On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
Understood. Advice remains the same.
so due to life I found the need to obtain a new bank account.
based on what I had learned here on IBS about the “local client base” credit unions I felt quite good about going into my local van city credit union and opening up said account.
I was in and out of there in under 15 minutes, no questions what so ever. just needed to show my driver license and a secondary i.d. no place of birth, nationality…..nothing!!!
I have know the lady who opened my account for over 20 years and was comfortable talking to her off the record. she has worked at this credit union for at least 15 years. she had never heard of fatca nor “local client base”.
all in all a very good experience using van city in case anybody out there is needing to change or looking to open another bank account.
I think its interesting how not a single credit union in the Uk has registered for fatca but many in Canada have
I will be sending another donation to ADCS shortly. For those who have not donated, or are on the fence about it, please donate. It is so important. Here is why….
Re: self certification. Back in February I tried to open an account at a small Toronto credit union with $200. I presented an Ontario drivers license, SIN and credit card. I was asked the following:
Are you a Canadian Citizen? Yes
Are you a US citizen? I said no
Are you a US resident for tax purposes? I said no
When it came time to sign the documents, I was presented with a “Fatca Self-Certification” form. Two copies, one for me and one for the credit union. It was not an official CRA for IRS form, just something that the bank drew up. It started with “In order to fulfill our legal obligations…..” I needed to say yes or no to being a US citizen. Then yes, or no to being a US resident for tax purposes. I answered no to all. I played dumb and asked what this “US stuff” was all about. The financial adviser told me that it was new legislation that came into play at the beginning of the year and that all banks and credit unions had to have these forms filled out by account holders. I asked if my self certification form would be sent to the US. He indicated that banking information would be sent to the US only if the person answered yes to the questions about citizenship.
The whole situation freaked me out so much that I left without opening the account. This experience left an awful taste in my mouth. Am I overreacting? Is this just a situation of the financial institution covering their ass? If I went through with it and opened the account as a “Canadian only” person, would I need to worry about getting caught?
For those who are still on the fence about donating, or who may feel that some may be blowing this whole situation out of proportion, I challenge you to try opening up an account at any Canadian financial institution and see what your experience is like.
The credit union i visited was IC Savings.
@Marie,
When he “indicated that banking information would be sent to the US only if the person answered yes to the questions about citizenship”, I suspect that he actually meant the info would be sent to the CRA and the CRA would send it to the US. That’s one of the things that the IGA does: makes it so the bank doesn’t communicate directly with the IRS (which it can’t legally do, I believe).
I don’t think it’s the financial institution covering their ass, they are complying with the Canadian law that enables the FATCA IGA. If you lie to the bank, you’re breaking Canadian law, not US law.
Does your Canadian passport show a US place of birth? If YES, could you ever get caught? Probably not. The Passport Head Office is a full 6 kms from the CRA Head Office.
@WhatAmi
Yes, while he didn’t mention the CRA, I know that’s what he meant. My fear is that at some point most of us will open up new bank accounts or change banking institutions for whatever reason. We will all be forced to comply with FATCA, or lie and break Canadian law. That scares me.
Scares and sickens us all, I’m sure.
I just looked at the IC Savings web site and couldn’t find any meniton of FATCA. I went through their online application form (with fake info) and got to the end with no mention of US issues. The only clue anywhere is on the Personal Membership page:
Nasty business.
I opened 10 accounts at credit unions using online applications prior to FATCA (July 1, 2014). Not one required a phone call or personal visit, so it used to be possible. I consider a notice of a required phone call and/or personal visit generally as a good sign of a FATCA trap.
Just wondering.
Is giving false information on the Self Certification form really breaking the law? What law is being broken. All of the info I provided was correct as it pertains to my Canadian status, correct address, truthful in that I hold Canadian citizenship, correct SIN and credit card. The bank/credit union is not the government, and the form provided is not a government form. Sometimes when I go shopping the cashier will ask for my e-mail address. Sometimes I lie and provide a fake e-mail address because I don’t want the junk mail. Am i breaking the law?
@Marie,you listed stated the following;
“Are you a Canadian Citizen? Yes Are you a US citizen? I said no Are you a US resident for tax purposes? I said no”
Personally I believe that you must be honest with the credit union and yourself.
If a person has or has had a Canadian Passport then they surely can rightfully answer yes to being a Canadian Citizen.
If a person is an immigrant to Canada and they solely have a US Passport then it would be a lie to answer no to being a USC. One also has to realise that it is entirely different to think that one may be a USC versus havng ones status adjuducated by the State Department. Think of the two plaintiffs with ADCS, they do not consider themselves to be USC regardless as to what the USG thinks or for that matter if Poland or Ireland considers them to be citizens.
When I see the question you wrote, Are you a US Citizen, the first question that comes to mind is What is a US Citizen?
If you have a valid US Passport in your possession, regardless as to how many nationalities you have, then you need to answer the question YES.
If you became a Canadian in 1996 with the intent to relinquish then you are not a USC if you believe that to be true.
I suppose for many people, the question “Do you consider yourself a US resident for tax purposes” can truthfully be answered NO, but “Does the USA consider you a US resident for tax purposes” is YES. What, then, to do?
Not every FI will ask the same question. How about this one: ““Are you or have you ever been a United States citizen?”
@Marie, the Canadian law is Bill C-31, Part 5:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=6495200&File=4&Col=1
http://citizenshipsolutions.ca/2014/05/08/congresshasspoken-text-of-canadas-fatca-law/#more-521
At the request of EmBee, this comment by Don is being reposted here (originally at:
Take a look at these clauses in Marks and Spencers bank run by HSBC for a current account.
. You are responsible for complying with your tax
obligations (and Connected Persons are
responsible for complying with theirs), such as
payment of tax and filing of tax returns, in all
countries where those obligations arise relating
to the opening and use of accounts and Services
provided by any member of the HSBC Group.
Some countries’ tax laws may apply to you even
if you do not live there or are not a citizen of
that country. No member of the HSBC Group
provides tax advice or is responsible for your tax
obligations in any country, including in
connection with any accounts or Services
provided by any member of the HSBC Group. You
should seek independent legal and tax advice
If you do not give us Tax Information about you
or a Connected Person when we request it, we
will have to make our own decision about your
tax status. This may result in us or any member
of the HSBC Group reporting you to Tax
Authorities, withholding any amounts from
products or services you have with us and paying
those to the appropriate Tax Authority.
Authorities” includes any judicial, administrative, public
or regulatory body, any government, any Tax Authority,
securities or futures exchange, court, central bank or
law enforcement body, or any of their agents with
jurisdiction over any part of the HSBC Group;
“Connected Person” means any natural person or legal
entity (other than you) whose information (including
Personal Data or Tax Information) you provide, or which
is provided on your behalf, to any member of the HSBC
Group or which is otherwise received by any member
of the HSBC Group in connection with the provision of
the Services. A Connected Person may include any
guarantor, payee or any other persons or entities with
whom you have a relationship that is relevant to your
relationship with the HSBC Group;
“Tax Authorities” means UK or foreign tax, revenue or
monetary authorities (for example, Her Majesty’s
Revenue and Customs);
http://bank.marksandspencer.com/pdf/CLTermsAndConditions.pdf
HSBC is being very careful not to single out US citizens, or mention the IRS in any shape or form.
HSBC if you don’t cooperate will make their own determination as to who your account information is passed on to whether you like it or not.
I think in the UK a anti-FATCA lawsuit would have to focus on HMRC, the UK Government, and finally a Financial Institution. Clearly, ‘backroom data discrimination’ is taking place. Someone needs to get a bank in an open courtroom to explain the process how the data is handled from capture through release. Question the bank as to which countries are requesting this information and which countries have received it and how many times.
If a picture could be painted that all US citizens are captured and sent to the HMRC while just a handful to other countries it may paint an interesting picture.
When I return across the pond the battle must be waged.
Here’s a disturbing experience posted by Donna Lane Nelson in Switizerland. She’s an author so I’m not sure if it’s a fictional (yet factual) account.
http://theexpatwriter.blogspot.ch/2015/05/not-opening-bank-account-as-expat.html
Will these questions be coming to Canadian banks and credit unions soon?
Here is a legal theory that might be worthwhile exploring. If one holds dual nationalities, one of them US, but one is recognized as a citizen of the country in his place of residence outside of the US, then one is not a US citizen and can legitimately claim so.
The reason is simple: The pertinent definition of “US Person” for most of the cases that will affect dual nationals is, “An individual who is a US citizen or US resident alien …” The one place where citizenship is defined in American jurisprudence is in Amendment 14: Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States, which is the supreme law of the land, and whose definition would supersede any and all other definitions of US citizenship, including those of the IRS.
Article 6 – Supremacy
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;
Thus, Amendment 14: Section 1 of the US Constitution reads: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
This is the definitive definition of US citizen. But, both conditions of “born or naturalized in the United States” AND “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” must be true for this definition to be true. This is a rule of logic.
Therefore, by definition, a person living beyond US borders and not “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”, and who is not a resident or citizen of any state of the United States, is not, or not necessarily, a US citizen. It would depend on how his country of residence recognizes his citizenship.
Thus, when a citizen of one country is abroad and no longer under the jurisdiction of that country, he may or may not continue to be a citizen of that country depending on how he is recognized and treated by the country in which he is currently residing or visiting. This is the case for persons who hold sole Israeli citizenship, for example, if they should happen to find themselves in any one of the 31 or so countries that do not recognize Israel’s existence. These persons would be, effectively, stateless persons having no official citizenship.
It is irrelevant, then, how one might consider one’s citizenship, or how an institution like a bank might consider one’s citizenship, or even how a nation like the United States might consider one’s citizenship. The only definition of citizenship that should matter to a dual citizen abroad is how the host country, under whose authority and jurisdiction he finds himself, might consider his citizenship, because this determines whether he will be treated as a citizen of that country or as a citizen of the United States.
This goes to the heart of the question where it concerns dual nationality: Would a country like Canada, for example, recognize a Canadian citizen having dual nationality and residing on its own soil as a Canadian citizen, or would Canada recognize this person as a foreign citizen? If Canada does recognize a dual national in that situation as a Canadian citizen, then she is not recognizing this person as a foreign citizen, and a dual national Canadian can legitimately claim not to be a US citizen because Canada says so. If, however, Canada recognizes a dual national in the above situation as a foreign citizen, then she is not recognizing this person as a Canadian citizen, and that would be a problem. In either case, important questions of constitutionality and national sovereignty arise, and these are what need to be answered.
This thread topic is probably not a perfect match for my own experience but it seems to be the topic that is closest.
As some people on here know, I’m a dual citizen living in the US and have a US-based E*Trade account. E*Trade recently informed me that they are closing my “Global Trading” sub-account in July–this is the account that allowed me to trade in securities that trade in other countries and other currencies besides just the US. E*Trade has said that my position will be transferred to a US-dollar equivalent.
We’ll see how smoothly that goes but even if it goes smoothly it is another indication that a “financial firewall” is going up around the US making any attempts to move money in or out viewed with suspicion. AFAIK this is a general decision by E*Trade to close their “Global Trading” operations rather than anything specific to me but I still find it an interesting data point.
@EmBee
Thanks for the link to that story from the woman living in Switzerland. I’m not sure if I understand her full story (she has been writing her blog for over a decade but her husband just recently relocated there?) and won’t have time to read more than the one article.
However this story is a good example of why people living in the US (such as myself) need to be concerned about FATCA, CBT, etc if they have any international connections of any kind (such as her husband who is married to a woman living in Switzerland). Her husband was living in the US until recently but now seems to be persona non grata in Switzerland despite being AFAIK a perfectly legal resident of Switzerland.
So far Canada’s enforcement of FATCA doesn’t seem quite as bad as Switzerland but this is the direction Canada is heading if FATCA and its enforcement in Canada isn’t stopped.
@Yazz, I believe you are correct in the aspect can a Canadian Citizen resident in Canada be anything other than 100% Canadian!!!!
I think under Canadian Law, I am Canadian. I do not reside in Canada and do not carry a passport of Canada.
If someone asks me Are you a Canadian Citizen? I will answer NO.
To be blunt, if the Citizenship of Gwen and Ginny were tested in a Court in Canada, I believe that said Court could reach one and only one determination under Canadian Law and that is Gwen and Ginny are solely Canadian!!!
The Master Nationality Rule was intended to settle these problems but a certain EXCEPTIONAL country chose not to sign that treaty.
@Yazz
Here is a legal theory that might be worthwhile exploring. If one holds dual nationalities, one of them US, but one is recognized as a citizen of the country in his place of residence outside of the US, then one is not a US citizen and can legitimately claim so.
I generally agree with this but it should not be restricted to residents. Simple physical presence in the country where one is recognized as a citizen should be sufficient to claim that country’s sole citizenship for however long the stay in the country of citizenship is–whether a few hours or 20 years. Definitions of residency are arbitrary and citizenship isn’t very valuable if it can be abridged by some legislator’s definition of who is a resident.
The Master Nationality Rule to which @George refers requires only physical presence in the country where one is recognized as a citizen, not residency. The Master Nationality Rule refers to physical presence, not residency.
@Yazz
As an example, when I visit Canada for the summary trial in August, I will be there only for a couple of days. I will not be a Canadian resident. However if the press turns up (and I hope they do) and if I happen to be speaking to the press, I intend to describe myself as a Canadian citizen and a Canadian citizen only. My US citizenship isn’t a secret but it also isn’t relevant in Canada and it isn’t relevant to why I’m supporting the plaintiffs in this action.
I won’t make a secret of the fact that I live in the US, but if my “Canadian-ness” is challenged I will remind them that expat Canadians can vote and that I am a registered Canadian voter and am a stakeholder in any matters affecting the Charter such as this one.
Last year when I was in Québec anyway to renew my driving license for another 4 years (future renewals will be for 8 years under new rules) I went to BMO to arrange for online banking for a family company. This had to be done at the branch, in person, despite our 45 years of banking there. The firm was established with letters patent in 1970 and it has banked with BMO that long although it does virtually no Canadian business anymore and just uses the account to pay local taxes and expenses.
At the bank I presented my local driving licence and my national (European country) ID card. As it turns out I made one (theoretically) big mistake: We have numerous telephone numbers, none of which are Canadian and one of which is U.S. (although the firm has does no business and has no assets or shareholders or directors in the US: it was just convenient to have a Vonage VoIP US number and there was no obvious reason to pay another $6 or so a month for a Canadian number).
As I now know, the US number alone is enough to taint the company with presumptive US personhood although this become serious only when the account exceeds US$50,000.
We file IRS form 5471 anyway ($10,000 fine for not filing) and thus far BMO didn’t notice that a 212 area code is US, or if they did know that they didn’t notice the IGA rule. (See http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Agreement-Canada-2-5-2014.pdf at page 20.) We are gradually removing US persons as shareholders but our non-US family members are still all minors so can’t be bank signatories.
Maybe the bank guy didn’t think of US personhood because I was speaking French to him.
Brockers at Canadian Money Forum have been trying to direct this person to Brock to get help. I think this is a good thread to post this person’s banking experience.
http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showthread.php/45625-Help-Needed-Foreign-Account-Tax-Compliance-Act
snub from Vancouver Island wrote on June 3, 2015:
If his father was stationed in the US as Canadian military personnel he would NOT be granted US citizenship! It’s similar to being born to a consul or diplomat who was stationed in the US during that time.
I was really trying not go get pissed off today. Oh well. If what GwEvil says is true, Canadian banks in a monumental effort to cover their asses are railroading people like “snub” into the US tax system.
Now what does this mean exactly: …”Then I can renounce my US Citizenship or apply to keep it.” GwEvil, do you know if someone can opt to have US citizenship when born on a military base?
I really hope Brock can intervene here before snub takes any more missteps.
I’m pretty sure that military brats can’t claim citizenship of the countries their parents happened to be stationed in when they were born or that would open up a huge can of worms for all countries around the world. And especially the US wouldn’t just grant their “precious” citizenship so generously like that back then.
@gwevil
Sadly the person is a us citizen.
Military personnel are controlled under what is called a status of forces agreement.
The sofa governing the deployment of the parents would not have restricted us citizenship by birth on us soil.