On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
I am a dual citizen born in Canada. I attended university in the USA and worked there during that time. I paid my taxes for those years, but haven’t filed a US tax return since returning to Canada in 2001. I don’t own a home, or any investments, and earn a modest salary as a teacher. My bank account with TD was set up long ago, would they know I hold US citizenship? Do I have anything to fear from this FATCA-IGA situation?
@snaggleToof
I think that you would get a better response to your question if you asked it in the
‘Ask your question’ FATCA section on the right hand side of the blog.. This isection is an old post and your question may have be overlooked by the experts.
You do not have a US birthplace, so you may be OK. Does the bank have any US info on you, such as an old US address or ID?. Do you hold a current US passport? Do you want to travel freely to and from the US in future?
It’s really all about the amount of risk you are willing to accept.
I talked with a friend today who recently spoke with an RBC bank manager who indicated that anyone they will have as having been born in the US will be required to fill out RBC forms yearly, whether or not there is a CLN in hand. Has anyone else gotten such information? Vast opportunity for mistakes by financial institution employees collecting and handling our data, yearly forms not being received, filled out and returned on time to prevent financial information going onward seems to await.
Here is a pdf of a recent survey taken from those who will be deciding on how to handle our information: http://www.gatepoint.info/pSimplyDirect/pulse/MindtreeFATCAFinal.pdf, from http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1421700/mindtree-survey-finds-more-than-two-thirds-of-finance-executives-say-complexity-of-fatca-requirements-hinders-ability-to-comply.
My friends Laura and Shelene have children graduating from high school this year. They recently opened a bank account for grad fest at the RBC. They received a letter and 3 – four pages of paperwork two weeks later. She told me last weekend. They have thirty days to respond. RBC is asking if they are US persons for tax purposes. In the event that they fail to respond, RBC will send the information to the CRA. They aren’t US citizens. The paper work asked if it was a personal account, corporation or non – profit.
@ Ann #1
I don’t know if you are in a position to influence your friends’ choice of bank.
If you are, urge them to open the account with a local credit union.
And urge them to move any existing accounts to the local credit union.
The service is better, the fees lower and there is far less mickey-mouse BS.
And the earnings benefit the members and the community; not a banks’ shareholders.
Why do business with any bank that has a substantial US presence?
If its a high school, chances are there is already a credit union serving the school’s staff and employees. Give that credit union the business!
Finally, maybe just let the banks send the info to CRA. What happens then? Maybe EVERYONE in Canada should tell their banks they are so-called “US-persons”. Swamp them with useless information. Back when America had real leaders, one of them famously said: “Ich bin ein Berliner.”
@Wondering
Data from “everyone in Canada” might make Canadian data useless for FATCA purposes, but it would be valid data that is not useless for many other nefarious purposes. Who knows who could get their hands on all of it, or how it could be used.
@Ann #1
The start of the hunt as we thought would happen… I would look for another bank… if that does not work out… then locate a credit union to do business with… RBC is acting like they are doing everyone a favour by letting them use their bank… Lets do them a bigger favour… use a bank who wants your business or credit union… unless u are in Quebec… haven’t located a credit union who is not reporting… not that I have been looking that hard… Family has already closed every account at RBC… which is sad cause we have been with them forever… But if they would do this nonsense.. how do I know they won’t take funds our of my account cause they think I am american which I am not to cover something they think I owe… without due process
@Ann#1
Would it be possible to get the exact wording of the letter? They were asked if they were US persons for tax purposes and told that they must respond either way within 30 days.
Now that’s a recipe for disaster in that even someone who considers themselves an American may not even imagine themselves being a US person for “tax purposes”. What reasonable person would? Also, anyone having to inform the bank that they AREN’T a US person for tax purposes will produce many of the same problems that negative billing does, only with more disastrous results and less recourse.
I guess that’s how RBC might get around the issue of discrimination – suspect every applicant of being a US person for tax purposes and put the onus on the applicant to confirm either way. You say what the letter said if they didn’t respond, but did the letter state also what RBC would do with the information once the potential customer confirmed their status?
Insane.
Not “Sid”, but “said”!
So RBC is allowing people to open accounts then hitting them weeks later with a “gotcha” letter that they must respond to, rather than offering their customers the option to close their accounts if they are? This is entrapment!
Shouldn’t disclosure of being a ‘US person for tax purposes’ be a condition of opening the account?
@US_Foreign_Person,
I have found 3 Manitoba-based credit unions that are available Canada-wide, including Quebec. They are not “community” credit unions, but neither are the big banks. Their high-interest savings accounts (1.8%-1.9%) have chequing and Ding-Free AccuLink ATM cards. There are no monthly fees. The only catch is that you have to make the initial deposit with a personalized cheque from another Canadian bank.
Achieva Financial, Implicity Financial and Maxa Financial.
@WhatAmI
Thank u for the info u provided… so far I have been lucky… no questions as of yet… but RBC really surprised me with this approach… Its prove u are not a *US Person* in my own dang country… what freaking nerve…. Once I heard about the way they were dealing with issue… I had the *entire* family pull out & go elsewhere….
@US_Foreign_Person,
This example of “entrapment” by RBC is unforgivable. Hopefully it’s only because the procedure and form is new and they will present it at account opening time in the future, with no action taken if the prospective new client chooses to walk instead of opening the account.
I will ask Laura if she has already return the form to the bank. She didn’t know how to fill out the form and she was going back with her Canadian birth certificate to ask the bank to fill the form out. She would then sign. She didn’t understand many of the questions.
@Ann#1
Unbelievable that RBC would do this after the account was opened. What a hassle for your friends. Hopefully a Canadian birth certificate will be the end of it. If they give her a hard time she should mention her lawyer and the entrapment element of the whole shoddy affair!
@Ann#1
Thanks for keeping us posted. A couple of things are not clear to me because, for example, they asked if the account was a personal account, corporation or non-profit. If RBC opened the account, they should already know that due to the paperwork required to open the account.
Is it possible that opening the account at the Grad Fest was a preliminary step (eg a short form), after which RBC sent the complete paperwork to fill out? Seems that bank account opening forms are 3-4 pages these days. Is this 3-4 more pages in addition to that and specifically, or mainly, dealing with US personhood? (I have seen the are you a US person question on bank account opening forms recently, but only as one, or a few, yes/no questions amongst a slew of other questions on other matters.)
Pacifica 777- I don’t know the answer to your questions, only that she received the letter and form. She told me because she is worried about the situation and asked if I had received a letter. I told her that I believed that right now it’s only for new accounts. She has many friends who are dual. I would not be surprised if half of Fort St John, BC are American Citizens, duals or tainted somehow. A religious sect started by a man called Sam Fife had many communities in the 1970’s and beyond in the Fort St John area. Most came from the states. They lived together like the Hutterites.
@ Ann #1,
I was thinking that if the account is not yet opened – that is if this form were step 2 of a 2 step process in order to create an account – a person would still be able to not complete the procedure and go somewhere else instead, perhaps a local credit union, and, as the account never existed, there would be no account for RBC to report.
At any rate, I hope things work out for your friend and her friends.
I think I will try opening a small RBC account on line this weekend and see if I get a letter in two weeks. If I do, I will try filing a Human Rights complaint and see what happens.
Blaze. Not sure of your point. RBC is required by Canadian law to ask if a new account holder is a “US person” They are not supposed to ask for place of birth. Having said that, they are being stupid- a couple of high school students opening a small temporary account for grad.! Probably the forms were computer generated.
Has anyone noticed TD’s new commercial this week? I keep seeing them on CTV News channel. The theme song from the 80s tv show Greatest American Hero, telling us their !! US bank !! has many branches to help us when we’re in the US!
Makes me want to shoot my tv. I’ve muttered a few expletives in my living room the past few days. Even my Canadian born husband is irked by the commercials.
I haven’t seen the commercial, The Mom, but I know the emotional reaction. I refer to it as my “Tourette’s”. I’m glad your regular Canadian husband understands, otherwise you would be alone with your ‘disorder’. Many people are. I hope they visit Brock.
Apologies for cross posting with the Expat Taxes discussion, but how are former US citizens at IBS dealing with W8-BEN (or, from January 2015, W8-BEN-E) forms? is it correct that (A) completed W8 forms self-certify that one is an non-US-resident, non-US-person for US tax/FATCA purposes? (B) that the older (simpler) W8-BEN form can be used until the end of 2014? (C) that W8-BENs should be supplied not to the IRS but to one’s financial institutions? (D) that W8s should go to *each* of one’s financial institutions, regardless of how little is held in one’s name by that institution? (E) Is anyone taking the initiative to fill these in and submit them, or is everybody waiting to see what their financial institutions demand of them? Advice? Reasons? Many thanks for any thoughts on this.
@ King of the Road,
I think the W8-BEN-E is only for entities. I see that:
the current W8-BEN form says, just below the title at top of page:
“For use by individuals. Entities must use Form W-8BEN-E.”
the draft W-8BEN-E form says, just below the title at top of page:
“For use by entities. Individuals must use Form W8-BEN.”
Re (C) and (D). My understanding is that each financial institution individually asks for W8-BEN and it is kept on file by the FFI, not sent to IRS. (note: my understanding of IRS can be pretty shaky, so it would be good if someone confirms this.)
Re (E) I’d wait and see if the FFI brings it up or not, but everyone’s circumstances are different. That’s generally how I feel about things.
I note that it sounds like an FFI might use a different form — as the IGA says in Annex 1, “A self-certification that the account holder is not a US citizen or US person for tax purposes (which may be on an IRS W8-BEN form or similar agreed form).” So, I’d tend to wait and see what the FFI does.
Duke – just to clarify that the ladies opening the account at RBC for Grad Fest are moms, a bookkeeper and a school teacher with children graduating this year. They are part of the Grad fest Committee.