On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
It seems to me the best way to deal with a TFSA is to keep shtum about it. TFSAs were made ‘non-reportable ‘ for good reason.
@badger
Same problem when I tell people… so I use… double taxed… taking from Canada… Best one I use… US wants me to treat ALL my crap as it was in the US… make an oops… instead of a few dollars penalty… they want it all… they want to clean out US persons so all of us will have to have our hand out to the Canadian gov’t to survive… That usually perks them right up with anger… also.. cause US is so close to Canada… almost every other person is a US person… without even knowing it…
@US_Foreign_Person, @Badger,
PFICs was partly what made me cancel an appointment at the US consulate to show them a lifetime of records (school, work, etc) required to prove I had lived an entire life outside the USA, so that I could apply for a SIN, so that I could attempt to become compliant for all those years of not living in the USA.
Having 3 children each with their own RESP, all invested in mutual funds, along with RRSPs invested in mutual funds, and a fair amount of movement between funds over recent years, I realized I was facing a HUGE compliance headache.
Rather than bending over for it, I decided to give the IRS the middle finger instead.
@USForeignPerson, I like how you explain the situation to your fellow Canadians. Good for you for bringing out the anger in them.
re: “US is so close to Canada… almost every other person is a US person… without even knowing it…”, this would be funny if it were not for the horrors of what it means to be US’s person…more like US’s B!+c#
For Snub and others who are just awakening to the reality of being US’s person, and for those of us who’ve seen this before but want to laugh while we cry:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/01/22/rick-mercer-report-foreign-accounts-tax-compliance-act/
@WhiteKat
Not just one bird… but 2… See what happens when we played by reasonable rules.. they go & make up bs ones & keep it a secret to screw us all… The US is also violating my rights as a Canadian from Quebec… where are my forms in French? I demand that all written correspondence from them be in french… In Quebec they made a big deal about the word pasta but don’t say crap about this…that one was frigging embarassing… like they totally had nothing to do but pick on english words…
ooops….SSN is for US’s persons, SIN is for Canada’s persons.
@US_Foreign_Person, Someone sued Air Canada successfully because the flight attendant could not take an order for 7-up in French. Maybe you could sue the Canadian government for not insisting that your US forms that the Canadian government obviously agrees you should be filling out for a foreign government (as evidenced by its willingness to hand over the details of your Canadian bank accounts to American authorities) are not available in French.
Surely filling out foreign income and asset forms properly, considering the outrageous foot faults for minor penalties, is more critical than being able to order a 7-up in French while flying on the flag carrier and largest airline of Canada.
@Snub
The balance banks are reporing now is from Dec. 31, 2014 (resp. the balance on the day the account was closed, if it was closed during 2014). Reducing your account balance now will only affect what’s being reported in 2016 for this year.
@WhiteKat
There’s a french name for 7-up… I just call it that all my life… I thought of making a complaint… I am in & out of Canada… depending on family or work situations… I can’t follow up properly on it… Plus I don’t think they will take my complaint seriously… they pick & choose the stupid crap they will pursue… some are so stupid… that I cringe when I read about it…
Interesting comment over at Canadian Money Forum from Nononymous.
I did consider renouncing my US citizenship, even had an appointment at the consulate three years ago. I decided not to because I was basically too lazy and stubborn to deal with the five years of returns and reporting that is required to “log out” of the US tax system. I’ve since learned that many people ignore this, just renounce the citizenship without bothering with taxes, and the IRS is far too busy and disorganized to ever contact them – probably because no money would ever be owing in 99 percent of the cases. With that in mind I’m tempted to go through with it and renounce, but of course the fee was raised from $450 to $2350 (USD) last year. That annoyed me enough that I’m sticking with “civil disobedience” for now – renewing the passport to prevent border grief on those rare occasions when I travel south, not renouncing the citizenship, and remaining completely non-compliant on all tax and reporting (FinCEN/FBAR) requirements. As long as I live in Canada and keep my assets in Canada, there is nothing the US can do to collect a penny from me (for now, at any rate).
Not everyone agrees with him. He has an interesting approach in that he renewed his passport but is still confident there is little they can or will do. What a colossal waste of time andmoney this whole witchhunt has turned out to be.
@PortlandPLC
I have heard of a few people who have renounced without doing their taxes too. I think one of the first places the IRS might look one day is that list of renouncers. Besides this, FATCA hasn’t even started yet. I wonder what will happen when the information begins to flow? I know many here have said if they get a letter they will throw it away. As a dual in Canada, methinks one has enough security because Canada has sworn it will not help America collect the taxes and I am pretty sure that includes the fact they will also not hand over any Canadian citizens. But the information will be handed over. As for other countries- I think England and Germany for example, will help America a lot. In some places accounts are being frozen. So maybe it depends….
@WhiteKat, sometimes the hidden middle finger may be most rational choice depending on one’s circumstances.
Update! So I went back to the bank a few days ago, told them that there was a law way back when that said if I didn’t apply to keep my U.S. Citizenship at age 25 it was automatically renounced. Told them I had obtained legal council that said I should not sign the W9 and that they could not freeze my accounts. I told them I needed more time for my council to dig up more proof. And so forth. They than asked if I would be able to obtain a Canadian passport if I applied for one. Hell yes, I said. I have Certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad. I made up a few stories just to make them happy, then withdrew a huge amount of cash out of my account. Today I went to the bank machine and was able to withdraw cash, so my accounts have not been frozen. Yet.
Way to go Snub! 🙂 As Red Green used to say, “Keep your stick on the ice. We’re all pulling for you.”
Polly says:
As a dual in Canada, methinks one has enough security because Canada has sworn it will not help America collect the taxes and I am pretty sure that includes the fact they will also not hand over any Canadian citizens.
Once again a floundering hand emerges from engulfing seawater in fond and desperate hopes to grasp at one fabled slimy waterlogged plank, detritus from a ship that long ago smashed up on the rock of US exceptionalism. Caca-nada has “sworn” nothing. The 2011 Flaherty doctrine amounted little more than using presumed provisions of existing treaty as convenient verbal graffiti. (PS – Flaherty is dead.)
Contemplate one alternative: if extraterritorial banks comply with US reporting requirements, then those same banks can be motivated to collect whatever is deemed owing to the US government. Bank of Mattress always excepted.
Contemplate another alternative: officials or courts whimsically reinterpret existing treaty or actually revise it. (Enjoy your new right to die?)
Contemplate a third alternative: overnight implement some new simple regulatory approach to handover. (Ever heard of an Order in Council?)
Contemplate a fourth: a special extraction squad renditions a lucrative miscreant to the southern side of the presumptive border, while Caca-nada waves goodbye: “So sorry, US person under US jurisdiction. Not our business.”
So play the gamut of scenarios or ostrichisize self in a single reified mantra.
Caca-nada has just manifested startling disrespect for “dual” critterzens and relishes the prospect of stripping whomever of those that it will.
While capsizing naked amid the swirls of wreckage … become a goof in the gouffre.
Sauve qui peut.
@usxcanada
This could be. One doesn’t know what worst case might turn out to comprise. 🙁
Here’s what the CRA (currently) has to say about it. I’ve no idea whether it’s covered by Canadian law in any way or may be changed at a moment’s notice, as usxcanada suggests. Also note that those who acquired Canadian citizenship after the US tax liability arose are not protected by this policy.
“If I am assessed tax or a related penalty by the U.S., will the CRA assist the U.S. to collect it?
While the Canada–U.S. tax treaty says that Canada may assist the U.S. to collect certain taxes, it also says that the CRA will not assist the IRS to collect your U.S. tax liability if you were a Canadian citizen when the liability arose. This is true whether or not you were also a U.S. citizen at the time.”
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/fq-eng.html#q2-22
Snub
You do realze that you need a new bank
Also if you do not have a passport and are not traveling you should apply for one now but without birthplace
You desperately need a citizenship document that does notshow pob
Also your best hope is adcs so please donate
@GwEvil asked on June 4:
“@george – I would be very very surprised if the State Department agreed with you on that point. Can you please find something that states that someone born to foreign army [personnel] stationed in the US are designated as American citizens? That would be extremely unusual.”
The grant of US citizenship jus soli applies wherever the parents (both of them) are not subject to US jurisdiction. The only cases where that is true is (1) foreign diplomats on the blue list (there is a “white list” for support staff not entitled to personal immunity, and (2) foreign military forces at war against the USA.
This means that children of consular officers, born in the USA, are citizens. Children of friendly forces, born in the USA, are citizens, and so on.
Interestingly, children born to diplomats who are not attributed US citizenship at birth may be entitled to green cards. http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/other-ways-get-green-card/green-card-person-born-foreign-diplomat-united-states/green-card-person-born-united-states-foreign-diplomat
More generally:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=diplomatic%20blue%20list%20usa
Tuaua v. United States, the DC Circuit Court decision relating to noncitizen nationals and, perhaps, to all statutory (non-14th Amendment) US citizens is of some peripheral interest. It seems to validate (at least in dicta) the annulment of US citizenship of persons born or naturalized in a territory and made citizens under treaty or Organic Law — as was the case with Filipinos (who, like Native Americans, were protégés, not citizens, at the time). Persons born or naturalised in Puerto Rico are already “special”: while resident there they are subject only to a “mirror tax” on their PR income.
Add to the above: the child born in the to a blue-list diplomat married to a US citizen is a US citizen at birth. (The citizen-spouse does not have diplomatic immunity and does not get a sales-tax exemption card either; but neither to diplomats of EU countries assigned to Washington get tax exemption cards, as a matter of reciprocity since US diplomats are not exempted from European VAT (except on goods they import themselves).)
@andy05 – ok I concede. It just seems so wrong, though. I guess they think they are being so generous in conferring a huge “favour” on the child born on their soil when in fact they are doing nothing but burdening them with the worst taint imaginable!
GwEvil,
We have to always keep in mind that this is the same country / the same people who stated (in blind patriotism!) to the Washington, DC immigration/nationality lawyer I hired regarding how I could rid my son of what the US defined his automatically acquired US citizenship…
They absolutely think they are granting a huge favour. I want CHOICE, not someone else’s definition of a *precious* favour regarding an acquired US citizenship as in yours and my son’s situations.
@Calgary
Its as if they were saying that they have more of an interest in your son`s welfare than HIS OWN MOTHER! In reality- they couldn’t give a shit. YOU are the one who is watching out that he has a roof over his head and food to eat. Not them.
Polly,
It applies to all of us — they couldn’t give a shit!
Something COULD be done about the situation for *accidental Americans* / the *non-meaningfuls* (INCLUDING the right of parents, guardians and trustees to act on behalf of those with *requisite capacity*) — CHOICE or CLAIM to US citizenship if facts indicate. Why not?