On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
This looks like a useful summary of the different statuses that could apply to a credit union;
‘TAX ALERT – FATCA AND CANADIAN CREDIT UNIONS’
April 1, 2015
‘FATCA and Canadian Credit Unions’
http://www.bdo.ca/en/Library/Services/Tax/pages/Tax-Alert-FATCA-and-Canadian-Credit-Unions.aspx
Excerpt:
“……..”….
Best read in entirety.
Sorry,
Excerpt here:
“…Credit Unions
………..Generally, Canadian credit unions are considered Canadian Financial Institutions under the IGA. There are however, three general exceptions that may be applicable and that would allow a Canadian credit union to be considered a non-reporting Canadian Financial Institution. If a credit union can meet the requirements of one of these exceptions, its obligations under FACTA will be much less stringent. These three exceptions are:
the Local Bank exception
the Local Client Base exception, and
the Low Value Account exception.
There is also a specific exception for a Central Cooperative Credit Society (CCCS). However, as a CCSS primarily provides support to, and services for, member credit unions, it will have limited applicability. ………………………………………..”
RE: Coastal Community Credit Union
When I spoke with them some time back, CCCU said that they were Local Client Based therefore had the reduced reporting requirements for FATCA. This means they report only non residents of Canada deemed to be US persons, not Canadian residents. Sometimes one has to talk to the branch manager as the employees don’t always know much about FATCA. Even then there can be confusion. I’ve had FI employees have to do research and call me back on these questions.
if you are going to be checking on the potential credit union’s “local client base” status it would be a good idea to know exactly the definition of “local client base” and the ins and outs associated with it.
when i first started asking van city i dealt with the branch’s assistant manager and she was insistant that they were a fatca reporting credit union. i went over her head to the branch manager who after a bit of conversation said she would check “with down town”
she called my back the next day and confirmed that yes indeed van city was considered “local client based” and would not be reporting members to the cra
that being said when i opened my account all they wanted was my b.c. drivers licese and a secondary i.d. (i used my big 5 visa card) and was in and out in under 10 minutes 🙂
RE: Coastal Community Credit Union
I called them today and now they confirm they are fully reporting for FATCA!
@PatCanadian, “I called them today and now they confirm they are fully reporting for FATCA!”
I have been looking at this very closely in the EU where language is key….
A “Local Client Base” will BE “fully reporting” but you have to understand what that means.
Get the document here;
https://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/pdf/FATCA-eng.pdf
Go to page 40 and you will see what a Local Client Base firm MUST do reporting and due dilingence with respect to FATCA;
“Beginning on or before July 1, 2014, the Financial Institution must have policies and procedures, consistent with those set forth in Annex I, to prevent the Financial Institution from providing a Financial Account to any Nonparticipating Financial Institution and to monitor whether the Financial Institution opens or maintains a Financial Account for any Specified U.S. Person who is not a resident of Canada (including a U.S. Person that was a resident of Canada when the Financial Account was opened but subsequently ceases to be a resident of Canada) or any Passive NFFE with Controlling Persons who are U.S. residents or U.S. citizens who are not residents of Canada;”
AND
“Such policies and procedures must provide that if any Financial Account held by a Specified U.S. Person who is not a resident of Canada or by a Passive NFFE with Controlling Persons who are U.S. residents or U.S. citizens who are not residents of Canada is identified, the Financial Institution must report such Financial Account as would be required if the Financial Institution were a Reporting Canadian Financial Institution (including by following the applicable registration requirements on the IRS FATCA registration website) or close such Financial Account;”
——
So YES, a Local Client Base credit union or other FI WILL report any US Person to the USA the moment they become non-resident in Canada.
Personally I believe the best way to flesh out the situation is what mettlemen went through.
1. Do they ask a “simple” question on citizenship and you are able to say Canadian.
2. If they ask Country of birth, I would be very cautious based on EU experience.
3. Is a drivers license all thats needed?
@George
Thank you George, that clears up the two different answers I got from CCCU “A “Local Client Base” will BE “fully reporting” but you have to understand what that means.”
“So YES, a Local Client Base credit union or other FI WILL report any US Person to the USA the moment they become non-resident in Canada.” But they won’t be reporting the US person while resident in Canada.
I understand what you are saying and agree. Unfortunately all this complicated FATCA legislation is very confusing to ordinary folks trying to have a local bank account and even to FI employees.
@PatCanadian, “I understand what you are saying and agree. Unfortunately all this complicated FATCA legislation is very confusing to ordinary folks trying to have a local bank account and even to FI employees.”
In this environment the safe path is never ever admit or say anything about having been a USC. Never ever discuss place of birth, never ever talk about relatives……
Don’t ask, don’t tell……..
RE INVESTING:
Credential Financial Inc., the investing company associated with Vancity in BC, appears to be fully FATCA reporting with no exemption status. I spoke with a representative who says they ask the usual questions about US citizenship, US place of birth, etc. and report to CRA on any reportable accounts of US persons. This even though Vancity credit union has Local Client Based exemption.
Where do we invest? I have renounced and could invest with them but do not wish to do so. I object to investing with any FI who turns over sensitive financial information on suspect US persons to CRA who then gives to US IRS!
This is a whole new question to investigate in our post FATCA world.
Do as BC Doc suggested. Are you a U.S. person? “no”. Where were you born? ” Montreal”
@Don has just found a link to a BBC podcast about “World Check”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02z7yf3
World Check is a company that generates comprehensive customer profiles. Banks have quietly started to consult these profiles to assess the risk they take if they provide banking services to a client. (Banks face severe penalties if they serve anyone involved in financing terrorism… so World Check offers banks a convenient way to do a sort of “threat credit check” on customers).
The podcast explores how innocent British Islamist groups have summarily been dumped as customers of a bank without explanation. That’s a travesty, but that’s not my point.
Listen to this statement from World Check (at 14:46 in the podcast):
”[For banks] we also provide secondary IDENTIFYING INFORMATION ON INDIVIDUALS such as DATES and PLACE OF BIRTH….”
And here’s my point.
If banks routinely were to start injecting World Check profile data into customer files, inadvertently but instantly they will have an electronically searchable record of place of birth. And to further reduce “risk” for a bank, what could that possibly be used for?
A friend who has absolutely no connection to U.S. asked her branch manager at BMO about FATCA yesterday. She said he told her BMO is reporting g to IRS because of the close relationship between the two countries. It is a way of helping the IRS find tax dodgers.
She told him the information goes to CRA first. She asked him why information on assets, transactions and account numbers are being reported if this is about taxes. She asked him why they are reporting on Canadian citizens who have lived in Canada for four decades.
He could not answer her questions–but told her he knew more than the teller. She told him her friend knows far more than he does and that he should familiarize himself with the true implications of FATCA.
She said he seemed uncomfortable from the moment she first asked about FATCA and really did not want to have the conversation.
And why is there no due process involved in this data gathering and turning over to the CRA then to the IRS, Mr. Bank Manager?
Blaze they all need to be made uncomfortable extremely uncomfotable
I posted this at the Canadian Money Forum as well. The last line of my post is the one I found interesting.
In my quest for something that might help convince the bank to free me of my USA connections, I came across this service from Citizenship and Immigration Canada. Under the Access to Information act, you can request copies of every document they have with your name on it. It only costs $5.00 and takes less than a month. They e-mailed me PDF copies. If you need a certified copy of the original, they will get that for you, but it costs extra. Some of the documents they had:
Application For Registration of Birth Abroad
A letter confirming the application
The Certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad
My application for ” Declaration of Retention ( of Canadian Citizenship ) Under Sections 4 and 5
And a few more that I’m not sure what they are.
Maybe someone out there in “Oh My God Land” might be missing some. It can’t hurt.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/requests-atip.asp
Something else I found on the application for registration of birth abroad instructions to applicant. I highlighted the part I found interesting.
“REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD-INSTRUCTIONS TO APPLICANT (1954)
If there is in the country in which the child was born, a Canadian Embassy, or Legation, or a Canadian Consulate or Vise Consulate, or a Canadian High Commissioners Office, or Trade Commissioners Office, send two signed copies of the application to that office.
If there is no such office in the country in which the child was born, mail one signed copy to the Canadian Citizenship Registration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration, Ottawa.
The application will be investigated and if it is accepted, you will receive a Certificate of Registration of Birth issued by the Dept. of Citizenship and Immigration. If it is not accepted, you will be so informed.
Under the provisions of Section 4 of the Canadian Citizenship Act, a person who is born outside of Canada after the 1st day of January, 1947, shall cease to be a Canadian Citizen upon the expiration of one year after he attains the age of 21 years unless after attaining that age and before the expiration of the said year, he asserts his Canadian Citizenship by a declaration of retention thereof, registered in accordance with the regulations. In addition if he is a National or a Citizen of a country other than Canada, he is required to divest himself of that other Nationality or Citizenship by making a declaration of alienage , or as otherwise provided.”
@ Snub In the past Canada did not allow dual citizenship, that changed in 1970s. For details on the changes in Canadian citizenship laws see:.
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/bp445-e.htm
“Citizenship and Immigration Canada. Under the Access to Information act, you can request copies of every document they have with your name on it.
[…]
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/departm…uests-atip.asp”
Would it be this:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/requests-atip.asp
@heartsick…Thankyou for the excellent link. If I’m reading it right, prior to 1977 you could not hold dual citizenship. I applied for my retention of Canadian citizenship in 1975. So at that time I could not be a dual. According to the IGA you can provide an “explanation of non U.S. citizenship”. My explanation to the bank would be that was the law in 1975. That is why I don’t have a CLN.
For some of us, the only hope we have is convincing the bank we are Canadian only, despite our place of birth. I have held many long conversations with many bank employees. Most are unaware of the hardships the FATCA/IGA law is having on people. We need to inform them and some are listening. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. For those in my situation ( Born to Canadian Military parents, stationed in the U.S., returned home at 3 weeks old, never went back) or similar situations, your best bet is with the bank employees. Some of them may hate the U.S. Government as much as I (we?) do.
@ Norman Diamond……….Yes, your link works, mine doesn’t. I’m blaming the computer. Maybe someone can fix the link in my post.
Fixed, Snub. Thanks, Norman Diamond.
@snub. If it was me I would pay the small extra fee and get official certified documents.
Why? People do judge books by their cover so its a small price to pay
This may have been posted before. Forgive me if it has.Someone….Maybe not even on this site, was looking for a list of financial institutions that are Fatca compliant. This is the IRS site that has that, and covers everywhere in the world.
FATCA Foreign Financial Institution (FFI) List
Search and Download Tool
The FFI List is updated the first day of each month. It includes all foreign financial institutions and branches that are in approved status at the time the list is compiled.
Financial Institutions in approved status as of August 25, 2015
http://apps.irs.gov/app/fatcaFfiList/flu.jsf
Royal Bank Direct Investing form:
Citizenship / SIN Information:
Are you a Canadian Citizen? yes/no
SIN #
Are you a U.S. Citizen or a U.S. resident for tax purposes? yes/no
SSN #
U.S. Citizens or U.S. residents for tax purposes will need to complete a W-9 form (applicable to TFSA and Investment Accounts only)
So….not asking for place of birth. You just supply them with your SIN, tell them you are a Canadian citizen and not a U.S. citizen or resident, and you are good to go. And that is the way it should be.
Actually that’s not how it should be.
If you tell them you’re a Canadian citizen, you shouldn’t have to tell them whether or not you’re also a foreign country’s citizen.
Possession of an SIN is not directly related to being a Canadian citizen. If you have an SIN and you’re opening an account at a Canadian financial institution, it seems appropriate to provide your SIN even if you have a visa for temporary or permanent residence.
If you’re not a Canadian citizen, they should ask what citizenship or nationality is recorded in the travel document that you used in entering Canada. For example if your passport says you’re a US non-citizen national, that would be an appropriate answer. For example, if you used a travel document issued by the Japanese government saying you’re a North Korean citizen[*], that would be an appropriate answer, though I don’t know if the Canadian financial institution might refuse to open an account.
[* If you’re born in Japan to parents who were born in Japan, you’re still not automatically Japanese. If one or two of your parents were Japanese at the time of your birth, you’re probably Japanese. If you or your parents or your grandparents were given Japanese citizenship early in the 1900’s, then brought here as slaves during World War II, and then stripped of Japanese citizenship after the peace settlement, then Japan says you have whichever citizenship you or your parents or your grandparents chose at the time of being stripped of Japanese citizenship. At that time North Korea had a stronger economy than South Korea, and the Japanese government was singing together with the North Korean government the praises of emigrating to North Korea, so that was a common choice of victims at the time. It doesn’t matter if you’ve never entered either Korea and if your parents also never entered either Korea, that’s what Japan assigns to you.]