643 thoughts on “Please Provide in This Post Approaches Big Canadian Banks Will Use to Establish U.S. Personhood of Account Holders on July 2 2014: Remember— Information provided in casual conversations with account manager is now accepted bank practice in Canada”

1. The Canadian Banking Association updated their FATCA info page on July 20, 2015. For what it’s worth, here it is …
   http://www.cba.ca/en/consumer-information/40-banking-basics/597-fatca-and-the-canada-us-intergovernmental-agreement-iga-information-for-clients-
   To the CBA the IGA is merely an extension to the tax info sharing between Canada and the USA. That couldn’t be more infuriatingly understated. To its victims the FATCA IGA is not an “extension”, it’s an outright, giant-sized overreach.

2. Don’t worry Embee. We are totally destined to win. That is why we are ignored.

3. Because some of you have sent complaints to me on this, I just sent this letter to the Canadian Bankers Association:

   “December 1, 2015

   [XXXXXXXXXX]
   Media Relations Specialist
   Canadian Bankers Association

   Dear Ms. [XXXXXX],

   Could you please pass this email on to your legal department?

   I am the Chair of an organization (Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty) that is funding a lawsuit against Canada’s Attorney General and Minister of National Revenue.

   We argue that the FATCA IGA enabling legislation that your association supports violates Canada’s sovereignty as a nation and the Charter rights of Canadians.

   A key component of the legislation is the transfer of private banking information, without consent, of Canadian citizens deemed by the United States to be “U.S. persons”, to Canada CRA, for subsequent turnover to U.S. IRS.

   Recently it has come to my attention that some of your banks are not advising their customers, when they ask, whether their private banking information has in fact been turned over to CRA for the purpose of transfer to IRS.

   I need to know whether CBA has a position on this issue.

   Do you advise your banks to provide this information, upon request of the customer, or do you advise that this information must be withheld for whatever reason? Does CBA feel that such customer requests are reasonable — or not?

   I am not asking whether the banks will confirm to customer whether private banking data have been passed by CRA to IRS, only whether the data have been passed by the individual bank to CRA for the purpose of transfer to IRS.

   If CBA has no position on this question please confirm.

   Please provide a response by end of business day December 4.

   I will make public CBA’s response.

   Thank you,

   Stephen Kish

   Chair
   Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty”

4. Thanks for that Stephen. As you know, I’m one such bank customer who was told by her bank that they didn’t have that information and to contact the CRA. I took their advice and contacted the CRA ombudsman only to find out that they don’t have that information either. He suggested that I write to the Revenue Minister about it. He also said that if the Revenue Minister didn’t answer my questions to my satisfaction, then I should call or write him back, as it would then become a service related issue – which he could then help me with!

5. Bubblebustin,

   My personal position is that a bank refusing to disclose to a customer whether it has violated the customer’s Charter rights is yet another FATCA-related “harm”

   Documentation of such harms might be helpful in our litigation.

   — Just received this from CBA:

   Hello Mr. Kish,

   Thank you for your email. I am looking into your request.

   Thank you,

   [XXXXX]

6. Has anyone written to the Revenue Minister to ask how an individual can get info on whether their info has been passed over to the IRS? Anyone get a response?

7. Interestingly, according to this CU Central Legislative Bulletin June 10, 2014, Con MP Ted Falk,
   was a director of Steinbach Credit Union http://www.scu.mb.ca/ at the time the Cons crafted and passed the FATCA IGA buried in OmniBill C-31:

   “……Besides all the attention given to the budget implementation bill, Conservative MP Ted Falk,
   who is also a director of Steinbach Credit Union, asked the Minister of Finance if he could
   speak the government’s recent announcement that it “secured commitments from banks to
   offer low-cost accounts and no-cost accounts with some wider audience……””
   http://www.cucentral.ca/Publications1/Legislative%20Bulletin%20-%20June%2010,%202014.pdf

   Wonder how having a CON MP as a CU Director in 2014 affected how the Steinbach Credit Union reacted to FATCA, and then how it treated Canadian citizen and resident accountholders deemed to be “UStaxableserfs”?

   The Steinback CU site says:
   “……. How SCU is dealing with FATCA Legislation

   SCU understands the objectives of the FATCA legislation to identify potential individuals/entities involved in tax evasion. We are diligently reviewing FATCA regulations and the IGAs to determine the impact on our members while maintaining our high standards for privacy. We are working towards compliance regarding data collection starting July 2, 2014 and the first reporting date is May 2, 2015.

   We are confident that the vast majority of our members will not be affected by this legislation…..”….
   http://www.scu.mb.ca/news-and-more/fatca-compliance

8. @ badger

   So, if you refuse to answer, you will be deemed a criminal & all of your info goes to the IRS.

   I’d like solidarity on this. What if EVERYONE (US person or not) refused to answer, claiming invasion of privacy? Wouldn’t that be a HUGE dumping of work for these banks as well as the tax guys at the IRS? That would backlog them for decades!

9. Jane,

   That kind of solidarity would be wonderful and, I think, would work. Too many (people, banks and countries), though, really do believe *that if you have nothing to hide, loss of privacy and the right to that privacy is absolutely justified*. Seems to me that we’ll not get those hard-won rights back as we so easily surrender them, one by one.

10. @Jane, solidarity on that matter would be wonderful.

    I myself am no longer a UScitizen but have kept one account with a major Canadian bank (in addition to keeping the majority of my and family savings elsewhere – with a major credit union) partly to see what/when/whether the bank will ask me anything FATCA related. The bank account is kind of like a canary in the coal mine, because I don’t like the bank and don’t want to continue to have anything to do with them, but have decided to keep a vestige of something there so that I can report it here at IBS if anything comes up – and perhaps take other steps in protest. I have a CLN, but I haven’t been asked for it, and I’m not going to offer it up. I don’t think I’m the only one who chooses to help keep tabs on the banks this way in order to keep apprised of how they are implementing FATCA.

    One large credit union I belong to knows very well that I was born a US citizen and was one until more recently, because I spoke to the account rep and the manager (at length) back when the whole FBAR and FATCA debacle started to surface in the Canadian media in 2011. They know that I was taking steps to renounce/relinquish, but never asked me if I had finally done it, or for proof. The other large credit union hasn’t asked either.

    I was thinking that if we were asked, we could refuse to answer anything other than stating that we were Canadian citizens and residents – which is all the bank needs to know – and then immediately file a complaint with the federal Privacy Commissioner that we were even being asked for that personal information (ex. birthplace and other citizenship).

11. I thought it was ironic that the Canadian gov’t claimed they couldn’t release information related to Ted Cruze’s parents due to “Canadian privacy laws”…yet they are happy to blow all of that away when it comes to throwing their own US/CA citizens under the FATCA bus?

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/01/08/ted-cruz-mother-birth-certificate/

12. Jane,

    Hard to take in, isn’t it, Jane? The hypocrisy.

    Cruz says he has never had a Canadian passport. That could easily be so in the period of time he lived in Canada. Did, though, his US parents / mother register their son as a US Birth Abroad (though it is said not to make a difference if the child *acquired* a US Citizenship at birth — I would like that absolutely confirmed and stated)?

13. Just had another letter from my UK Building Society (bank) asking me to complete their own form (have to commend them for not using the US one) to declare whether or not I am a US person (I’m not) and to provide a certified CLN if not.

    I had the same letter and form last year (summer?) and completed and returned it then as asked. When I phoned to query why I was sent this again she checked my records which indeed did list me as not a US person. She said several people had called to report repeat requests and to ignore today’s letter. She thought perhaps the programme that was meant to capture US persons was picking up people who had already completed the NO form. Hmmmm- wonder how many people’s account info got sent to HMRC/IRS by mistake. Oh well, at least it makes more work for the IRS.

14. “and to provide a certified CLN if not”

    What about people who gave up green cards? Do they have to provide certified CLNs?

    What about people who never had any US connection at all? Do they have to provide certified CLNs?

15. Old English. What a bizarre letter to receive. ” provide a certified CLN if not”.

16. I didn’t realise exact wording would be wanted. I was just trying to convey the flavour – not very helpful I guess. The form is entitled ‘Confirmation that you are not a US Citizen or US Tax Resident’. (their capitals). It asks you to list ‘countries, excluding the UK, you are liable to pay tax in and include any relevant Tax Identification Numbers’. Asks you to tick boxes if you are signing as a parent or guardian of a child under 16 or as a person holding power of attorney. Then there is the question ‘what do you need to provide to support this information’ and a list with such things as passport, identity card, financial statement, driving licence, etc.

    Finally it says “Also, if you were born in the United States, you need to provide a copy of your ‘Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States’ in addition to one of the above” (one of the above being the supporting information). No option for a reasonable explanation if you do not have a CLN. If you return the form by post (rather than going into a branch) then you can only send ‘certified copies of your documentation’.

    As Alison Christian points out in her paper, green card holders or a US person with a non-US birthplace could choose not to identify themselves as being liable to pay tax in the US and therefore not FATCA’d.

    Also, there is an image of an open padlock next to the statement ‘Use of my information’ with text below saying ‘the information I provide will be used for the purposes of complying with the International tax regulations and may be passed to HMRC’. Presumably signing the form then exempts the bank from complying with UK data protection laws… Makes my blood boil!

17. “I was just trying to convey the flavour”

    OK. I thought the actual wording was atrocious the way you wrote it. Laws, IRS rules, and some bank policies really are that atrocious.

18. Prior to July 1, 2014, I closed my checking and savings accounts at TD. Then proceeded to open accounts at LCB FATCA exempt credit union. I kept a Visa card at TD with a high limit in case of emergency when travelling. The balance is paid in full every month so TD doesn’t make any money off this.

    Today, I went into the local branch to pay my TD Visa credit card. They were doing Customer Service surveys to see how “comfortable” we customers are. I told the representative that I would fill out the form but it might take me awhile. I wrote a note on the form stating that I was not at all comfortable. I noted that I had closed all my accounts at TD except for the Visa card. Then wrote that my accounts were now at a credit union even though I had renounced my “US personhood” and was now 100% Canadian. When the rep saw my form she looked very “uncomfortable”.

    This is a good opportunity to let TD know just how “comfortable” we are with their FATCA policies. It is anonymous. Hope some Brockers out there have an opportunity to communicate with their banks as well.

    As an after note, I will likely get rid of this TD visa card soon.

19. From Lynne at Maple Sandbox, passing on info from Keith Redmond;
    http://maplesandbox.ca/2016/the-fatca-hunt-is-on-in-canada/
    http://maplesandbox.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/BMO-Letter-Page-1.jpg

20. “Effective July 1, 2014, Canadian legislation requires Canadian financial institutions to identify, document and report relevant information on accounts held by U.S. persons to Canada Revenue Agency. This includes all business entities operating accounts in Canada.”

    Bank of Montreal is a business entity operating accounts in Canada. Therefore accounts held by Bank of Montreal are included in accounts held by U.S. persons. Therefore Canadian financial institutions are required to identify, document and report relevant information on accounts held by Bank of Montreal to Canada Revenue Agency.

    “The undersigned certifies:
    That the FATCA Entity Classification Type (FECT) for
    Bank of Montreal (insert Legal Name)
    (hereinafter called the ‘Business’) is”
    [various kinds of foreign entities and various kinds of US entities, but no possible kind of Canadian entity — though this is based on an assumption that Bank of Montreal is a Canadian entity not a foreign one]

    “If the undersigned is not able to confirm today the US Citizenship or US Residency of the owners/partners who have a 25% or greater beneficial ownership of the Buiness, the undersigned is required to provide this information to the Bank within 90 days; otherwise the Business owner/partner and account information will be reported to CRA.”

    So Bank of Montreal has 90 days in which to confirm that Bank of Montreal’s shareholders hold US Citizenship or US Residency. If Bank of Montreal can’t confirm this, for example if too many Bank of Montreal shareholders might hold Canadian Citizenship and Canadian Residency, Bank of Montreal shareholders and account information will be reported to CRA.

    Oh noes! Bank of Montreal’s information will be reported to CRA! Bank of Montreal had better run and hide. Maybe the world’s biggest tax haven would be a good place for Bank of Montreal to run to.

21. Not sure where to put this, but recently noticed some interesting banking trends in Hungary:

    http://www.activistpost.com/2016/09/hungary-becomes-first-european-nation-ban-rothschild-banks.html?utm_source=Activist+Post+Subscribers&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=c773d12627-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_term=0_b0c7fb76bd-c773d12627-387996409

    Which states, “One of the banks owned by the Rothschild group (the biggest banking group in the world) is the International Monetary Fund (IMF), AKA ’Imposing Misery and Famine’. Not only does the group make money off usurious interest rates at the misfortune of crumbling economies, it literally owns governments and people of power. Because it’s nearly impossible to escape the clutches of the banking group, news of IMF being booted from Hungary is being heralded as a victorious happening.”

22. And what does the above comment have to do with FATCA and banking: I guess I am among those who suspect that FATCA is just the tip of the iceberg – part of a bigger scarier global picture. Please see the following regarding the International Monetary Fund:

    https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/tag/foreign-account-tax-compliance-act-fatca/

    Which begins by saying, IMF recommends indebted governments confiscate citizens’ assets.

23. @PatCanadian
    Thats SCAREY

24. “One of the banks owned by the Rothschild group (the biggest banking group in the world) is the International Monetary Fund (IMF),”

    Is that right-wing propaganda or left-wing propaganda? As offensive as the IMF sometimes is, we don’t need this garbage. Part of it is anti-Semitism and part is just claptrap. Keep this up and Brock will look like a bunch of lunatics.

25. Good for you Norman Diamond. Calling a spade a spade. My reaction to pat Canadian’s post was WTF does this have to do with IBS. I agree that the post is simply bullshit. Polly- do you believe everything you read on the Internet? I hope not.