I note and smile at your name change. And I agree with George’s more realistic view.
My understanding is that as of this month you need only file returns for the last 3 years in order to become compliant.
@Neill, @George, and @Calgary, they may assess fines but are they actually going to be able to easily collect them is the $64,000 question. I am getting myself worried sick even though I’ve renounced and it’s ridiculous. I am feeling more fatalistic every day; I’ve done the best I can to try to resolve my situation and that’s all I can do.
I need to take a step back and try to enjoy the summer. I just can’t see how they’re going to have the resources to actually effectively chase very expat living abroad. It would create too many diplomatic incidents. I agree they will probably send out warnings and even could assess fines but will they be able to effectively grab the retirement savings of Canadians?
With a million US persons in Canada, the Trojan horse effect would bring down the economy. It could cause major economic sanctions back against the US and thus backfire badly for them. I suspect that many will just throw the IRS correspondence into the trash.
@Moaner1776, “It seems common sense that they will thus , at least initially, focus on egregious cases involving huge accounts.”
I used to have that happen but after much thought realized they were my rose coloured glasses.
Most of the FATCA reporting will be “nil reports.” Why? Look at the 77,000 list and you realize these are not client based firms.
Next, “our” definition of egregious is different than a homelander!!
Lastly, it will be more costly and time consuming to send out nice nice warning and information/obligation letters. They will have all the data they need to send a request for payment or explanation if you disagree.
When you think about this in IT terms its actually pretty easy to digest what is a drop in the bucket amount of information compared to what they are used to processing.
Further, I have no doubt that certain members of US Congress will do an excel analysis of all the Canadian Tax Cheats, living the good life in WaWa, Winnipeg and other place names with W who actually owe the homeland a gazillion dollars in tax. penalty and interest.
FATCA isn’t about taxes. It’s about information, control and punishment.
Even Roy Berg says FATCA is a “data grab.”
@George, Like I say, I agree they will send out letters assessing monies owed but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ll be able to directly seize it from a Canadian savings account, especially from a local credit union that’s non-reporting and deemed compliant. They’d have to subsequently pursue the fines through the Canadian or other countries’ courts. It would costs the IRS too much money unless it was an egregious case involving huge accounts.
Realistically the IRS would have to be happy enough to settle out of court.
If things gets really ugly, I’ve warned my parents that I might not be able to continue visiting them but I’m reasonably optimistic that I’ll still be able to….plus, if the US gets really nasty, I’m sure that they’ll be some tilt for tat. I worry but I think you worry even more than I!!
@Moaner1776, you should enjoy the summer or the five days of summer you will actually get. 😉
The question is if the USG will “jump the shark.” I think they will;
Why do I think this?
When you read the IGA template, it was written by more than one individual. One person wrote with concern of the expat. The other wrote in the spirit of the Nuremberg Laws.
The IGA template jumped the shark by even breathing “indica” and “place of birth.” Thats the achilis heel of the whole thing. Going after duals, non documented relinquishers and accidentals was the bridge too far.
With the USG having gone that far and being in possession of address information, it will be impossible to resist sending out requests for payment.
Remember the parable;
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion
says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”
People in BC can open an account here: If this place turns anyone in I can guarantee that there are no places left to turn.
CCEC is a single branch credit union on Commercial Drive. It was founded by Vancouver’s self-help community including co-ops and not-for-profit groups to meet their financial needs. Our goal is Economic democracy. We live that goal by treating our members with respect and dignity and remembering the co-operative principles on which we were founded. Our members are individuals and groups, businesses and activists. We specialize in providing banking services to everyone – without judgment and without discrimination. At CCEC, you can align your values with your finances.
@Moaner1776, ” They’d have to subsequently pursue the fines through the Canadian or other countries’ courts. It would costs the IRS too much money unless it was an egregious case involving huge accounts.”
I concur with that.
There are only five countries that the USA has a mutual collection treaty with. Canada is one of them and its limited.
Documented relinquishers are out of the picture other than inconvenience.
Undocumented relinquishers and accidentals will be uncollectible. But…….they will be prohibited from entering the US or it will be stupid of them to enter.
US Expats and Duals wearing the red white and blue are stuffed. They will likely face non-renewal of a US Passport or with respect to a uni-USA Expat, they will get a limited validity passport to return to the US.
Thats what the tea leafs look like.
@George, I agree it’s really scary; we’ll just have to wait and see. All I can think is of how relieved I am that I renounced. I’ve moved most of my investments into a deemed compliant pension fund and ISA. I believe these are also non-reporting. May transfer the rest of my cash savings to my British husband and/or buy some physical gold.
What more can I do. I no longer have any money in the States. I feel sorry for my fellow expat friends; I’ve frequently warned them about FATCA but they think I wear a tin foiled hat. In the meantime I’ll drink Stella and eat popcorn.
@Blaze “FATCA isn’t about taxes. It’s about information, control and punishment. ”
Its also a power tool to deflect problems politically.
Just think what that first data dump is going to show to an enterprising young aide to a US Senator?
Just think of the suppossed BILLIONS in lost tax, penalty and interest.
With that spreadsheet, you push for FATCA 2 which is a collection treaty subject to a 30% penalty or higher.
Remember, Brockers are living “Life of the Rich and Famous” sipping their Labatts. 😉
@George, and Stella’s 😀
@Moaner, “but they think I wear a tin foiled hat.”
I started getting better reception with Tesco tin foil than Asda brand. 😉
Yes, I find myself running into oblivious expats all the time now. Non US compliant, nearing retirement, happy with ILR instead of citizenship and oblivious.
@Moaner, are you still wondering what the society has on its records for you? Do you have online access? Yes/No
bdwight,
Three years to become compliant and then to continue to be compliant forever more — or find your way out of the absurdity.
Yes, “moaner”, you do need to enjoy your summer. You have done all you can do, so take your own good advice.
Or, we can take our pick of others thoughts on worry:
He who fears he shall suffer, already suffers what he fears. ~Michel de Montaigne
I highly recommend worrying. It is much more effective than dieting. ~William Powell
I refuse to be burdened by vague worries. If something wants to worry me, it will have to make itself clear. ~Robert Brault
Worrying is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do, but it gets you nowhere. ~Glenn Turner
I’ve developed a new philosophy… I only dread one day at a time. ~Charlie Brown
The worst case is dead people.
Simple, everyday dead from stress, heart attacks or strokes brought on by worry, or bankruptcy, or the heartbreak of not being there for your own parents as they reach the end of their own lives.
Dramatic dead at the hands of terrorists or criminals who have seized or extorted lists of U.S. Persons from banks, insurance companies or governments and yanked their victims out of their beds at night. The luckier ones may be merely held hostage until someone decides their lives are worth more than Uncle Sam thinks they are.
The architects of FATCA will eventually have more than figurative blood on their hands.
@Deckard: I know personally of people who were at one time very active here who are experiencing very serious health problems that they believe are directly linked to the stress of all of this.
I also know of honest people who have worked hard all their lives to save for their retirement or kids’ education who have contemplated suicide.
To US Treasury, we are all simply tax cheating myths. Even worse is our own elected Cons and Finance Canada seem to share that view of one million “American citizens abiding in Canada,”
AFAIK, at least the Americans weren’t making jokes and laughing about a mentally disabled citizen and his seventy year old mother who has tried to provide for him. They were too busy making sure he paid his “fair share” to a country where he has never lived from money paid to him from the country where he was born and lives.
@Blaze
Very good points. Even the contemplation of suicide over FATCA and FBAR and OVDI is evidence that something is terribly, terribly wrong.
And, yes, the governments of what used to be considered two of the world’s most advanced and compassionate nations now appear to be competing in a race to the bottom of the well of human decency. Pathetic.
What has been shown to happen. The IRS has released personal information to people who are your adversaries. if they don’t like you they will do whatever they want to do.
The IRS cannot be reformed unless tax returns have all the personal information redacted and without a court order from the country of origin before they can even find the personal information.
Now we all know the IRS will never relinquish their egotistical power to ruin lives and hurt people of a different political belief.
I agree with the worst case being dead people. Add suicides to the list.
If the FATCA train is allowed to continue unchecked, I have no doubt there will be deaths.
Also, people suffering from physical illnesses & depression brought on by the stress.
What I think the IRS will do is send a nice letter with a penalty attached. The letter gives you a carrot that you can contact the IRS with your explanation of innocence & how you are coming into compliance and therefore penalties might be waived for you. Otherwise you need to pay the penalty because you were non-compliant & you still are expected to become compliant anyway. This will be the warning shot letter because if you ignore it, your penalties will significantly increase because then you will be deemed to be willfully non-compliant. You will have a very tight deadline to pay up or contact them before the penalty increases. The IRS won’t have success with all their letters but that doesn’t matter. As long as some people get scared into submitting, it will be worth it for them.
My response to the IRS is what the Greeks said to the Persians at Thermopylae in 480 BC : “Molon Labe” — Come and take you Fascists bastards!!
@Benedict Arnold – right on!
Has anybody thought about the possibility that if Canada gave in to America`s blackmail once, it might do so again? I mean, you have all been promised that Canada will not collect money for the IRS. But who is to say if America won’t wield a big stick again and with its power- get more concessions from other countries in the future? Who is to say that America will stop here? ( I KNOW- the thought is very upsetting- but this thread asks for “worst”.)
kbella says: Can you not just [put] all accounts in your spouses name if they are Canadian?
On this rare occasion, response is made to this item, as merely one sad instance of the panicked dodge subgenre that routinely soap-operas on the Brock channel — and brings far more stigma to the nonexistent “Brock brand” that the wingiest excommunicated ranting ever could.
First two specifics. [For purposes of thought experiment, set aside the a priori fact of being a noncompliant US person.] (1) If amounts are significant, their “transfer” will exceed the limits on unreported gifting. (2) Taking such an action will go a long long way toward establishing willfulness in attempting to “hide” assets.
Then one generality. Perhaps the most prevalent panicked dodge is believing that an account shift (with or without splittings) from bank to credit union can “hide” assets.
As Little Richard likes to wail, “Slippin an a-slidin, peepin an a-hidin …” And in the distance, the IRS lurks, ready to dub over on “I won’t be your fool no more.”
Compliance condors have to love circling high above self-diggers sweating like crazy to shovel out shelters that show so little promise of keeping their bones from being picked clean. Knowing that when the gig is up, they’ll really have a chance to swoop down on a big chunk of seriously infested meat.
Moaner1776 (formerly monalisa),
I note and smile at your name change. And I agree with George’s more realistic view.
My understanding is that as of this month you need only file returns for the last 3 years in order to become compliant.
@Neill, @George, and @Calgary, they may assess fines but are they actually going to be able to easily collect them is the $64,000 question. I am getting myself worried sick even though I’ve renounced and it’s ridiculous. I am feeling more fatalistic every day; I’ve done the best I can to try to resolve my situation and that’s all I can do.
I need to take a step back and try to enjoy the summer. I just can’t see how they’re going to have the resources to actually effectively chase very expat living abroad. It would create too many diplomatic incidents. I agree they will probably send out warnings and even could assess fines but will they be able to effectively grab the retirement savings of Canadians?
With a million US persons in Canada, the Trojan horse effect would bring down the economy. It could cause major economic sanctions back against the US and thus backfire badly for them. I suspect that many will just throw the IRS correspondence into the trash.
@Moaner1776, “It seems common sense that they will thus , at least initially, focus on egregious cases involving huge accounts.”
I used to have that happen but after much thought realized they were my rose coloured glasses.
Most of the FATCA reporting will be “nil reports.” Why? Look at the 77,000 list and you realize these are not client based firms.
Next, “our” definition of egregious is different than a homelander!!
Lastly, it will be more costly and time consuming to send out nice nice warning and information/obligation letters. They will have all the data they need to send a request for payment or explanation if you disagree.
When you think about this in IT terms its actually pretty easy to digest what is a drop in the bucket amount of information compared to what they are used to processing.
Further, I have no doubt that certain members of US Congress will do an excel analysis of all the Canadian Tax Cheats, living the good life in WaWa, Winnipeg and other place names with W who actually owe the homeland a gazillion dollars in tax. penalty and interest.
FATCA isn’t about taxes. It’s about information, control and punishment.
Even Roy Berg says FATCA is a “data grab.”
@George, Like I say, I agree they will send out letters assessing monies owed but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ll be able to directly seize it from a Canadian savings account, especially from a local credit union that’s non-reporting and deemed compliant. They’d have to subsequently pursue the fines through the Canadian or other countries’ courts. It would costs the IRS too much money unless it was an egregious case involving huge accounts.
Realistically the IRS would have to be happy enough to settle out of court.
If things gets really ugly, I’ve warned my parents that I might not be able to continue visiting them but I’m reasonably optimistic that I’ll still be able to….plus, if the US gets really nasty, I’m sure that they’ll be some tilt for tat. I worry but I think you worry even more than I!!
@Moaner1776, you should enjoy the summer or the five days of summer you will actually get. 😉
The question is if the USG will “jump the shark.” I think they will;
Why do I think this?
When you read the IGA template, it was written by more than one individual. One person wrote with concern of the expat. The other wrote in the spirit of the Nuremberg Laws.
The IGA template jumped the shark by even breathing “indica” and “place of birth.” Thats the achilis heel of the whole thing. Going after duals, non documented relinquishers and accidentals was the bridge too far.
With the USG having gone that far and being in possession of address information, it will be impossible to resist sending out requests for payment.
Remember the parable;
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion
says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”
People in BC can open an account here: If this place turns anyone in I can guarantee that there are no places left to turn.
CCEC is a single branch credit union on Commercial Drive. It was founded by Vancouver’s self-help community including co-ops and not-for-profit groups to meet their financial needs. Our goal is Economic democracy. We live that goal by treating our members with respect and dignity and remembering the co-operative principles on which we were founded. Our members are individuals and groups, businesses and activists. We specialize in providing banking services to everyone – without judgment and without discrimination. At CCEC, you can align your values with your finances.
@Moaner1776, ” They’d have to subsequently pursue the fines through the Canadian or other countries’ courts. It would costs the IRS too much money unless it was an egregious case involving huge accounts.”
I concur with that.
There are only five countries that the USA has a mutual collection treaty with. Canada is one of them and its limited.
Documented relinquishers are out of the picture other than inconvenience.
Undocumented relinquishers and accidentals will be uncollectible. But…….they will be prohibited from entering the US or it will be stupid of them to enter.
US Expats and Duals wearing the red white and blue are stuffed. They will likely face non-renewal of a US Passport or with respect to a uni-USA Expat, they will get a limited validity passport to return to the US.
Thats what the tea leafs look like.
@George, I agree it’s really scary; we’ll just have to wait and see. All I can think is of how relieved I am that I renounced. I’ve moved most of my investments into a deemed compliant pension fund and ISA. I believe these are also non-reporting. May transfer the rest of my cash savings to my British husband and/or buy some physical gold.
What more can I do. I no longer have any money in the States. I feel sorry for my fellow expat friends; I’ve frequently warned them about FATCA but they think I wear a tin foiled hat. In the meantime I’ll drink Stella and eat popcorn.
@Blaze “FATCA isn’t about taxes. It’s about information, control and punishment. ”
Its also a power tool to deflect problems politically.
Just think what that first data dump is going to show to an enterprising young aide to a US Senator?
Just think of the suppossed BILLIONS in lost tax, penalty and interest.
With that spreadsheet, you push for FATCA 2 which is a collection treaty subject to a 30% penalty or higher.
Remember, Brockers are living “Life of the Rich and Famous” sipping their Labatts. 😉
@George, and Stella’s 😀
@Moaner, “but they think I wear a tin foiled hat.”
I started getting better reception with Tesco tin foil than Asda brand. 😉
Yes, I find myself running into oblivious expats all the time now. Non US compliant, nearing retirement, happy with ILR instead of citizenship and oblivious.
@Moaner, are you still wondering what the society has on its records for you? Do you have online access? Yes/No
bdwight,
Three years to become compliant and then to continue to be compliant forever more — or find your way out of the absurdity.
Yes, “moaner”, you do need to enjoy your summer. You have done all you can do, so take your own good advice.
Or, we can take our pick of others thoughts on worry:
He who fears he shall suffer, already suffers what he fears. ~Michel de Montaigne
I highly recommend worrying. It is much more effective than dieting. ~William Powell
I refuse to be burdened by vague worries. If something wants to worry me, it will have to make itself clear. ~Robert Brault
Worrying is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do, but it gets you nowhere. ~Glenn Turner
I’ve developed a new philosophy… I only dread one day at a time. ~Charlie Brown
The worst case is dead people.
Simple, everyday dead from stress, heart attacks or strokes brought on by worry, or bankruptcy, or the heartbreak of not being there for your own parents as they reach the end of their own lives.
Dramatic dead at the hands of terrorists or criminals who have seized or extorted lists of U.S. Persons from banks, insurance companies or governments and yanked their victims out of their beds at night. The luckier ones may be merely held hostage until someone decides their lives are worth more than Uncle Sam thinks they are.
The architects of FATCA will eventually have more than figurative blood on their hands.
@Deckard: I know personally of people who were at one time very active here who are experiencing very serious health problems that they believe are directly linked to the stress of all of this.
I also know of honest people who have worked hard all their lives to save for their retirement or kids’ education who have contemplated suicide.
To US Treasury, we are all simply tax cheating myths. Even worse is our own elected Cons and Finance Canada seem to share that view of one million “American citizens abiding in Canada,”
AFAIK, at least the Americans weren’t making jokes and laughing about a mentally disabled citizen and his seventy year old mother who has tried to provide for him. They were too busy making sure he paid his “fair share” to a country where he has never lived from money paid to him from the country where he was born and lives.
@Blaze
Very good points. Even the contemplation of suicide over FATCA and FBAR and OVDI is evidence that something is terribly, terribly wrong.
And, yes, the governments of what used to be considered two of the world’s most advanced and compassionate nations now appear to be competing in a race to the bottom of the well of human decency. Pathetic.
What has been shown to happen. The IRS has released personal information to people who are your adversaries. if they don’t like you they will do whatever they want to do.
The IRS cannot be reformed unless tax returns have all the personal information redacted and without a court order from the country of origin before they can even find the personal information.
Now we all know the IRS will never relinquish their egotistical power to ruin lives and hurt people of a different political belief.
I agree with the worst case being dead people. Add suicides to the list.
If the FATCA train is allowed to continue unchecked, I have no doubt there will be deaths.
Also, people suffering from physical illnesses & depression brought on by the stress.
What I think the IRS will do is send a nice letter with a penalty attached. The letter gives you a carrot that you can contact the IRS with your explanation of innocence & how you are coming into compliance and therefore penalties might be waived for you. Otherwise you need to pay the penalty because you were non-compliant & you still are expected to become compliant anyway. This will be the warning shot letter because if you ignore it, your penalties will significantly increase because then you will be deemed to be willfully non-compliant. You will have a very tight deadline to pay up or contact them before the penalty increases. The IRS won’t have success with all their letters but that doesn’t matter. As long as some people get scared into submitting, it will be worth it for them.
My response to the IRS is what the Greeks said to the Persians at Thermopylae in 480 BC : “Molon Labe” — Come and take you Fascists bastards!!
@Benedict Arnold – right on!
Has anybody thought about the possibility that if Canada gave in to America`s blackmail once, it might do so again? I mean, you have all been promised that Canada will not collect money for the IRS. But who is to say if America won’t wield a big stick again and with its power- get more concessions from other countries in the future? Who is to say that America will stop here? ( I KNOW- the thought is very upsetting- but this thread asks for “worst”.)
kbella says: Can you not just [put] all accounts in your spouses name if they are Canadian?
On this rare occasion, response is made to this item, as merely one sad instance of the panicked dodge subgenre that routinely soap-operas on the Brock channel — and brings far more stigma to the nonexistent “Brock brand” that the wingiest excommunicated ranting ever could.
First two specifics. [For purposes of thought experiment, set aside the a priori fact of being a noncompliant US person.] (1) If amounts are significant, their “transfer” will exceed the limits on unreported gifting. (2) Taking such an action will go a long long way toward establishing willfulness in attempting to “hide” assets.
Then one generality. Perhaps the most prevalent panicked dodge is believing that an account shift (with or without splittings) from bank to credit union can “hide” assets.
As Little Richard likes to wail, “Slippin an a-slidin, peepin an a-hidin …” And in the distance, the IRS lurks, ready to dub over on “I won’t be your fool no more.”
Compliance condors have to love circling high above self-diggers sweating like crazy to shovel out shelters that show so little promise of keeping their bones from being picked clean. Knowing that when the gig is up, they’ll really have a chance to swoop down on a big chunk of seriously infested meat.
Thimk for a change. Sauve qui peut.