/2014/03/02/0701000000AKR20140302034751004.HTML
This is repugnant in so many ways.
At best, he was a “Dutch Citizen with clinging US Nationality.”
If this young man considered himself “American” he would have been flying with US Documents and presented himself to the airline as such.
I am sure there are some on that list who had “clinging Irish, Polish or German nationality.”
Is Ireland, Poland, or Germany clamoring to find those deceased?
This all goes back to the only place on earth that refers to people as “half Dutch” or “One quarter Polish” which is absolutely nonsense.
Even if I had not performed a US voluntary relinquishing act and considered myself a citizenship polygamous, you can only have one “Acting Nationality” at any time.
But the USA never subscribed and signed the “Convention on Certain Questions Relating to the Conflict of Nationality Law.”
Too bad Canada denounced its signing…….that should be another political effort in Canada to resign as it would or should solve lots of problems.
I think I saw an earlier post that the young Dutchman on this flight used his Dutch passport. If true, how would the U.S. have discovered he was a dual citizen? Do they automatically go through their huge data base every time there is a disaster to determine if someone might have clinging U.S. citizenship?
The US still has a low percentage of people actually holding passports. The percentage around the next is about 33%.
If you look at the UK, for example, it’s between 70% and 80%. So Old Blighty with 1/5 of the population has about 50M passport holders v the US about 100M.
Americans continue to be under travelled.
@ Don,
Do you think there’s a chance the IRS will track down all their dual citizens who hold U.S. passports – ie, data mine the 100M U.S. passport holders who live offshore – and threaten them with fines, penalties etc. for not being complaint.
Sorry Carol, I think this thread is in very poor taste. IBS shouldn’t try to make some sort of political statement from this tragic event.
This and some of the other rants are only likely to turn away potential viewers and donors.
I’m sorry you feel that way, KalC. I take full responsibility for it — not Isaac Brock Society. Shall I take it down or put it in a less obvious place?
The post was to show how easily we could be identified as something we may not identify as. This young man checked onto a plane with his Netherlands passport as my son would have with a Canadian passport. I’m glad he was counted in the Netherlands’ tragic death toll.
RIP, Quinn Lucas Schansman, citizen of the world.
@Calgary411, and KalC
I don’t think it is in poor taste at all. In fact, the thought never even occurred to me to consider it as such until I read Kalc’s comment.
Calgary411 is just stating the obvious: American citizenship trumps all other citizenships regardless of the circumstances. This has to change.
The death of this young DUTCH man was tragic of course, as were the deaths of all those poor passengers. This post does not detract from that.
I concur with WhiteKat.
The USG datamined what is in fact clinging nationality to suit its own purposes which may include war and other forms of aggression.
The poor taste is on the part of the USG.
To be brutally honest, I would not want to be identified in a manner like this by the USG. That is a strong statement coming from me which Calgary may understand.
Quinn died a tragic death, he was a Dutch National and held himself out to the world like that. The media and USG is holding Quinn up to something else which there is no indication he wanted.
It was very poor taste and disrespectful of the USG and the media to float this story.
@George. Agreed. The USG it the one being disrespectful here, just like it is being disrespectful to 1 million Canadians it says are ‘US persons’ and thus by extension, ‘US tax evaders’.
One more thing, Quinn left this world in the company of many of his Countrymen. Yes, his countrymen are nationals of the Netherlands.
When the media writes articles about Quinn singling him out solely because he is an accidental american what does that make of his 100 plus countrymen who do not have full splash media attention?
Where is the media on Alex Ploeg?
Where is the media on Daisy Risah?
Where is the media on Tim Renker?
Where is the media on all of Quinns Countrymen?
What will the USG do next for Quinn? Provide a burial with a US Flag? A moment of silence in the US Senate?
The USG could care less about Quinn, he is simply a tool. If there had been “pure blood” Americans in abundance on board, they would have never mentioned Quinn, period.
Quinn is a useful tool for the USG because he is all they have to use and yes its to use.
@Whitekat, yes they are writting the rules and IMPOSING their “great gift” upon you/us/others.
Here is the simple way to settle this, Quinn is a citizen of the Netherlands.
Quinn was duly resident in the Netherlands.
Quinn was traveling from the Netherlands and presented himself to authorities as a citizen of the Netherlands.
His Government (the Netherlands) is a signatory of the Convention on Certain Questions Relating to the Conflict of Nationality Law.
HIS Government in signing this international document believes “Being convinced that it is in the general interest of the international community to secure that all its members should recognise that every person should have a nationality and should have one nationality only.”
The Netherlands does NOT consider Quinn to be anything other than Dutch!