On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
@george – I would be very very surprised if the State Department agreed with you on that point. Can you please find something that states that someone born to foreign army personell stationed in the US are designated as American citizens? That would be extremely unusual.
I tried to register at CMF but was rejected.
There is so much to say. If Snub had inquired at the age of 20 or so, he would have been told that he was no longer a US citizen. As we know, the rules were then changed.
The IGA states that a reasonable explanation why he doesn’t have a CLN plus a self certification should satisfy the bank. He should be signing a W8-Ben not a W9. He should not try to get a SS number under any circumstances. (Imagine the hoops!)
He should move everything to the Credit Union ASAP. If the bank then gives his account info to CRA->IRS, there isn’t much IRS can do. I hope Snub gets to see some of these comments before he or she does something silly and expensive.
http://www.badenremembered.com/storyarchive.php?Born-Abroad-3
Does this remedy that?
http://blog.lostcanadian.com/2013/07/vancouver-observer-canadian-military.html says
and…
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=365&t=5
Is that child born to *Armed Forces personnel* also a US citizen if born on US soil?
http://immigration.findlaw.com/citizenship/u-s-citizenship-through-parents-or-by-birth.html
Citizenship by Being Born in the United States
What are *other recognized government officials from foreign countries*?
Help, citizenshipsolutions.ca!
I married in the late 90s, and changed my SIN to my married name. I used my Reg. of Birth Abroad, and my (then) BC DL. I wonder if the changes noted above were due to security changes after Sept. 11, 2001.
GwEvil –
Re: I’m pretty sure that military brats can’t claim citizenship of the countries their parents happened to be stationed in when they were born or that would open up a huge can of worms for all countries around the world.
Consider this relevant sentence from a recent interesting article in a publication that should be decent on its fact-checking, Bloomberg BusinessWeek:
The U.S. and Canada are the only developed countries that grant birthright citizenship.
Chinese Maternity Tourists and the Business of Being Born American
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-13/chinese-maternity-tourists-and-the-business-of-being-born-american
@usxcanada – that does not address the issue of stationed military personnel having a child while on US soil which I still maintain would not be granted US citizenship due to their special circumstances similar to diplomats
@Gwevil, IF you do not want to be mightily pissed off, then do not read the following.
Trust me, you are going to get royally pissed off……….its actually worse I am giving you the readers digest version with available online links………
In the beginning…………..Military Personnel when they are formally in their Military Capacity in another country are governed by what are called Status of Forces Agreements (SOFA) sometimes called Visiting Forces Agreements.
With SOFA……think comfy couch…..think TD……….
The International Security Advisory Board which is part of the US State Department, prepared “Report on
Status of Forces Agreements” dated January 16, 2015.
I DO NOT want to provide a direct link from this site as I think that is bad practice.
Google “Report on Status of Forces Agreements” dated January 16, 2015.
The person in question is wondering if a child born to a Canadian Military family in the USA would be “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” which would mean they get US Citizenship.
IF a Military Family was posted to the Canadian Diplomatic Mission in the USA or to the United Nations, think the US TV Series Due South, then it is clear they would not be subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
But my dear friend Gwevil……..you forgot one teeny tiny matter about that place due south, they are EXCEPTIONAL.
What is a KEY PROBLEM amongst SOFA agreements that this advisory board for the US State Department has determined? This is going to sound very familiar to you……
“U.S. negotiators ask for far reaching immunities for U.S. military personnel and activities in the
host country, while being effectively barred from offering the same immunity –or even a reduced
version–to host country militaries’ activities in the United States. This is difficult for some countries
to accept.”
So to paraphrase….US Military Personnel in foreign lands have iron clad immunities while foreign military personnel in the USA get thrown into an Alabama jail cell. Why? Gwevil…gwevil……they are EXCEPTIONAL so why would any country find that difficult to accept?
Now lets get to some nitty gritty with the US and Canada……..
Canada being an un-EXCEPTIONAL country does not have any bases in the USofA, they may have a small building or two across a border……just not quite sure of that at the moment……
Canadian Military Personnel in the USA will either be 1.) cross border shopping 2.) tourists 3.) getting trained by the Americans in places like the airborne school in Georgia 4.) assigned as a foreign laison officer in places like NORAD.
The base document between US and Canada goes back to 1951 before the USofA became full of…………EXCEPTIONALISM.
That document is here;
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17265.htm
Notice I will provide a link to that document. 🙂
Here is the statement that makes that military family subject to the jurisdiction thereof meaning they win the EXCEPTIONAL GIFT of USC;
“The authorities of the receiving State shall have the right to exercise exclusive jurisdiction over members of a force or civilian component and their dependents with respect to offences, including offences relating to the security of that State, punishable by its law but not by the law of the sending state.”
@Gwevil “I’m pretty sure that military brats can’t claim citizenship of the countries their parents happened to be stationed in when they were born or that would open up a huge can of worms for all countries around the world. And especially the US wouldn’t just grant their “precious” citizenship so generously like that back then.”
If we pointed this out to Congress that would take care of it toot sweet.
Its not a problem in most countries because you do not gain citizenship simply by birth in the country.
There are a lot of US Military Brats born in Germany and they do not have German Citizenship, ditto Japan and Korea.
As I have said on these forums many times…..this is not a tax problem its a citizenship problem and the problem is that the meddling courts closed most of the emergency exits!!! To be honest we would not have the problem today if all the expatriation doors remained open that were in effect in 1975!!!
@Gwevil, have you noticed a common theme………..
Everything the USofA touches…..turns to………EXCEPTIONALISM.
So its always wise to never ever have anything to do with anything Made in USA because not even penicillin can treat it.
@Gwevil……did the advisory board to the State Dept piss you off? 😉
@George – I get what you’re saying, but I believe the exceptionalism would only extend to the punishment of the parents under the jurisdiction of the host state (the US) but would not extend to the conferring of privilege of exceptionalism of the host state upon the children born to the underlings of the visiting state (unexceptional Canadians) when inside the exceptional host state as stationed military personnel. They would only deserve the punishment, not the privilege, as far as I understand how that sentence is structured (and as far as I understand how they’d think).
@George – the advisory board of the State Department? I haven’t had anything to do with them ever (and nor will I ever), but I infer from what others have said that they seem to be pretty rigid. I’m counting on it actually 😉
I know this is off the current sub-topic, but it is back to the main topic of this thread: In a recent exchange of financial paperwork involving creation of a new account with a major Canadian bank, I observed that the bank asked if I were a U.S. citizen or a U.S. person for tax purposes, but it was careful not to ask about past citizenship or place of birth. It required government-issued photo ID, and a provincial driver’s licence, which does not show place of birth, was acceptable for that.
@AnonAnon, thats what should occur!!! All else is ultra vires.
Very good AnonAnon. Are you willing to identify your bank?
I am also curious to know which bank Snub is dealing with.
@Mr.A – Me too! And also, how they’d have found out he was a so-called “US person”!
@GwEvil
Snub says:
“A few months ago I went to my bank to open a new mutual fund account and they had to update my personal information. They asked where I was born and thats when the red flags appeared. I filled out the forms they gave me and they got back to me saying I am considered a US person.”
Sadly, Snub was caught unaware and unprepared, or was too honest. I know that there has already been a big debate about lying, and that not everyone will agree with me, but personally I will lie in this situation. We are being targeted with injustice and I feel that it is justified to lie to protect ourselves and our family members.
@GwEvil
That is how they will *catch* US persons…. Ohhh… I need to update your personal info…. Where were u born? What citizenships do u hold? Have u ever lived or worked in the US? Or other innocent bs…
If u know nothing about this crap… u will tell the truth because to u.. its not that big of a deal… Surprise! To lie or not to lie if u know about this is a hard call… If I was asked… my answer would be… what business is it of yours…. to me… all my immigration, residences, & citizenships are none of anyones business but my own..
Do everyone a big favour… Name the Financial & where… if u don’t want to name the place… mention the Province then… So if it happened at TD… say it… They all work for the IRS now for free… There is no such thing as polite chit-chat… their goal is to find u out… Screw them all… why make it easy for anyone… make them work hard for the info…
@All – it’s really a scary thing that unless you know the trap, you’ll fall right into it. My answer, knowing what I know, would be “where I was born is none of your (GD!) business. My citizenship and residency is Canadian and that’s all YOU need to know”.
@gwevil
They will catch people out who do not know and think its neat they were born in amsrica
Talking to your kids about about their heritage is like talking about sex
Thankfully they only now have an accent when they want it plus their Eu id has no indica
What a way to live
@GwEvil and all
I would beware of any FI asking to update my information and asking US person questions. I wouldn’t hesitate to lie under these conditions either if I there was any question of being considered a US person.
Better yet, go to a local client based credit union and do business where they will not ask these questions. I renounced in December 2014. Prior to that I closed all accounts with TD and RBC. Vancity Credit Union has been a real breath of fresh air. Even with a CLN, I would not do business with the big banks again.
It wasn’t a bank, but when I was admitted to a rehab hospital last year, the second question I was asked was “Where were you born?”
Even though I was feeling miserable, I simply responded “I’m not prepared to answer that question.” Response from the Admissions person “Why?” My reply “Because you have no reason to need to know that.” She said OK and Ee moved on.
I do know of an elderly widow who has been banking with Canada Trust (now TD) for 40 years where she was born. She told them Ohio. They immediately referred her to Price Waterhouse. She has spent a huge sum of money to tell the IRS she owed nothing.
She became a Canadian citizen in 1974. She would not take my advice that she should not file with IRS. She would not speak to John Richardson. She woukd not attend John’s info session. She will no longer speak to me.
My former neighbours are now her neighbour. They have told me she filed again this year and is very fragile emotionally because of all of this. They have tried to persuade her not to file and to speak to John. She is just too stressed to think clearly. She is considering giving all her money to her church so the IRS cannot get it. She will not accept that the IRS cannot do that in Canada.
I do not know what she will do about a FATCA.
That is one of the many reasons why I left TD AFTER 33 years as a Canada Trust customer and moved to a local credit union who made it clear to me they have no interest in knowing where I was born.
I was not asked to complete a self-certification or any questions about the U.S. I gave my driver’s license and SIzn card as ID to open the accounts.
I also transferred my assets from LIbro Credit Union to my new vpcredit Union (Your Neighbiurhood Credit Union) because LIbro told me they will comply with FATCA. So not all credit unions are safe from FATCA. I have no idea why they aren’t all applying for Local Client Base and publicizing it like Vancity did.
@Blaze
That’s a tragic story. I recently met a couple who were almost similarly railroaded into going to an accounting firm by a major bank here in Canada. Turns out after talking to them, I was able to determine that they had a pretty strong case for relinquishment back in the 90’s – which they’re currently investigating.
Are the banks getting some kind of referral fee when they push a customer into the waiting arms of a accounting firm? They should be taking a step back and realizing that these customers may not even still be US citizens. They need to get their a$$es sued over this.
Blaze and bubblebustin. Absolutely tragic and brings one back to that sense of extreme anger this is happening to Canadians, with the extreme stress such fear has caused this woman. I’m so glad that you’ve gotten through to another couple, bubblebustin.
And, Blaze, I’m glad you had your wits about you going into a rehab hospital last year and asked where you were born. Practice makes perfect in appropriate answers to these questions.
@Bubblebustin TD and Price Waterhouse seemed to prey on the criminality of all of this. She kept saying “I ‘m not a criminal.”
Neither TD nor PW mentioned to her that she is probably not even a U.S. Citizen. Neither of them mentioned CRA will not collect for IRS. Neither of them mentioned IRS has no jurisdiction in Canadian courts. Neither of them mentioned Canada will not extradite her.
By the time I spoke to her, she was terrorized. Her reaction by then was similar to the learned helplessness of abused women. They abused her, They convinced her she was the cause of the problems. They convinced her she could be penalized. They continued to abuse her.
She and I had the same branch at TD which contributed to my decision to leave. The Branch Manager knew I was originally from the U.S. simply from conversations in the past. She knew better than to try to mess with me like they did with this widow. She knew exactly why I left and said she was “disappointed” at my decision.
I told her my feelings about TD could not be expressed in respectful language so instead I said I did not want to deal with a bank that cares more about its foreign operations and a foreign law than it does about its long time Canadian citizen customers.
At least this widow did not get caught up in the nightmare of the widow in Victoria who paid $93,000 from her Canadian husband’s estate to the IRS.