@June Cleaver – if the banks won’t give you the info on closed accounts then they won’t give anyone info about closed accounts, so just pretend they never existed.
Dear Brocksters,
My father died three weeks ago in the States and while I am still numb and grieving, I have been reading all the new posts and comments, which helped my low blood pressure to rise significantly. Just being in the US made me angst ridden and so angry. As my father was dying, he asked me what we were doing to fight FATCA, and he gave me a smile and a thumbs up when I told him that we would fight and go to jail if need be. He always fought for the little person against oppression.
In reading the analysis of the new streamlined option, my husband (a Canadian) and I have made a commitment not to proceed down that garden path. We have made a pact not to respond to any bank queries, although our financial management institution already gave us the updated questionnaire – I drew a line through and refused to admit to anything. So they already know….I am ready to move my money to a credit union. Could someone please let me know which CU is not asking, for the time being? My feeling is that the ones in Quebec would be far more loathsome to cooperate. Am I wrong?
Like GwEvil, I will fight every attempt by not responding, paying a fine if I have to, and go to jail if need be.
I am feeling that we need to have a broad based campaign, educating all Canadians that they can stand up to the bully by refusing to answer the questions. We need to help the general public understand that Gandhi beat the Raj through nonviolent means and we can do so too. If even 1/3 of the populace, 10+ million told the banks that these questions are a violation of their human rights and they will not answer, perhaps the process will get bogged down, buy us time with the charter challenge, etc. I like Blaze’s suggestion about going to complain to the Human Rights or Privacy Commissioner, anything to take a stand.
I am feeling despondent that we have not had our million person march and that our Dday will come and go with no protest. The discussions in the press, i.e. Economist, G&M, is good, but at the end of the day, it will only come down to us. I laughed when I read Margaret Wente. Too little too late.
You were all my solace while I was away and now you are my power.
@Tangogirl – so sorry to hear about your dad. I lost mine in 2006 way before this FATCA fight ever began and I am imagining how he would have been enraged and furious about it, as he was a very patriotic Canadian. He would have hated the Harper regime for being the traitorous cowards they are. I feel the same way you do about fighting this to the death. They will have to pry my hard-won already-taxed savings and capital gains from my cold dead fingers!
As for credit unions, I will bet you that the majority don’t have anything in place to even ask the question. But if so, I’d have no compunction about lying through my teeth about my birthplace. For the record I am in TO and we opened up accounts at the Creative Arts CU. They were extremely low key and very mom and popish. We used our driver’s licences and that was it!
@Tangogirl
So sorry for your loss. I was a “Daddys girl”, but my father died many years ago. I know it hurts. He will remain with you in your memories.
I`m wondering what will happen to all the renunciants in Europe who just renounced and thats it. No back taxes, no 3 years etc etc. No nuttin. Will they be found out? Will they have troubles? What will their governments do to them too? Germany for example sees tax evasion as a crime worth deporting people back to America for. What will happen to these people because this is also an open act of defiance.
Can you not just all accounts in your spouses name if they are Canadian?
Blaze, ‘I also feel a phenomenal sense of violation”
The founding fathers of our FORMER Country had it right with 4th Amendment. We as citizens of new lands are the torch bearers of that.
Please forgive my analogy but this is another form of personal rape, it is an absolute violation of a persons privacy. As we fight this injustice, it is time for the gloves to come off and call things what they are.
I think everyone that is thinking Treasury will be overwhelmed with data are flat out wrong. I am looking at this as someone involved in IT.
Each year the IRS is able to process One Billion plus Forms 1099 from a huge number of financial providers and then match those forms up to individual taxpayers. Twelve to eighteen months after they get the data they have already matched them to tens of millions of returns and sent out billing notices.
Those many who are non-filers have had substitute returns prepared for them as single taxpayers with no exemptions/deductions. They too have recieived billings.
How many FATCA notices are they going to get? With seven million US Persons, maybe thirty million reporting on the outside.
They will be able to “process” that information very very quickly and send out whatever notices they want.
The first data dump is March 2015? So that means in early 2017, possibly millions of expats will get very nasty correspondence. That will mean a political crisis in Canada and in many other places.
To be honest, as part of the Charter Challenge, to protect BOTH the people and incumbent Government of Canada, there should be an injunction against CRA from handing over any information next March.
@kbella
If you are referring to taking an account that is joint with your spouse, and asking the bank to take your name off it, the banks refuse to do that. They will force you to close the account and have each joint account holder open a separate account.
I suppose if you trust your spouse you could put all of your monies in an account with the other person’s name on it. However, now you no longer have control over any of your money so to speak.
I think there is some confusion amongst Brockers, financial firms and maybe even compliance firms.
One, brockers should always utilize firms that are otherwise considered “firms with a local client base.” You should have ALWAYS been doing this to support your local community!! This is no different than using your locally owned bookstore instead of Amazon. There are ethical reasons for doing this not FATCA reasons.
Its very reasonable to assume that firms will report all accounts regardless if they have $5, $5,000 or $50,000. Why? They can and its simple………..
So whats the situation with credit unions in Canada that we are not seeing with credit unions in other countries?
In most cases they clearly meet the local client base requirement though some are also transnational because of a parent company.
But others blow out of the $175 million asset base that forces them to register.
A local client base firm is otherwise considered a “deemed compliant institution.” Some are registered and others are non-registered.
EVERY Canadian Credit Union that has assets over $175 million MUST register and must have a policy and procedures to either close accounts of US Persons that leave Canada or to report them to the CRA. But that is the ONLY thing they do because they are also called “non-reporting.”
In essence, most credit unions in Canada should be considered “Non-Reporting Registered Deemed Compliant.”
How should a “Non-Reporting Registered Deemed Compliant.” credit union in Canada be operating?
a.) they should be asking asking citizenship and you fill in the blank(s) or they should have a YES/NO section on US Person. They should not be asking place of birth as CRA is clear on that and it is discriminatory.
b.) The ONLY reporting to CRA should be US Persons who leave Canada or in the alternative account closure.
As a note I disagreed with others concerning recalcitrant accounts and thought account closure was a good option!! That way you knew where you stood instead of a guessing game.
So what do you do? Just like you should buy fruit/veg locally you need to “bank” locally. I believe some credit unions have provisions that allow one to retain membership if you move away, I think that is more modern and something I disagree with. So if you can find a credit union that has firm policies prohibiting members to retain or continue membership after leaving the area of membership you have a good firm.
The wild card would be if a credit union uses an accounting firm that advises a credit union to go for full registration and NOT to elect the local client base exception. The greatest fear is the compliance industry.
In a couple years, we will all know what the FATCA position is of the various credit unions because it will likely be footnoted in the financial statements. Until then, someone needs to ask the pointed question, “What is your FATCA status? Are you a “local client base firm?”
To help clarify the above…remember you can have…..
Non Registered (non-reporting) Deemed Compliant
Registered (non-reporting) Deemed Compliant.
Neither of the above report US Persons resident in Canada to CRA. But the later must identify US Persons just in case they move back to the homeland.
@George
2017? That might give enough time for the charter challenge which would hopefully resurrect canadian citizens rights to equal treatment.
@Polly, actually without an injunction the scorched earth damage is past tense.
March 2015, data transfer from CRA
September 2016, first data set processed, analyzed and demand letters sent out.
Early 2017, it hits the fan……..
To be honest, the Harper Government should have insisted that address information was NOT to be passed from the CRA to the USA. They should have kept control and required that correspondence passed through them. That would have provided much needed political protection.
Instead, letters are going to come directly to Mr. & Mrs. Maple Leaf. The politicians will have zero advance knowledge of the demands being made upon their citizens.
If they had controlled the information flow by having CRA retain the address information, they would have seen the total demands being made in dollars and could have said take a hike Sam.
I have been thinking long and hard about the posture of the Conservatives in ramming this through.
Some were clearly pretty stupid and are an insult to the human race…….
But I think others assumed there would be a wink/nod and the status quo would prevail.
When you look at the IGA’s there is nothing in them that should have affected know your customer and already existing onboarding requirements.
WE know that the worst KYC and onboarding rules exist in the USA.
The SOLE question that should be asked when opening an account is where do you live and maybe Citizenship: (fill in the blank.)
Based on the above, the status quo would have remained.
This idea of asking place of birth was CREATED out of thin air by the compliance industry in the same zeal as hunting Jews in 1930 Europe.
I do suspect that some in the accounting industry which has compliance arms honestly thinks asking place of birth is discriminatory. At a minimum the onboarding screen should have had two choices: United States and Other. Instead they are asking every country on earth and this is after a major UK firm was sued for that type of discrimination.
The other aspect hanging in my mind is IF you can ask your place of birth to determine US’ness then you should also ask place of birth of mother/father. If the former question is valid so is the later.
An effective way of striking down a law is showing its absurdity. I think we need to ask why the questioning is limited to just the person who has an account and why it does not go beyond to parents place of birth.
To be honest, I wish just one bank would jump the shark and start asking parents place of birth!
Obama was commiserating with a woman whose husband lost his job. then got injured. The wife had to go to work and it hard because you need childcare etc. Well Obama says he knows what that’s like because they once lost their nanny!
I was thinking I have had a pretty good life. I have never lost a job. I did get run over by a drunk driver one time but I was lucky and was OK. Then I thought that if Obama really wants to empathize with people going though hard times he can join the program he set in motion. Get in on OVDP. Where you spend two years desperately trying to understand what the hell is happening to you. You have no idea how much it’s going to cost but the IRS pulls all kind of tricks to take your money. Yep the IRS dips into your retirement savings just like you might have to if you lost your job.
Yep he could spend all day at work then come back to the second job of compiling with the OVDP. That’s basically what it amounts to. For two years I was an employee of the IRS essentially. It’s like working two jobs to make ends meet.
I don’t know what it’s like to have depression but if it’s like carrying a really heavy weight on you day and night for two years or not knowing when the crap is ever going to end then I have been there.
You get threatened with criminal prosecution on a regular basis or with fines that will take all your stuff. I guess that’s similar to having crushing debts but with a debtor you can never get away from.
@Pacifica777
That’s the very one – thanks for digging that up. I can’t bear to watch it again, but if my memory serves me well, the IRS wants bank personnel to report anyone/everyone they have personal knowledge of being a USP, regardless of their bank balance.
@Tangogirl
So sorry to hear about the loss of your father. I thank my mother every day for bringing me to Canada, but because she developed dementia in the last few years of her life, she never learned about my troubles. She was always a staunch Liberal, and would have had some pretty choice words for Harper had she been able to act on the knowledge of what the Conservatives have done to her children.
@George
Looks like D-Day is sometime next January.
Koskinen:
“Third, the automatic exchange of bulk information contemplated by FATCA will require a modern mode of data transmission, one that, frankly, is not available at the moment. This too has presented a challenge for IRS like no other faced in the past. So, working again with our partners in tax administration around the world, we have had to design a new system for electronic data exchange that will allow FATCA data to be transmitted quickly and securely. So far, we are pleased with the resulting design of this new “International Data Exchange System,” which we refer to as IDES. We believe it will accomplish our goals, and anticipate it will be available to users by January of the coming year so that FATCA data can flow on time.”
“…it is also important to point out that Congress has mandated that the IRS implement FATCA. Whatever else we are going to do, the IRS must move forward with our non- discretionary legislative mandates, and FATCA is at the top of that list. So I want to assure those of you dealing with FATCA implementation in other ways and in other realms that the IRS will continue to find the necessary resources for FATCA, and implementation will not be disrupted by our budget constraints.”
I wonder if the IRS will erroneously also send out the inevitable warning letters even to former citizens who’ve filed 8854? We never receive written confirmation that we’re safely logged out of the tax system.
Sorry, here’s the link to PREPARED REMARKS OF
JOHN A. KOSKINEN
COMMISSIONER
INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE
BEFORE THE
U.S. COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS-OECD INTERNATIONAL TAX CONFERENCE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
JUNE 3, 2014
Also everyone has to remember the USG could lower the $50k figure and make it retroactive to broaden the dragnet. No future proofing.
@Moaner1776, “I wonder if the IRS will erroneously also send out the inevitable warning letters even to former citizens who’ve filed 8854?”
Warning letters, are you dreaming?
There are not going to be any warning letters, they are going to send demands for money.
Why do I think this? Its what happens in the homeland everyday.
Treasury receives Forms 1099 and then “matches them.”
Does treasury send out a polite letter? No, they send you a demand for money that you can attempt to talk your way out of!!
People face the music, we are persona non grata in the eyes of homelanders and the administration. What can we do to them? We sure can not vote them out of office…..LOL LOL
Grandma Maple Leaf is on her way under the bus. But once that happens to her, the politicians will be making up all kinds of excuses………..it was the guy behind the trees fault.
@Don, ” No future proofing.”
I am getting a little philisophical about this but I think we are going back to the days prior to the US Supreme Court getting involved.
We did not have this fear/problem in the old days when the “presumption” was there was an intention to lose US Citizenship. Seriously, I think that was correct. You had to walk a fine line to keep US Citizenship.
It has only been a “single generation” in time where we have the problem of getting rid of it.
We need a final “cure” to the problem at hand.
In Canada and our other home countries, we need our Government to prohibit and absolutely not recognize anything beyond a single nationality.
With respect to the US, the problem is the US State Department has “created law” out of thin air. To counter that we need the US Congress to make solid law that can withstand the Supreme Court.
In South Africa if you take on another nationality you must get a “certificate of retention.” Maybe thats what the US needs to do, so instead of getting a certificate of relinquishment you get a certificate of retention.
Another idea would be to amend 8 US Code by adding the following expatriating act;
8. Entering the United States on a passport issued by a Country other than the United States.
That amendment would greatly simplify the expatriation process.
@George, it will still cost the IRS huge amounts of money to aggressively chase minnow expats with fines, especially if they no longer have any assets inside the US. I could, however, see them sending out lots of reminder letters. If they are too harsh, there will so such an uproar that I don’t think it will be as bleak as you’re fearing, even though I worry.
It seems common sense that they will thus , at least initially, focus on egregious cases involving huge accounts. The first two years of FATCA will also involve a more lenient treatment towards FFIs making a good faith effort to comply. It will thus probably be 2018 or 2019 before the sh*t hits the fan rather than 2016-2017.
@George,
Your right. I have had a couple of letters in the last 17 years where the IRS just sends me a letter demanding money because they have adjusted my return. Each time it’s been an error and I wasted time to correct them.
They call this a deficiency and have a whole process for it. Cheaper than an audit.
Haha Petros! I won’t be writing a cheque for 300% of my whole net worth!
Well, we are not alone (at least in Canada…1,000,000). Some solace.
@ bubblebustin,
Is it this?
NotThatTara’s comment (when she was posting as Tara) 28 Nov 2013 at 3.58 pm
@June Cleaver – if the banks won’t give you the info on closed accounts then they won’t give anyone info about closed accounts, so just pretend they never existed.
Dear Brocksters,
My father died three weeks ago in the States and while I am still numb and grieving, I have been reading all the new posts and comments, which helped my low blood pressure to rise significantly. Just being in the US made me angst ridden and so angry. As my father was dying, he asked me what we were doing to fight FATCA, and he gave me a smile and a thumbs up when I told him that we would fight and go to jail if need be. He always fought for the little person against oppression.
In reading the analysis of the new streamlined option, my husband (a Canadian) and I have made a commitment not to proceed down that garden path. We have made a pact not to respond to any bank queries, although our financial management institution already gave us the updated questionnaire – I drew a line through and refused to admit to anything. So they already know….I am ready to move my money to a credit union. Could someone please let me know which CU is not asking, for the time being? My feeling is that the ones in Quebec would be far more loathsome to cooperate. Am I wrong?
Like GwEvil, I will fight every attempt by not responding, paying a fine if I have to, and go to jail if need be.
I am feeling that we need to have a broad based campaign, educating all Canadians that they can stand up to the bully by refusing to answer the questions. We need to help the general public understand that Gandhi beat the Raj through nonviolent means and we can do so too. If even 1/3 of the populace, 10+ million told the banks that these questions are a violation of their human rights and they will not answer, perhaps the process will get bogged down, buy us time with the charter challenge, etc. I like Blaze’s suggestion about going to complain to the Human Rights or Privacy Commissioner, anything to take a stand.
I am feeling despondent that we have not had our million person march and that our Dday will come and go with no protest. The discussions in the press, i.e. Economist, G&M, is good, but at the end of the day, it will only come down to us. I laughed when I read Margaret Wente. Too little too late.
You were all my solace while I was away and now you are my power.
@Tangogirl – so sorry to hear about your dad. I lost mine in 2006 way before this FATCA fight ever began and I am imagining how he would have been enraged and furious about it, as he was a very patriotic Canadian. He would have hated the Harper regime for being the traitorous cowards they are. I feel the same way you do about fighting this to the death. They will have to pry my hard-won already-taxed savings and capital gains from my cold dead fingers!
As for credit unions, I will bet you that the majority don’t have anything in place to even ask the question. But if so, I’d have no compunction about lying through my teeth about my birthplace. For the record I am in TO and we opened up accounts at the Creative Arts CU. They were extremely low key and very mom and popish. We used our driver’s licences and that was it!
@Tangogirl
So sorry for your loss. I was a “Daddys girl”, but my father died many years ago. I know it hurts. He will remain with you in your memories.
I`m wondering what will happen to all the renunciants in Europe who just renounced and thats it. No back taxes, no 3 years etc etc. No nuttin. Will they be found out? Will they have troubles? What will their governments do to them too? Germany for example sees tax evasion as a crime worth deporting people back to America for. What will happen to these people because this is also an open act of defiance.
Can you not just all accounts in your spouses name if they are Canadian?
Blaze, ‘I also feel a phenomenal sense of violation”
The founding fathers of our FORMER Country had it right with 4th Amendment. We as citizens of new lands are the torch bearers of that.
Please forgive my analogy but this is another form of personal rape, it is an absolute violation of a persons privacy. As we fight this injustice, it is time for the gloves to come off and call things what they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Worst case, how about likely case?
I think everyone that is thinking Treasury will be overwhelmed with data are flat out wrong. I am looking at this as someone involved in IT.
Each year the IRS is able to process One Billion plus Forms 1099 from a huge number of financial providers and then match those forms up to individual taxpayers. Twelve to eighteen months after they get the data they have already matched them to tens of millions of returns and sent out billing notices.
Those many who are non-filers have had substitute returns prepared for them as single taxpayers with no exemptions/deductions. They too have recieived billings.
How many FATCA notices are they going to get? With seven million US Persons, maybe thirty million reporting on the outside.
They will be able to “process” that information very very quickly and send out whatever notices they want.
The first data dump is March 2015? So that means in early 2017, possibly millions of expats will get very nasty correspondence. That will mean a political crisis in Canada and in many other places.
To be honest, as part of the Charter Challenge, to protect BOTH the people and incumbent Government of Canada, there should be an injunction against CRA from handing over any information next March.
@kbella
If you are referring to taking an account that is joint with your spouse, and asking the bank to take your name off it, the banks refuse to do that. They will force you to close the account and have each joint account holder open a separate account.
I suppose if you trust your spouse you could put all of your monies in an account with the other person’s name on it. However, now you no longer have control over any of your money so to speak.
I think there is some confusion amongst Brockers, financial firms and maybe even compliance firms.
One, brockers should always utilize firms that are otherwise considered “firms with a local client base.” You should have ALWAYS been doing this to support your local community!! This is no different than using your locally owned bookstore instead of Amazon. There are ethical reasons for doing this not FATCA reasons.
Its very reasonable to assume that firms will report all accounts regardless if they have $5, $5,000 or $50,000. Why? They can and its simple………..
So whats the situation with credit unions in Canada that we are not seeing with credit unions in other countries?
In most cases they clearly meet the local client base requirement though some are also transnational because of a parent company.
But others blow out of the $175 million asset base that forces them to register.
A local client base firm is otherwise considered a “deemed compliant institution.” Some are registered and others are non-registered.
EVERY Canadian Credit Union that has assets over $175 million MUST register and must have a policy and procedures to either close accounts of US Persons that leave Canada or to report them to the CRA. But that is the ONLY thing they do because they are also called “non-reporting.”
In essence, most credit unions in Canada should be considered “Non-Reporting Registered Deemed Compliant.”
How should a “Non-Reporting Registered Deemed Compliant.” credit union in Canada be operating?
a.) they should be asking asking citizenship and you fill in the blank(s) or they should have a YES/NO section on US Person. They should not be asking place of birth as CRA is clear on that and it is discriminatory.
b.) The ONLY reporting to CRA should be US Persons who leave Canada or in the alternative account closure.
As a note I disagreed with others concerning recalcitrant accounts and thought account closure was a good option!! That way you knew where you stood instead of a guessing game.
So what do you do? Just like you should buy fruit/veg locally you need to “bank” locally. I believe some credit unions have provisions that allow one to retain membership if you move away, I think that is more modern and something I disagree with. So if you can find a credit union that has firm policies prohibiting members to retain or continue membership after leaving the area of membership you have a good firm.
The wild card would be if a credit union uses an accounting firm that advises a credit union to go for full registration and NOT to elect the local client base exception. The greatest fear is the compliance industry.
In a couple years, we will all know what the FATCA position is of the various credit unions because it will likely be footnoted in the financial statements. Until then, someone needs to ask the pointed question, “What is your FATCA status? Are you a “local client base firm?”
To help clarify the above…remember you can have…..
Non Registered (non-reporting) Deemed Compliant
Registered (non-reporting) Deemed Compliant.
Neither of the above report US Persons resident in Canada to CRA. But the later must identify US Persons just in case they move back to the homeland.
@George
2017? That might give enough time for the charter challenge which would hopefully resurrect canadian citizens rights to equal treatment.
@Polly, actually without an injunction the scorched earth damage is past tense.
March 2015, data transfer from CRA
September 2016, first data set processed, analyzed and demand letters sent out.
Early 2017, it hits the fan……..
To be honest, the Harper Government should have insisted that address information was NOT to be passed from the CRA to the USA. They should have kept control and required that correspondence passed through them. That would have provided much needed political protection.
Instead, letters are going to come directly to Mr. & Mrs. Maple Leaf. The politicians will have zero advance knowledge of the demands being made upon their citizens.
If they had controlled the information flow by having CRA retain the address information, they would have seen the total demands being made in dollars and could have said take a hike Sam.
I have been thinking long and hard about the posture of the Conservatives in ramming this through.
Some were clearly pretty stupid and are an insult to the human race…….
But I think others assumed there would be a wink/nod and the status quo would prevail.
When you look at the IGA’s there is nothing in them that should have affected know your customer and already existing onboarding requirements.
WE know that the worst KYC and onboarding rules exist in the USA.
The SOLE question that should be asked when opening an account is where do you live and maybe Citizenship: (fill in the blank.)
Based on the above, the status quo would have remained.
This idea of asking place of birth was CREATED out of thin air by the compliance industry in the same zeal as hunting Jews in 1930 Europe.
I do suspect that some in the accounting industry which has compliance arms honestly thinks asking place of birth is discriminatory. At a minimum the onboarding screen should have had two choices: United States and Other. Instead they are asking every country on earth and this is after a major UK firm was sued for that type of discrimination.
The other aspect hanging in my mind is IF you can ask your place of birth to determine US’ness then you should also ask place of birth of mother/father. If the former question is valid so is the later.
An effective way of striking down a law is showing its absurdity. I think we need to ask why the questioning is limited to just the person who has an account and why it does not go beyond to parents place of birth.
To be honest, I wish just one bank would jump the shark and start asking parents place of birth!
Obama was commiserating with a woman whose husband lost his job. then got injured. The wife had to go to work and it hard because you need childcare etc. Well Obama says he knows what that’s like because they once lost their nanny!
I was thinking I have had a pretty good life. I have never lost a job. I did get run over by a drunk driver one time but I was lucky and was OK. Then I thought that if Obama really wants to empathize with people going though hard times he can join the program he set in motion. Get in on OVDP. Where you spend two years desperately trying to understand what the hell is happening to you. You have no idea how much it’s going to cost but the IRS pulls all kind of tricks to take your money. Yep the IRS dips into your retirement savings just like you might have to if you lost your job.
Yep he could spend all day at work then come back to the second job of compiling with the OVDP. That’s basically what it amounts to. For two years I was an employee of the IRS essentially. It’s like working two jobs to make ends meet.
I don’t know what it’s like to have depression but if it’s like carrying a really heavy weight on you day and night for two years or not knowing when the crap is ever going to end then I have been there.
You get threatened with criminal prosecution on a regular basis or with fines that will take all your stuff. I guess that’s similar to having crushing debts but with a debtor you can never get away from.
@Pacifica777
That’s the very one – thanks for digging that up. I can’t bear to watch it again, but if my memory serves me well, the IRS wants bank personnel to report anyone/everyone they have personal knowledge of being a USP, regardless of their bank balance.
@Tangogirl
So sorry to hear about the loss of your father. I thank my mother every day for bringing me to Canada, but because she developed dementia in the last few years of her life, she never learned about my troubles. She was always a staunch Liberal, and would have had some pretty choice words for Harper had she been able to act on the knowledge of what the Conservatives have done to her children.
@George
Looks like D-Day is sometime next January.
Koskinen:
“Third, the automatic exchange of bulk information contemplated by FATCA will require a modern mode of data transmission, one that, frankly, is not available at the moment. This too has presented a challenge for IRS like no other faced in the past. So, working again with our partners in tax administration around the world, we have had to design a new system for electronic data exchange that will allow FATCA data to be transmitted quickly and securely. So far, we are pleased with the resulting design of this new “International Data Exchange System,” which we refer to as IDES. We believe it will accomplish our goals, and anticipate it will be available to users by January of the coming year so that FATCA data can flow on time.”
“…it is also important to point out that Congress has mandated that the IRS implement FATCA. Whatever else we are going to do, the IRS must move forward with our non- discretionary legislative mandates, and FATCA is at the top of that list. So I want to assure those of you dealing with FATCA implementation in other ways and in other realms that the IRS will continue to find the necessary resources for FATCA, and implementation will not be disrupted by our budget constraints.”
I wonder if the IRS will erroneously also send out the inevitable warning letters even to former citizens who’ve filed 8854? We never receive written confirmation that we’re safely logged out of the tax system.
Sorry, here’s the link to PREPARED REMARKS OF
JOHN A. KOSKINEN
COMMISSIONER
INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE
BEFORE THE
U.S. COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS-OECD INTERNATIONAL TAX CONFERENCE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
JUNE 3, 2014
http://www.irs.gov/PUP/irs/Commissioner%20Koskinen's%20Remarks%20at%20US%20CIB%20and%20OECD%20Int%20Tax%20Conf%20June%202014.pdf
Also everyone has to remember the USG could lower the $50k figure and make it retroactive to broaden the dragnet. No future proofing.
@Moaner1776, “I wonder if the IRS will erroneously also send out the inevitable warning letters even to former citizens who’ve filed 8854?”
Warning letters, are you dreaming?
There are not going to be any warning letters, they are going to send demands for money.
Why do I think this? Its what happens in the homeland everyday.
Treasury receives Forms 1099 and then “matches them.”
Does treasury send out a polite letter? No, they send you a demand for money that you can attempt to talk your way out of!!
People face the music, we are persona non grata in the eyes of homelanders and the administration. What can we do to them? We sure can not vote them out of office…..LOL LOL
Grandma Maple Leaf is on her way under the bus. But once that happens to her, the politicians will be making up all kinds of excuses………..it was the guy behind the trees fault.
@Don, ” No future proofing.”
I am getting a little philisophical about this but I think we are going back to the days prior to the US Supreme Court getting involved.
We did not have this fear/problem in the old days when the “presumption” was there was an intention to lose US Citizenship. Seriously, I think that was correct. You had to walk a fine line to keep US Citizenship.
It has only been a “single generation” in time where we have the problem of getting rid of it.
We need a final “cure” to the problem at hand.
In Canada and our other home countries, we need our Government to prohibit and absolutely not recognize anything beyond a single nationality.
With respect to the US, the problem is the US State Department has “created law” out of thin air. To counter that we need the US Congress to make solid law that can withstand the Supreme Court.
In South Africa if you take on another nationality you must get a “certificate of retention.” Maybe thats what the US needs to do, so instead of getting a certificate of relinquishment you get a certificate of retention.
Another idea would be to amend 8 US Code by adding the following expatriating act;
8. Entering the United States on a passport issued by a Country other than the United States.
That amendment would greatly simplify the expatriation process.
@George, it will still cost the IRS huge amounts of money to aggressively chase minnow expats with fines, especially if they no longer have any assets inside the US. I could, however, see them sending out lots of reminder letters. If they are too harsh, there will so such an uproar that I don’t think it will be as bleak as you’re fearing, even though I worry.
It seems common sense that they will thus , at least initially, focus on egregious cases involving huge accounts. The first two years of FATCA will also involve a more lenient treatment towards FFIs making a good faith effort to comply. It will thus probably be 2018 or 2019 before the sh*t hits the fan rather than 2016-2017.
@George,
Your right. I have had a couple of letters in the last 17 years where the IRS just sends me a letter demanding money because they have adjusted my return. Each time it’s been an error and I wasted time to correct them.
They call this a deficiency and have a whole process for it. Cheaper than an audit.