On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
@Hdxlch
If any of your family members don’t mind a credit union that doesn’t have a local walk-in office, I found 2 Manitoba credit unions that are non-reporting. They have on-line banking, and are available for Canadian residents Canada-wide, including Quebec. Their high-interest savings accounts have chequing and Ding-Free AccuLink ATM cards.
They are Implicity Financial and Maxa Financial. I would encourage others to ask again in case you get a different answer than I got around the end of May.
@King of the Road, @MuzzledNoMore
I believe credit unions with a local client base that are non-reporting still have to register with FATCA to be deemed-compliant. I believe the IRS_FFI list is simply a list of registered FFIs, which doesn’t mean they are reporting. Non-reporting FFIs have to re-certify every year.
Having said that, I don’t see Implicity or Maxa in the list.
Of 5 credit unions who only allow Canadian residents as clients and responded to my question, 3 turned out to be reporting regardless. I asked them why they are not exempt but I haven’t gotten answers.
I agree there should be a thread where we can list reporting and non-reporting banks and credit unions.
@Muzzled
Thanks. Extraordinary list.
Question: is there a way to ascertain whether a particular listed institution falls into the “reporting” or “non-reporting” category?
@KingOfTheRoad
Things I have tried:
– check their web page to see if their assets are < $175M, as an indication that they may be eligible for the "local bank" exemption
– check their web page to see if their clients are restricted to Canadian residency, as an indication that they may be eligible for the "local client base" exemption
– check their web page after July 1 to see of their application form (if it's online) asks about US tax or citizenship issues
Then,
– phone them to ask (not recommended)
– email them to ask
My first post (been lurking for awhile) . . . saw this yesterday on news 1130 site (Vancouver):
“The Canada Revenue Agency has confirmed a contract was awarded in May of last year to Mobilshred Incorporated, operating as Recall. . . . Recall is headquartered in Georgia (U.S.) — and its legal team says it would go along with any subpoenas issued to it — including any that use the Patriot Act to get information.”
http://www.news1130.com/2014/06/25/canadian-tax-info-could-potentially-be-accessed-by-us-govt-agencies/
@Bee S – wow that is unbelievable….so the “myths” are starting to come out of the woodwork.
@Everyone – my brother just called me to tell me that his credit union in AB just told him that they have a Canada wide regulatory body and they have been told from on high that they MUST ask about everyone’s US status when they open an account at the CU’s. This means ALL CREDIT UNIONS IN CANADA HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THEIR CANADIAN REGULATORY BODY THAT THEY MUST REPORT US PERSONS AFTER JULY 1.
@GwEvil
I assume the text in ALL CAPS is your conclusion from the conversation with your brother? I don’t agree with that (yet).
This means ALL CREDIT UNIONS IN CANADA HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THEIR CANADIAN REGULATORY BODY THAT THEY MUST REPORT US PERSONS AFTER JULY 1.
I would say no, this means if the CU is not non-reporting, then they must have new account opening procedures to get US info when new accounts are opened after June 30th, as per the IGA.
What is the name of your brother’s AB CU?
@WhatAmI – Wildrose CU
“Were you born in the U.S.” ?
http://www.habibcanadian.com/downloads/HCB_Personal_AOF.pdf
See if your credit union, or the credit union you are interested in, has posted online its most recent AGM report, which will contain an up to date list of assets, online. Mine did, and I telephoned to confirm as a follow-up. I do note that our smalltown credit union has assets of around $160 million, so it may not be unreasonable to think that an Edmonton credit union such as Wildrose is at or above the $175 million threshold.
An interesting and useful page over at the Credit Union Central of Canada website,
http://www.cucentral.ca/SitePages/CreditUnionIssues/Fatca.aspx
Bee S, thank you for that CRA data storage info.
Un-freaking-believable.
Today, I checked my file with my TD Account Manager. Though she knows I am also American, she confirmed my file indicates I am Canadian, living in Canada. I suppose TD will have to use this info as nothing indicates otherwise (for the time being, at least). I have also asked my Financial Adviser at a private investment firm to change the information in my file before July 1st to indicate I am Canadian (as I had foolishly told them I was American years ago). They said they would “look into it”.
Since the FATCA law only comes into effect on July 1st, am I within my rights to ask they update my file before then?
@LivingToRenounce,
Re: “Since the FATCA law only comes into effect on July 1st, am I within my rights to ask they update my file before then? ”
Yes, you are within your rights, but don’t expect anyone working for your bank to keep your secret.
@LivingToRenounce
I don’t know how that is being addressed in Canada, but in Germany the so called “know your customer” (KYC) policies generally dictate that any knowledge is to be included in determining whether to report someone or not.
@Mrderessup. your link has a paywall. Here is anothe rone;
http://www.woccu.org/policyadvocacy/currentissues
Thanks, Mr. Dressup and George,
This poses that question:
Intermental Agreements Monitor — Canada’s IGA is a Model 1A (Reciprocal) — Model 1B is non-reciprocal.
Policy and Advocacy from the World Council of Credit Unions gives direction, which includes:
Living to Renounce:
A close friend in the US yesterday received a letter sent to me (was a mailing to address for a few months some time ago) that only referring to a Client Card and what it can be used for. I was robbed in Europe a few weeks back and felt my accounts were in jeopardy so the (same) bank issued me a new client card a few days ago. Yesterday I went into another branch where my addresses, etc were reviewed to try check out that address. It appears that while I had the accounts all showing CDN addresses (I am C born/dual) there were two long ago closed ones with a problematic address lined to the client card which still had that one as well and it couldn’t be removed but that I appeared at no risk of hacking, etc. She was very helpful and unawares of our issues.
So, assuming with that bank that all addresses mesh is problematic. I presume search efforts for connections took place some time ago and with this bank should the client card be reviewed, as opposed to individual accounts, or what readily appears to customers and bank staff online and in their cursory personal data searches I may be in deep doodoo.
I presume edits may be in place where searching for data that RSP and/or mortgage accounts are excluded. In that event I am under threshold-provided those exemptions apply.
Would you agree my self risk assessment has just gone way up?
@Bee S,
Thank you for that invaluable notice re the CRA contract given to Recall, and now our data being subjected to the Patriot Act as a result.
I don’t want to divert this thread, but your point is very important and builds on the FATCA issue.
Another reason to complain to our MPs. And potentially another aspect to a legal challenge re the Harper government’s cavalier treatment of our data and personal privacy – along with FATCA but which now is broader, and extends to ALL Canadian citizen and resident tax information.
I note this older article re some provinces specifically enacting legislation in order to prevent a similar situation http://blog.privacylawyer.ca/2006/07/nova-scotia-passes-usa-patriot-act.html I need to find more recent information. As our income tax has both a federal and provincial component, and the feds process the provincial data (not sure if any different for Quebec?) then wouldn’t this development abridge the provincial legislation above? I don’t see how it could be separate.
So, in terms of the FATCA IGA, I wonder if the feds can sign away and override provincial legislation that aims to protect us ALL against the Patriot Act. And, there is still the issue that credit unions (unless they have agreed to move to federal regulation in order to expand) are provincially regulated. I have not seen that addressed anywhere.
I have been shuffling around my accounts… CIBC… I live outside of Montreal… Blink… Blink.. u missed my town. For withdrawals of over 2K in cash… u have to put in a request & get it the next day… I opened a new joint account at a different branch with a driver’s & social insurance card… usually that was enough… I was asked for my birth card or passport… no reason was given so if u didn’t know… u would just do it without thought. Also.. if u have an atm card… make sure u use it a few times a yr… one of my card… didn’t use over 2 yrs… got drop from the system… I was required to bring 2 pieces of ID to get a new one at the bank…. One should be birth card or passport… innocent suggestion. CIBC head offices has changed alot of the procedures & alot of people in the bank don’t know why.. but some do… told on the down low… something about americans.. they don’t get it either
US_Person_Foreigner,
Amazing they can’t even be upfront with their employees who will soon be deputized to do the dirty work (just doing their job!). I think of Devon: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/expat_tax/comment-page-74/#comment-2018275
KingOfTheRoad: If the credit union’s asset holdings are under $175 million (or is it $178?) it is non-reporting, also if it has 98% local client base. I judged that mine was local by seeing that it was not possible to open an account if you were not resident in Canada. That credit union is on the list of compliant institutions but WhatAmI has explained about that (Thank you, WhatAmI!). My other credit union is not on the list at all and it is about the same size as the other one so not sure what that signifies.
@MuzzledNoMore
Yes, I remind people almost daily that just because a CU has under $175 million, or has a 98% local client base, it doesn’t mean that it _elected_ to be non-reporting. Also, they may offer other services that exclude them from being non-reporting even if they wanted to be. For example, if they offer services to businesses or certain investments (just guessing here, but you get the idea). One CU told me they couldn’t be non-reporting because their parent company’s business excluded it.
The same goes for account balances under $50K. That exemption is also an election a FFI can make or not.
Could this post be made sticky?
Just added a new online U.S. account to my existing online RBC accounts . . . but did so in person at a RBC branch. No questions at all from the teller – or from the online steps – re. U.S. indicia. I figure it’s likely because of one of these four possibilities:
– I am an existing client . . not a new customer
– I already have several online accounts so adding a new one doesn’t bring up any red flags
– The teller didn’t utter a word re. U.S. indicia and I suspect he doesn’t yet know about FATCA
– RBC is taking a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach
@ TomOn,
The top post changes frequently, based on what’s new/important/happening-now. This very important post has been the top sticky post, twice I think, since it was created four days ago, and it may well be again, probably likely so as things are developing in this area. But at all times, it is permanently listed, with its link, in the Sidebar under “Important Information.”
I opened an account at Maxa Financial a month or two ago. At the time, the application form had no mention of US status. Later, I inquired if they would be non-reporting due to having a local client base. I took the following reply as being positive, although the wording is somewhat unclear:
MAXA Financial is considered a Financial Institution with a local client base. We will be complying with the reporting requirements associated with local financial institutions.
I interpreted this as meaning they are non-reporting and will do what is required in the IGA Annex II, Section III A (page 40 of 47).
Today, I see new questions on their application form:
4. Are you a U.S. citizen?
□ No □ Yes
U.S. citizen is defined as an individual with a birth place in the U.S.
If yes, please provide your Individual Taxation Identification Number (TIN): ___________________
5. Are you a U.S. Resident for U.S. tax purposes?
□ No □ Yes
U.S. resident is defined as an individual who has obligations to pay U.S. tax.
If yes, please provide your Individual Taxation Identification Number (TIN): ___________________