On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
Well, I’m meeting with my Con MP on January 15th, and I’m going to tell him just that, tdott!
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@ Silver birch
That’s great that you were able to get MDM to reverse their position of you being a US Person . I would urge you to consider donating generously to the ADCS. Our government has made us second class citizens in our own country – failing to uphold our rights and to defend us against the unjust actions of the US, telling us that we have always had obligations to file US tax returns etc. etc.
Banks and FI’s should not be allowed to ask US citizenship & place of birth questions, and I would surely hope that we will not be worse off if the lawsuit is successful – I would think that we could not be identified in the first place, so there would be no transfer of our account info to the IRS.
About BEPS
http://www.oecd.org/ctp/beps-frequentlyaskedquestions.htm
Silver birch –
Your question is the fabled pachyderm that centerpieces a cavernous dim dancehall where frantic bodies jitterbug and dosey-do like there’s no tomorrow. Dancing the night away, or at least trying to.
(“Elephant in the room” … that semi-famous cliche-quotation from way back in fall 2011.)
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@George:
I’m skeptical. One doesn’t open a bank account these days without showing proper ID, at least in the EU. If you open one online they ask for a copy of your ID. Nothing discriminatory about having a copy of your ID, and what is on your ID? Your birthplace.
So OK, the banker was nice and didn’t make you write it down, but they can, and probably will, notice it, and can, and probably will, especially nowadays, enter it into the database.
Unless you know of a place where you could open an account with no true ID without having to time travel back to Geneva circa 1932.
Hence the “curse” that is a US birthplace.
@Fred – to open a bank account in Canada this is what you need:
Many of the above do not have a place of birth on them, so it is absolutely possible to open an account with proper ID without telling POB.
The separate question of POB that the banks may ask, is for the purposeful discrimination of US born citizens. Sadly, no one will realize this until it’s too late.
Today at the UCUYKC (Ukrainain Credit Union Ltd.), both my partner and I were asked where we were born. The account is not new, and the woman said she needed to update her records. I just said we were both Canadian which is true. She asked for our Social Insurance Numbers and seemed satisfied after that. I kept thinking to myself, she can’t ask that…
Thank you for the update re the UCUYKC (Ukrainain Credit Union Ltd.) Suki.
Thanks, Suki, for reporting that your credit union, Ukrainian Credit Union Ltd., actually asked where you and your partner were born. That’s just the kind of feedback we need from people here. I’m glad you had the clear head to say you were both Canadian, bypassing the “where were you born” and that you were able to satisfy with giving you SIN’s. But for those who don’t know what you knew on how to answer such a question, they are then wide-open for harm. Who asked you — a manager or was it a teller that you were dealing with on some other transaction?
I keep thinking about that job ad in craigslist for a FATCA specialist — at $15.00 per hour: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/01/13/resistance-is-not-futile-why-not-filling-out-forms-for-your-bank-thwarts-world-wide-fatca-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-5247934.
She was a teller. Ironically, we opened the account after I starting reading this blog thinking we would be safer there rather than our bank, RBC. We do not even have any investment accounts there, just straight chequing and the membership account. I was not expecting the question at all.
@Fred, “I’m skeptical. One doesn’t open a bank account these days without showing proper ID, at least in the EU. If you open one online they ask for a copy of your ID.”
In the UK for opening an account online they will do a credit search and electoral roll (voter registration) search.
If they can verify your address footprint for three years with an electronic search thats all that is needed.
To be on the electoral you must be a UK Citizen or a EU Citizen or in certain circumstances a Commonwealth Citizen.
From a typical High Street Bank;
“Why am I being asked for further identification?
By law, we must verify the identity of each new applicant, even if you’re already a __________customer.
“We can often ID you electronically, but sometimes can’t for various reasons such as if you’ve moved recently or aren’t on the electoral roll. In these cases we need to ask you to provide us with copies of documents (such as a passport) that we can accept to prove your identity.”
@Silver Birch,
1.) Your difficult case of self documented relinquishment needs to be applauded, it is a great encouragement and should encourage others!!
But I am sure you will agree that a self documented relinquishment must be thorough and should have a lawyer involved as part of the process.
The foreign law (US Law) is very clear, a CLN is a requirement for renouncing not relinquishment. To do otherwise is a violation of the Expatriation Act 1868.
2.) Thank you for re-iterating the NO, NO, NO………
The problem with many and some Brockers is they take the mild mannered road the “I do not know path.”
If someone was to ask you, “Are you a citizen of Sudan?” Would you say, NO or “I am not sure.” I know Silver Birch and BC Doc would both say NO.
It was actually BC Doc who got me on the path of no.
Anyone who committed a relinquishing act with intent to relinquish and does not have a US Passport when asked Are you a US Citizen? Should say NO!
@SilverBirch, why you need to support ADCS?
A little about me……I am a former USC who relinquished USC a decade ago. It was messy and my legal expenses were five figures US just for the relinquishment. I am an EU citizen resident in the EU, with two EU citizenship that I acknowledge. Canada considers me one her own which I learned at Brock so that is clinging nationality as I do not consider myself Canadian even though your government says I am. When an FI asks my nationalities, I list my two EU.
The only US indica I have is my US birth certificate. Because of assorted situational circumstances and local laws I can live my life with ID free of the tattoo. My children are similar situated.
I just sent my eleventh donation to ADCS…………why?
Me and my children can live free under the IGA but I know agreements can only get worse. The third FATCA amendment in 2021 might mean I am unable to life a basic life.
The IGAs were required because local laws on discrimination could not be overcome.
If the IGA is declared null and void in Canada, the banks can not send information, period, full stop.
You have every right to feel good right now and you were a test case on self documented relinquishment. THANK YOU!!!!!!!
But I think you need to fear that the IGA will be tightened again and again.
There are many Brockers who feel that the time will come when having a CLN will not make a dimes worth of difference. The US Courts could invalidate all those CLNs because you were deprived of some right!! Remember, homelanders and US Courts consider USC as “being priceless” and all they need is some plaintiff who sues to get it back and trust me there will be someone who relinquished/renounced during the FATCattack and might just win in Court getting back USC for themselves and everyone because its “priceless.”
I hate to say this but US Citizenship is like a cold sore, its not just for Christmas its for life!!! As a doc you know that it will go away for awhile, you can avoid triggers and it will remain dormant but all of a sudden that cold sore is on your lip when you least expect it!!
You and yours will benefit the most from ADCS, you are Canadian living in Canada!! It is very likely I will still living in FATCA and EU even after you win. But my sole hope is that success in Canada will spawn hope and success in the EU.
@Silver Birch, I am just seeking a YES/NO, not the details as I think its inappropriate. I assume you presented them with;
1. Proof of your naturalisation in Canada or employment with the Government, maybe both.
2. A statutory affadavit before a notary/lawyer that you voluntarily relinquished under ______ 8 US Code. That you no longer have a US Passport……
3. A letter from your lawyer stating you are no longer a USC in his/her opinion.
4. A copy of the US House transcript showing a CLN is not required. I think that is what is priceless. 🙂
5. A copy of the Expatriation Act.
6. A copy of 8 US Code that shows a CLN is part of renouncing but NOT relinquishing.
I assume you might have cited the CRA guidance on Place of Birth.
I assume you cited the IGA on “reasonable explanation” language. Again PRICELESS.
Cheers with great thanks,
George
@SilverBirch, just a further note and I am sure BC Doc will agree.
In the future if anyone asks you POB, do not say a thing other than “Thats a racist question, are Canadian Citizens born elsewhere less Canadian? I do not answer racist questions.”
George,
You’re right — and we all need to practice what we WILL say IF we are asked that racist question about our national origin!
Thanks, Suki.
Though I have nothing against the people who work as tellers for banks or credit unions (and I’m sure some of them will also be ‘US-defined US Persons’), I really am not comfortable that the future for me or my son depends on an answer to a financial institution front-line teller with very little training what FATCA means for those *US-defined US Persons* in their own countries. As George points out,
We should all anticipate that question somewhere down the line and practice what our answer will, indeed must, be.
If you remember me I am the guy living in Mexico (now in Canada) who was an “accidental American” immigrating to Canada at 10 years old, where I was coerced to get a US passport in 2011 but where I successfully relinquished my citizenship and returned my US passport without consequence.
New news….
My Credit Union recently changed ownership (whatever that means for a credit union), and for the first time in decades I was asked to arrange a meeting with a manager to transfer my account and “sign some documents”. Sure enough the final page was a FATCA compliance form, asking if I was a US citizen, and if NOT what documents I could provide to prove it!
The field remained blank since the manager didnt have a clue what it meant. But I do! My US produced CLN document. I didnt bother to give it, since it reminds me too much I am STILL a second classed Canadian uni-citizen since real uni-citizens can ignore an idiotic question which asks them to prove they are not a citizen of another country. Whew!
Now that I have submitted to my Credit Union’s submission to US laws, I feel sick. Why did I answer that form? Could they really just cancel my bank account? Am I selling out compatriots who are in what was my situation only 2 years ago? Is there anything I can do to fight this?
@ mdean
Are you msd? If so I do remember you. I think if I’m ever presented with that change of ownership situation I will simply say, “Fine and dandy, I’ll just change to the smaller credit union down the road which doesn’t confront their clients with foreign forms to sign.”
@mdean – I’m unclear on what exactly happened. You did NOT produce the CLN? AND you also did NOT answer the question?
GwEvil says:
I ticked the box “Not a US citizen” and the blank beside it asking for a document to that affect, I did not answer it. I asked the manager what it was and she didnt know, but “nobody is required to answer it”. SO I am speculating it was a standardised form, with somebodies idea, to require people like me to produce a CLN, but they havent got the memo,,, or it’s too complicated, time consuming to explain or too intrusive to ask: if you are not a US citizen, were you a US citizen in the past and have you got a CLN to prove it? What else could it be?
I did get into a long conversation with her explaining FATCA was US over reach etc… her reply was “yes, we know, but it isnt our fight”. To which I explained it was my fight and, as a member of the CU, it should be theirs — considering only 2 years ago I would have been shitting my pants over their form.
EmBee says, yes, msd here..
Easier said than done,,, small town with only one financial institution, my Credit Union. But what makes you think it is any different elsewhere. Isnt this the new paradigm, everywhere? I did ask if it werent for the change of ownership, and the transfer to new accounts to the “new system”, How would they comply with FATCA… She said they would have had the form with the tellers, asking customers as they came in. I do get the suspicion, though, that this whole “transfer to a new account” business is because of FATCA and the excuse they give is just a cover story..
@ mdean
No, it isn’t the same paradigm, everywhere … not yet anyway. My husband recently opened an account at a small credit union down the road and there were no questions asked because they are FATCA reporting exempt (below the $175million threshold). BTW, when you were msd, I was Em … I added a Bee for Brock. Nice to see you back here.
EmBee,, $175million threshold
You see? I’m beginning to get all sorts of info here, and feeling foolish for not coming here before my meeting with the CU. I havent been here for awhile and I thought I left all my worries behind me, until today — then all those nasty emotions came back.. So here I am feeling scrappy… lol…
Actually this whole “changing accounts” brought up another minor battle over my SIN, another right that Cdns seemed to be giving up without so much as a whimper. I phoned the Consumer Rights Commission ( or something like that) in Ottawa and got all the info I needed to refuse to give them my SIN without them routinely threatening to close my account… They gave me the legislation, and I phoned the CU contact person to coordinate this supposed revolutionary act — all in all about 4 hours of my time, and probably the same amount of time with my CU contact, talking to her people up the food chain…
That was the “victory” I had to then sign all their forms,,,, So the FATCA form was a surprise and, while I complained, I simply conceded defeat rather than fighting it. If I had thought of it before I would have prepared myself better, to investigate if I actually have the right to refuse to sign it without losing my account.
The real dilemma and tragedy to all this: Is that it is 100x easier to just conform than to exercise your rights. And this is relatively new, and across the board on so many bureaucratic transgressions against citizens…
The more cynical me wonders whether my Canadian citizenship, or any citizenship, is all that great of a thing to fight for…