On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
Become a liar at the same time reward the banks with your money? Why?
@GwEvil
“I mean are they going to hook us up to polygraph machines?”
I know you meant this tongue in cheek and of course it would be extremely offensive to actually hook someone up to a polygraph machine.
Having said that, if someone, in their own view is solely a Canadian citizen and it is only the US government that thinks they are a US citizen–such a person would PASS a polygraph test for the simple reason that from their perspective it is NOT a lie.
All three questions: “are you a US person”, “are you a US citizen”, and “were you born in the US” are quite offensive to be asked of a Canadian opening a bank account in Canada. But of the three I consider “were you born in the US” to be the worst. The reason is that the other two questions can be truthfully answered ‘no’ if it is only the US government that thinks they are a citizen–at most they have “clinging US nationality”.
But there is no truthful way to deny being born in the US if you were in fact born there because that is fact of birth rather than a question of current allegiance.
“Guidance on enhanced financial accounts information reporting”
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/gdnc-eng.html#Toc390079679
Go to 9.27 to find 3 examples of questions the CRA provides to financial institutions to obtain “self-certification from an account holder”.
Here are the CRA’s FAQs for FATCA dated July 31, 2014. They only emphasize the extreme depth of the betrayal which came with the Canadian government’s capitulation to FATCA.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/fq-eng.html
This is question 6 from the CRA’s FAQ list for the IGA. I have added bolding to some words:
So beware of any financial institution that knows you have a U.S. place of birth or asks you that question. Apparently they are allowed to treat your accounts as reportable accounts and are not required to ask you for documentation to show that you are not a U.S. resident or U.S. citizen.
@Embee, from that CRA link:
“5. How does my citizenship affect my tax residency?
Canada and virtually all other countries do not tax on the basis of citizenship. The citizenship you hold is generally not relevant in determining your residency for tax purposes.
The U.S. tax system is different from most countries in that it treats all U.S. citizens as U.S. residents for tax purposes no matter where in the world they reside. Therefore, if you are a U.S. citizen, you are a resident of the U.S. for tax purposes even if you hold another citizenship or reside in Canada or any other country.”
So now, after explaining in FAQ#5 that Canada and the rest of the world see citizenship as irrelevant for tax purposes, the CRA then goes on to explain that the US system is essentially nonsensical and fictive (treating nonUS-residents AS IF they were US residents), the CRA has taken on the task of enforcing the nonsensical and fictive under the FATCA IGA. And to explain the basis of the US tax system.
Do they not see how absurd and offensive it is to have our own domestic fisc explaining the tax obligations they are enforcing on behalf of a foreign government – in application to Canadian citizens and Canadian resident taxpayers? The US would laugh itself silly at any suggestion that it should do the same for any other country, within its own borders.
@ badger
The infamous “Flaherty promise” is essentially toast, right? Once the bank identifies an IRS target or a target self identifies then the IRS tax crime becomes a CRA tax crime with the twist that all money extracted/extorted will end up in the US Treasury. I’m feeling the full weight of those bus wheels right now and I’m just not seeing much hope, except ADCS. I’m glad that Joseph Arvay is also taking on the right to die.
@AnonAnon
Regardless of what the FAQ says the actual text of bill C31 requires that the bank
Paragraph B(4) is where they ask for a self-certification, a CLN or a reasonable explanation. So the bank must contact you regarding the indictia and they mustapply the exceptions that apply.
The FAQ explanation was valid for the original text of the IGA, but Bill C31 edited the relevant paragraph to include the quoted text above. The FAQ should have been updated to reflect the revised terms, but it clearly was not.
@WhiteKat says …..July 23, 2014 at 11:36 am just saw your gem:
“Speaking of system designers/computer programmers, I am somewhat surprised we have not had any ‘hints’ of what is going on regarding the computer systems being implemented at either the banks or the CRA by designers/programmers who are actually part of the systems teams”
speaking as a finance systems analyst i would guess its for a variety of reasons…..
1. most Finanial Instititions (FI) IT systems are a real hodgepodge of cutting edge and Jurassic park software products [witness the US Dept of State Oracle DB crash on 20 July affectings 100Ks of “clients” ], various interfaces, various levels of outsourcing agreements and internal teams, white labels interpretations of various global standards (eg EBS upload formats multicash, MT940 x2, BAI etc) . remember approx 2 years ago when some little body shop in india made a change and Natwest, AIB and other large FIs in UK had 100Ks of customers who couldn’t access accounts
2. many small FIs (Canadian Credit unions, UK building societies, etc) may be “behind the curve”…… why should they care if they dont have significant exposure to anything to do with USD?
3, the Sleeping Giant of unaware actual and potential USPs. you can bet a large sum of money that when these USPs start closing accounts,moving business, protesting etc due to discriminatory questions, bombardation with jargon about FATCA etc, this will filter back to marketing depts who will then kick the CEOs/CIOs/CTOs/Legal Directors with “why are we complying with this S*** as its losing us market share”?
in summary whitekat I totally agree that while there is a materially significant proportion of large global compliance complex IT providers who will supinely push solutions to FATCA…….. I put some faith in the market forces . all the Indicia are that everyone only complies because they have to and EVERYWHERE all indicators are that people are building alternative structures to opt out of the US stranglehold on the global financial system and the USD as world reserve currency (BRIC alternative to IMF, agreements to settle in Renminbi Yuan,US citizenship renunciations skyrocketing, etc etc etc)
I think this dismemberment of USD as reserve currency is gradual and only now gathering speed in the making ….. and that is interesting because Rome didnt’ believe it could fall until it did (my history detail is little hazy here but look up roman emperor Honorius ….”emperor of the chickens”….early 5th century AD, and Stilicho etc etc etc)….. the empire assumed that presentation was reality [shades of Obamanation]. and ………………
I am so excited to be part of this history making , seachange swell as we stand up for the ideals of 1776 “no taxation without representation” and remain true to real capitalism as driving total wealth which allows all the fab social programmes that CA, UK, EU, etc have currently.!!!
on the some of the other IBS threads, regarding solomon yue comeback re: Jim Bopp RO suit, I dont worry yet, i think they will come roaring in after summer break but keep up the absolutely inspirational postings plz…………ATB!!!
@Dash, “All three questions: “are you a US person”, “are you a US citizen”, …………………”
Dittos, spot on……its clearly offensive and discriminatory.
@CrystalLondon, Thanks for that and I think your analysis is spot on…….
I really had not thought this out before.
The banks are clearly still in the line of fire of those 30% US with holding fees. By signing the FATCA-IGA it seems to me that the Government of Canada has, at the banks insistence, effectively relinquished whatever protection any previously signed treaties would have afforded the banks.
Does this seem correct to others as well?
REPORT:
Bank: Scotia
Date: Sept. 2014
Status: US born, Canadian registered birth abroad, Canadian parents, left US in infancy, no SSN or US passport, CLN (renunciation 2013)
I had to go in regarding a mortgage. I emailed my personal banking officer that I’d like to do a few other things while there, including presenting my CLN to the bank for their records.
Profile screen brought up and shown to me, FATCA tab at top. Under FATCA screen my profile showed the “Exempt” box checked (prior to telling them of my holding a CLN I believe). On that screen was a list of my ID the bank had, which showed DL from a Canadian province, and SIN. No passport listed, no birth certificate listed.
After discussion, there was no interest by the bank in my CLN, so they do not have it on record. Accounts included two savings, two chequing, RESP, a few mortgages, and a few credit lines. No “investment” accounts. Bank did not seem interested in playing the game.
FWIW
The Mom,
Thanks for the encouraging report. Scotiabank not interested in playing the game. Points for BNS.
@The Mom,
Very interesting! Of course, I’d be afraid to approach any of my FIs to ask about my status, fearing doing so could backfire and I’d be exposing myself.
Two points I forgot to add:
Banking officer asked me if I had received a letter from the bank, and that’s why I had brought in my CLN. I did not receive a letter, however clearly they must exist for personal banking purposes.
Also, this was a personal banking officer, not involved in the investment side, and the only business that I have that could come close to investment is the RESP, however that is a cash account.
If I receive a letter in the future I will post here.
Also forgot to add, and this is important:
It appears that Scotia is determining if a personal banking client is exempt from FATCA reporting PRIOR to any $50,000 account limit being applied, as none of my accounts, nor the aggregate, is anywhere near $50,000.
@Calgary
I’m just wondering if we need a “Brockers Only”, password protected, fingerprint needed, iris scanning mechanism for posting information regarding what the banks are actually doing. Quite possibly they could be in trouble if deemed lenient.
Hi, Charl.
LOL.
As everything else on Brock, we are reporting our own experiences here so others can take that information into account in formulating their own decisions — 97,062 comments since we moved to the “.ca” site. Hopefully, the big banks (and smaller ‘foreign financial institutions’) make business decisions based on their own good research. So, I would say – no.
I actually agree with ‘WhatAmI’ in that I wouldn’t be comfortable going to the bank where I hold my son’s RDSP account to ask about “status”. I was comfortable, though, pushing to get confirmation from the bank where “my and my husband’s” investments reside that they will not turn over to the CRA any of my or my husband’s financial information as we have renounced our U.S. citizenship and, if necessary, will provide our CLNs.
‘The Mom’ went into the bank who has had her/him for a customer regarding her mortgage and, wisely, prepared herself on how she would provide her “US” information if asked. I am grateful for all comments on this post as, similar to the Consulate Report Directory, as all we have here paints a general picture to help others form their own decisions.
Thank you @the Mom for that report. Every scrap of information – and aggregating it here helps countless others.
Re the CLN – I have mine, but have decided not going to present it to the bank (vestigial accts) or to the credit union/s unless forced to – because I wish to see what they will do, and whether I will be asked. Providing more anti-FATCA fodder.
Useful to gather experiences of those who do tell as well as those who don’t!
Excellent idea. Everybody waits until asked, and reports the details here, we can help countless others.
My gut feeling is that every FI will use different procedures, if not down to the branch level, if not even down to the employee level.
That’s no surprise, it also applies to the US consulates, and the IRS!
BC_Doc found this and put it on another thread but this seems like a good place for it too. Could this closure (US citizen in Japan) be FATCA related???
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=146568&p=2185624#p2185624
Probably not. He doesn’t say but I am assuming that he is referring to Citizens Bank USA rather than “Citizens bank of Canada”. Facta imposes very minimal (if any) requirements on US banks. As well I am sure that if the bank could point their finger at regulations they would if only to avoid the customer from getting mad at them.
I opened new accounts at CIBC Investor’s Edge in August. I provided provincial government ID only. No questions about birthplace, only nationality, and no proof of nationality required.
I deal with RBC Dominion Securities.
My advisor is in a different city than where I live (about 6 hours away). They have always known about my US birthplace. In July I dropped off a copy of my CLN.
Today, I received a blank W-8BEN in the mail, along with a request for a copy of my Canadian passport.