On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
@msd
I’m confused. The 2 reasons for having a CLN are to prove to a FI that you are no longer a USC, and to prove to a US border official, when he sees a US birthplace on a Canadian passport, that you are no longer a USC. You went to all the trouble of getting a CLN but now instead of simply showing it to the bank, you argue your rights as a Canadian citizen not to answer the question? Your credit union did not submit to US laws, our federal givernment did. Like it or not, it’s now a Canadian law that the bank has to ask those questions.
With a CLN in hand, I would no longer feel like a 2nd-class Canadian as I’d be on equal footing with uni-citizens in every way. I don’t see your refusal to present your CLN to the bank as any kind of show of solidarity with the rest of us who can’t get or don’t yet have CLNs (if indeed that’s what you feel you’re doing?). I’d say go ahead and flaunt your CLN: you earned it. You can always contribute to the ADSC case to help the rest of us.
@ msd
I don’t think of it as fighting for my citizenship. I think of it as fighting for everyone’s financial privacy rights. We let them take this from us and then who knows what they will take next … our medical history privacy perhaps? The other aspect is that I do not want one resident of Canada being treated differently than another. We should not be divided into the haves and have nots when it comes to something as fundamental and important as financial privacy. That’s what the ADCS lawsuit is about and that’s why I support it.
msd could you provide a link to your story about how you successfully relinquished?
WhatAmI
All the trouble I took to get a CLN was no trouble at all considering I had little choice, and compared to the daunting alternatives (plus my particular case had added complexities adding to my paranoia and fear). And it is a lonely struggle, no one is there with you except a foreign Embassy and some official — and Brock of course, in cyber space in spirit and in solidarity. The end of the tunnel seems far far away.
All in all a traumatising experience. SO yeah, it is a relief, and cause for celebration when you reach your goal. However, I dont know about others, but after the initial high there is a bitter taste, and something close to anger. And with this experience with my CU — being reminded that my uni Canadian compatriots are completely oblivious or, like my bank manager, dont care or dont see it as their fight — I’m in no mood to flaunt my new “status” by answering questions no other Canadian has to bother with, that isnt Canadian but something else.
Was I fighting for you? I hadnt given it any thought, it’s still too personal, it’s about me and my bank. But since you bring it up, of course any active dissent or complaint or action against institutions that infringe on privacy or create different categories of Canadians, does help everyone as far as I am concerned — even if it is now legal (and you do understand what they’ve made legal, Right?). Nevertheless, there is no need to pat me on the back in solidarity, I’m not fishing for thank yous — I enjoy doing it all for myself, and talking about it, because I’m somewhat pissed off about the whole experience and now the new reality that reminds me of it. Can you dig it?
I hope that clears the air. Good luck and hope you reach the end of your personal tunnel, sooner rather than later…
PortlandPLC–
Oh my, it’s in one of the threads, here it is under “Did you relinquish before February 6, 1995? Then you did not have to inform the State Department” p3-8
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/did-you-relinquish-before-february-6-1995-then-you-did-not-have-to-inform-the-state-department/comment-page-3/#comments
msd Thank you. I read all your old posts. Were you a dual citizen at birth? i presume not’ Were you about 20 when you became Canadian? Thanks.
@WhatAmI,
I feel the same as msd. I have had my CLN for a while now, and am relieved in one sense, but am still resentful and angry that I had to go to those lengths, and also at the possibility that I may be required to show it in Canada. If asked by an FI or non-FI, I have decided to steadfastly state only that I am a Canadian citizen – which is the truth. If I am asked to produce a CLN, then I am NOT therefore being treated the same as any other Canadian citizen, solely because of my birthplace – which I cannot change. That makes me feel bitter – because though I jumped through very costly hoops of ‘compliance’ and US expatriation, and have swore my oath to Canada, the Harper government and the Conservatives have created different grades of citizenship. I used to have two federal governments discriminating against me, I repudiated one, and now I still have one using my national origin and birthplace against me due to US extortion and the efforts of the Canadian bank lobby and their empire building in the US ex. ( http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/rbc-to-buy-city-national-for-about-54-billion/article22572419/ , or http://business.financialpost.com/2014/10/31/td-banks-incoming-ceo-plans-end-to-u-s-buying-binge/ ).
I have vestigial accounts with a CBA member. I was going to close it out – and I like my credit union much much better anyway, but decided to keep it as a sort of canary in the FATCA coal mine. I am waiting to see what that particular bank will do, and be able to report on it, and have their actions as proof of discrimination based only on my US birthplace (which is not on record) as I have no other US indicia. I am waiting to see if and when they might suddenly try to make pre-existing accountholders fill out a US person declaration for FATCA.
@ msd
Thanks for providing that link. I went back to re-read it. Can you believe, now, that there was a time when you didn’t know what a CLN is and where it comes from? Going up that learning curve must have seemed as though the (in)famous “tree of knowledge” had morphed, as in a horrid B-movie, into a meat grinder. Glad you made it through safe and sound but I perfectly understand your justifiable anger following the trauma of the CLN process (or, going with the meat grinder metaphor, I might say the CLN “processing”). This $hit should not be happening to anyone.
@Badger, “If asked by an FI or non-FI, I have decided to steadfastly state only that I am a Canadian citizen – which is the truth. If I am asked to produce a CLN, then I am NOT therefore being treated the same as any other Canadian citizen, solely because of my birthplace – which I cannot change.”
BRAVO, bravo!!!! That is exactly what should be done!!
I relinquished close to ten years ago. If asked about being American, I state NO……then full stop.
I am fortunate that my ID because of my nationality does not have an indication of US birth place.
FIs have now asked me the question SOLELY based on my accent. Trust me I put them firmly in their place when they go down that road and flat out call them racist. I then ask them as this is usually over the phone, would they like to know the darkness of my skin to see what tribe I am from?
IF FIs want to act in a discriminatory manner, I/we can not repeat can not allow them to be comfortable!!
If someone asks you place of birth, ask them do they want to know who you sleep with?
I’ve been chatting with a lady on the AARO Facebook page who lives in the tiny country of San Marino. She said that a whopping 10% of the people of San Marino are USC’s because many of the people who emigrated to the US ended up moving back with their US born children. She self-identifies as a dual at birth, has a US passport but knew nothing about relinquishing acts. Her bank there told her to get a social security number, or they would close her account. She complied and now wonders if that will put her on the FATCA radar. Her first mistake was trusting her bank has her best interest in mind!
I just saw this notice re the opening of new accounts:
http://www.kpmg.com/US/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/taxnewsflash/Pages/2015-1/fatca-faq-regarding-new-account-self-certification.aspx
‘FATCA – FAQ regarding new account self-certification ‘
Full text of the new FAQ is provided below. Also read all FAQs on the FATCA webpage.
Q10. If a Reporting Model 1 FFI or a Reporting Model 2 FFI that is applying the due diligence procedures in section III, paragraph B, of Annex I of the IGA cannot obtain a self-certification upon the opening of a New Individual Account, can the FFI open the account and treat it as a U.S. Reportable Account?
Added: 02-02-2015
No. Pursuant to section III, paragraph B, of Annex I of the IGA, the FFI must obtain a self-certification at account opening. If the FFI cannot obtain a self-certification at account opening, it cannot open the account.
@badger
The Canadian IGA and the CRA’s Guidance for the IGA _clearly_ state that the answer to the FAQ Q10 question above quoted from the KPMG article should be YES!
So, TD is not the only over-zealous FI?
Here is the relevant quote from the CRA Guidance:
I didn’t read the KPMG page until after I made my post above. Looking now, I see that the FAQ is an IRS FAQ, not a KPMG FAQ. KPMG was just noting the addition to the IRS FAQ. My apologies to KPMG, I guess.
The IRS today added a new item to the list of “frequently asked questions” (FAQs) concerning the FATCA regime.
Perhaps I don’t know what a “Reporting Model 1 FFI” is. Could that be the reporting scheme for countries without an IGA where FIs report directly to the IRS? Or, could the Canadian IGA be different from other IGAs in the world?
One more comment about this.
The IRS FAQ being discussed here is titled “FATCA – FAQS General”.
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-FATCA–Compliance-Legal
The section with this new Q10 is titled “Qualified Intermediaries/Withholding Foreign Partnerships/Withholding Foreign Trusts”, whatever that means. Maybe it doesn’t even apply to individual accounts in a FI covered by an IGA?
@WhatAmI,
Canada is a Model 1A IGA
(see http://www.pwc.com/us/en/financial-services/publications/fatca-publications/intergovernmental-agreements-monitor.jhtml#canada ).
But I thought that it was not possible for a Canadian bank to refuse to open a basic account.
I’m not the best person to decipher how this applies to Canada because I’m not that conversant with the details of the IGA. I was alarmed at the possibility that a Canadian FI could deny one an account (the FAQ doesn’t distinguish between an investment acct vs. basic chequing for instance?
This is the section I think the FAQ refers to “section III, paragraph B, of Annex I of the IGA” :
“B.
Other New Individual Accounts.
1.
With respect to New Individual Accounts not described in paragraph A of
this section, upon account opening (or within 90 days after the end of the
calendar year in which the account ceases to be described in paragraph A
of this section), the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution must obtain a
self-certification, which may be part of the account opening
documentation, that allows the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution to
determine whether the Account Holder is resident in the United States for
tax purposes (for this purpose, a U.S. citizen is considered to be resident in
the United States for tax purposes, even if the Account Holder is also a tax
resident of another jurisdiction) and confirm the reasonableness of such
self-certification based on the information obtained by the Reporting
Canadian Financial Institution in connection with the opening of the
account, including any documentation collected pursuant to AML/KYC
Procedures.
2.
If the self-certification establishes that the Account Holder is resident in
the United States for tax purposes, the Reporting Canadian Financial
Institution must treat the account as a U.S. Reportable Account and obtain
a self-certification that includes the Account Holder’s U.S. TIN (which
may be an IRS Form W-9 or other similar agreed form).
3.
If there is a change of circumstances with respect to a New Individual
Account that causes the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution to know,
or have reason to know, that the original self-certification is incorrect or
unreliable, the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution cannot rely on the
original self-certification and must obtain a valid self-certification that
establishes whether the Account Holder is a U.S. citizen or resident for
U.S. tax purposes. If the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution is
unable to obtain a valid self-certification, the Reporting Canadian
Financial Institution must treat the account as a U.S. Reportable Account. ”
Hope someone else can weigh in on the significance of this newest FAQ and how it may or may not accord with the ‘Access to Basic Banking Services Regulations under the Bank Act’ http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2003-184/FullText.html as referred to here;
http://www.cba.ca/en/research-and-advocacy/50-backgrounders-on-banking-issues/83-opening-a-bank-account .
I know that the FATCA IGA was intended to override any Canadian law it was in conflict with, but in practice that is being contested in part by the ADCS legal challenge.
And as I read it, the Canadian IGA doesn’t seem to allow for the denial of an account? I am not sure about my interpretation.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can weigh in?
https://savingsadvisor.credit-suisse.com/cs/savingsadvisor/p/d/advisor?channel=selfService&language=de
Nutzungsbedingungen
Insbesondere aus rechtlichen und regulatorischen Gründen sind gewisse Webinhalte der Credit Suisse nicht für alle Besucher zugänglich. Durch Klicken auf “Ja” bestätigen Sie, Ihren Wohnsitz in der Schweiz zu haben. Sollten Sie Ihren Wohnsitz nicht in der Schweiz haben, so klicken Sie bitte auf “Nein”. Sie haben in diesem Fall keinen Zugang zu den nachfolgenden Inhalten.
Die nachfolgenden Inhalte sind insbesondere weder für die Verbreitung an oder die Nutzung durch natürliche oder juristische Personen bestimmt, noch stellen sie ein Angebot oder eine Einladung zu einem Angebot von Produkten oder Leistungen für natürliche oder juristische Personen dar, die (i) als US-Person im Sinne von Regulation S des US Securities Act von 1933 gelten, oder (ii) in Bezug auf natürliche Personen ein US-Staatsangehöriger oder ein “resident alien” gemäss dem US-Einkommenssteuergesetz sind (unabhängig vom Wohnort). Lokale Gesetze oder Verordnungen können zudem den Vertrieb gewisser nachfolgend vorgestellter Produkte in bestimmte Rechtsordnungen einschränken.
I’m posting this for someone (“Canadian,BornInEurope”) who would appreciate your input on their situation. Thanks.
“Hi All,
“I really need some advice. This is my situation, Born in Europe and moved to Canada as a young boy. Married a US Citizen in the 70’s, after many years passed we decided we wanted to move to the US. In the early 90’s I applied for a US Permanent Resident Card ( Green Card), I applied in Canada using my wive’s parents address in the US, because eventually we were planning on living with her parents. So I received the Green Card and then applied for a SSN, I also received that. After much discussion, and health concerns we decided to stay in Canada, so we NEVER moved to the US afterall.. After finding out about this nightmare, my wife and children decided to renounce there US problem and filed back taxes. I do not want anything to do with it because I thought my Green Card Expired and since I did not ever live there I thought why should I do anything.
“Now this is the part where it has started to get really messy, I just received a letter from my bank, the dreaded FACTA questionnaire form letter. I have to sign it and get it back to them by July. My wife has told me it would probably be a point in time I would receive the letter from the bank, but I just did not believe it or didn’t want to believe it. I had just turned a blind eye to the whole situation. Now here I am, wondering how I am going to handle this.
“I have a large sum of money in GIC’s, I am past retirement age now, and this is my families nest egg. I do not know what to do at this point?? There is NO WAY IN HELL I want to tell them I have US resident status, because I felt like a lot of others by NOT renewing it it had just expired. I have never lived in US or worked there. I have not been to the US since 1991, and will not be going there at all anymore. I am a owner in a small business in Canada and all my earnings have been made in Canada.
“So I wanted to ask if anyone would have any suggestions about my situation. I am thinking of signing the form as just Canadian Only and also sending my birth certificate showing my birth in Europe, would this be a good idea??
“Any suggestions would be so appreciated??
“Thank you for your time!”
@Canadian,BornInEurope,
(1) Could you let us know the wording of the problem question/s on the questionnaire? That might be useful to know.
(2) Does your bank have reason to suspect you might be a US person? Or does it appear that they are sending this questionnaire routinely to all clients?
A couple of thoughts:
Here’s a FAQ regarding FATCA from Canada Revenue Agency: Information for individuals with accounts with Canadian financial institutions
Re: “I am thinking of signing the form as just Canadian Only and also sending my birth certificate showing my birth in Europe, would this be a good idea??”
I wouldn’t send them copy of my birth certificate, unless they ask for it or are alleging I was born in the US. I tend to think, though maybe it’s not likely, that sending an unrequested document might call attention to myself.
@ CanadianBornInEurope
I would echo pacifica’s good advice and pay careful attention to the words in the Grey Box. I can tell you that you are not alone and here’s where to find some links you might find useful:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/green-cards/
If you want to learn how to do everything wrong go here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/04/13/my-story-em-the-irs-thinks-i-am-a-us-person-but-i-know-i-am-canadian/
I hope you’ll let us (or pacifica) know the details of those bank questions so it can be posted here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/your-experiences-banking-dealing-with-consulates-entering-the-us/
And finally please help us fight all of this horror by reading here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/01/25/99750-more-needed-in-94-days-to-make-the-may-1-2015-payment-for-canadian-fatca-iga-lawsuit-il-nous-reste-99750-a-ramasser-pour-notre-poursuite-judiciaire/
Good luck and AGAIN, you are not alone!
Canadian,BorninEurope.
Yours is fairly easy. Tell your bank you are Canadian . period. You don’t need to send a birth cert.
We are curious as to 1) why did your bank send a letter? and 2) what did it ask?
Some FIs are going too far and asking for ‘self-certification’ even though it is not required by the IGA . If there are no so-called US ‘indicia’ on file, self-certification is not supposed to be required.
“self-certification’ often takes the form of a W9 or a W8BEN. You shouldn’t be required to sign either unless you have US investments. If you have US investments , sign the W8Ben saying you are not a US person. This advice is sanctioned by the CRA in the link cited by pacifica777
Thanks, PortlandPLC and EmBee,
@PortlandPLC,
Canadian,BornInEurope says the bank sent an SCE-W8 and a W-9. So, an in-house version of the W8-BEN-E, entitled, “Self-certification of Non-US Status for Entities” (looks much shorter and less convoluted than the W8-BEN-E) and a standard IRS W9.
pacifica777 Doesn’t answer the question why he was sent the letter. I gather he is some sort of ‘entity’ (whatever TF that is) as opposed to an individual. For an individual, a W8BEN is simpler still.
@ PortlandPLC,
Yes, it’s his business account. He doesn’t know why he was sent the letter. I’m thinking maybe his bank is sending it out routinely to businesses, as it’s my understanding that he and his business have no US indicia on file with the bank — but I’m just guessing about if that’s what the bank’s doing. I expect to be hearing more from him today or tomorrow. Thanks for your interest and advice.
From Canadian,Born in Europe:
“@PortlandPLC,
This was on the TD Canada Trust Website so I guess they are sending all Business Accounts these Forms. So I guess that is why I got it.
Under the regulations, all business accounts are required to classify their entity type (via a self-certification or the appropriate IRS tax form), regardless if U.S. indicia is present on their account. Additional information can be found on the CRA website: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/ntts-eng.html“