I am posting this thread on behalf of Charl who is wondering if anyone would be interested in protesting at the US consulates. Her mission is to educate the public, and get much needed media attention.
Charl says:
Most Canadians fortunate enough not to have a US branding, if they’ve even heard of FATCA amd FBAR, likely think it does not apply to them. They don’t readily see that legislation to implement a FATCA IGA will allow the US government to rob Canada of a significant portion of its assets, and that the Canadian government is actually paying to allow the US to steal from the tax base of Canada.
We need to expose the real numbers of dollars that the US is attempting to extract from Canadians. For example, there are estimated to be over one million Canadians with ‘clinging US nationality’ (WhiteKat loves this term, but forgets who came up with it). Even if only half of these unfortunate Canadians are exposed, and each has an average of 3 accounts never previously revealed to the USA on FBARs, the penalties owed would be at minimum $90 billion dollars (3 accounts * $10K per account * 6 years * 500,000 Canadians). In addition to this siphoning off of wholly Canadian earned, already taxed in Canada savings, Canadian tax payers will be on the hook for the welfare support that will be required by financially devastated Canadians, deemed ‘US persons’ and thus US taxpayers by the USA. In addition, the Canadian banks are spending billions to become FATCA compliant; guess who will be paying the banks’ FATCA compliance costs?
I am thinking that a good venue for a public protest would be to hold simultaneous protests at all US consulates in Canada. If we can get large numbers of angry Canadians showing up at all US consulates on the same day to make a huge noise, perhaps we can get some major attention from Canadian media. Although it would be nice to have the consulates themselves hear us, that is secondary in my opinion. For some reason, despite many attempts by concerned Canadians, regarding the seriousness of this issue, the Canadian press is not picking up on this US attack on Canada to any major degree. I fear that most of our MPs do not understand the unintended fallout of the ‘wonderful’ deal our government has made with the devil, once it has exposed to the IRS, those Canadians whose dominant nationality is Canadian, but who USA claims as its own, in USA’s immoral quest to impose a form of taxation that drastically conflicts with internationally accepted norms.
For best effect, we should be BIG and LOUD, and do what is necessary to get lots of attention. Rally your friends, families, and neighbours to join us. Our government may be terrified of the US, but we little folk, afraid as we may be, realize what is at stake to ALL Canadians, and are brave enough to come out and push back at the bully to our south.
The world is watching to see how Canada will react to FATCA, as Canada has the most IRS targeted, so-called ‘US persons’ in the world. As such, our country has a moral obligation to be a world leader and to give other countries the courage to stand up to the US’s bullying tactics and extra-territorial overreach. Imagine all countries saying ‘NO’, if we can show them the way.
If you all think this is a good idea, we would have to choose a date, advertise the event, devise/modify and print out FATCA educational materials (update the FATCA fact sheet), create signs, see if other groups (perhaps those with protesting experience) will join us, etc. I have a few ideas, but need more if we have any possibility of doing this.
What do my fellow Brockers think?
Ok that last sentence didn’t make sense. I wish there was an edit button.
Perhaps the Robert Reich approach to inequality should be used by Anti-FATCA.
Please watch this clip at the beginning.
You know with all the biracial marriages today (mine is one of them), how long will it be before every family in Canada has someone related to them who is a so called US Person?
It’s like the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. Pretty soon there won’t be anybody in Canada who does not have a relative who is affected by FATCA.
The Harper government often refers to itself when implementation of Canadian laws as The HARPER Government instead of the Canadian Government.. Harper owns FATCA . My own “wash his hands of FATCA” NDP MP told me to press the PCs. They signed the IGA
Friends I am feeling very mentally ill from FATCA. I feel dead inside. Sorry if in have not contributed of late.
Not to be a wet blanket… but a protest imo… at the consulates makes it look like a US problem only and not a canadian problem. I have been in NY when there have been protests at the consulates… people walking by not paying any attention because they didn’t realize it had anything to do with them… Also… I think there is some sort of permit is required to do this because it could have *natl security* issues. I am guessing… I think it would work better if it was aimed at canadian gov’t rather then foreign gov’t. Money flowing out of the canadian gov’t will make all canadians pay more… or … Banks will raise all fees to cover the american laws… hit them at the pocket… that will make people pay attention if this will effect their pockets. Privacy is another thing people are becoming aware of… Big brother will be watching u… even if u don’t know it by keeping track of your money… or whatever else
OMG: just a little wordy — if you give something you’d rather say, I can change it for you.
northernstar: I hope you can make taking care of yourself by getting to this session a reality: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/11/traumatized-by-the-irs-and-us-reaching-into-canada-revisited/. I wish I could. (In the meantime, my therapy continues to be not sitting in a corner, being a good girl and being quiet.)
Also refer to: http://citizenshipsolutions.ca/counseling-vs-counselliing/emotional-counselling-for-those-threatened-by-the-fatca-roundup/
US_Person_Foreigner,
You have good points. At the US Consulate in Calgary, the average guy on the street would not even know we are protesting in front of the US Consulate (besides that, the Calgary US Consulate isn’t in a particularly good location for people who are going to even start to understand what the heck we’re doing). There is a US flag at the very top of the building if you back up far enough to be able to see it next to the Canadian flag that also flies there.
Besides, the Department of State (and US Consulates / Embassies) are completely separate from the US Treasury and IRS. They don’t even like each other, seemingly.
@northernstar, I’m so sorry to hear you are feeling so ill because of this. The government that you pay taxes to to protect you is not doing it’s job. They took your taxes but didn’t provide you with the protection those taxes are meant to pay for. Hell even the Mafia has better morals than that, you pay them taxes you get protection.
Remember what goes around comes around. Pretty soon we will be making the Conservative Canadian government feel ill inside. They have no moral defense for their actions. They will try to hide from journalists who eventually will wake up and start asking questions they should have been asking all along like “Why did you surrender Canada’s sovereignty to the US?”
@northernstar,
Hang in there. You will get through this. You have done alot already. Your CLN is on its way. You are no longer a USP. You will be fine.
Give yourself a break. Spring is almost here. Don’t despair.
Remember, marathon not sprint. If you’re winded, take time out to catch your breath. Take care.
Think how far we’ve all come together here. This is receiving more attention slowly. If your (opposition?) MP and his party aren’t willing to press the Harper government on FATCA, then remember that at election time – and raise it in public debates and embarrass them with it – FATCA will be much better known by then one way or the other. They had the chance to stand up and be seen as heroes saving Canadians from foreign US extortion, and if they won’t stand up – well, history will record what side they were on. From the exchange I read on another thread, they certainly by now know what a serious and worrying issue this truly is. And they know that there are others who are also concerned, but who aren’t contacting them (yet). Let that be a warning to the MP that it will be dangerous to fob us off on the Harperites. And of course they know full well that the Harperites are busy fobbing us off with platitudes and misdirection (like the ‘answer’ Flaherty gave to MP May in Parliament, or the email calgary411 got from the federal dept. responsible for Persons with Disabilities, or the disingenuous answers from K-L Findlay).
Really, MPs have to get themselves together. Do they realize that one group affected (those with assets of any size) are those most likely to vote and make donations? Do they realize that the issue of them doing nothing to counter the US asserting the right to extraterritorially tax Canadian children’s RESP and dependents RDSP alone are so obvious and egregious an insult to Canadian sovereignty that it is going to make them look like willing accomplices to US robbery? And that is very obvious without even trying to explain all the intricate details of FATCA.
Hang in there northernstar, continue to shine!
@northernstar
I understand your feelings & despair… we are all in the same boat… remember… u are not alone.
My dad has a different view…. even though he said this crap is bs & will come back to bite them in the butt… hard… he survived a war… with alot of his family intact… they escape the communist just days before their areas was taken over.. they had to start over more then once with hardly nothing in their pockets… they worked hard… to get where they are today… no f*ing gov’t will take him down.. he is old… & now he seems to be cursing like a sailor…lol
@calgary411
I am hoping to go to the Richmond Hill info, especially for the psychologist. I went to a Brock session before in a Church in Toronto. My mine is so fogged up. I think it may have been in 2013, summer. I was still pretty new on Brock and was not feeling like I am now. I think my MP charlie Angus triggered it. with his “Pontius Pilate” like comment that I should press the PC government against the IGA as they signed it.
@omgheesstillanamerican
Thanks for your support. The thing is when the election comes I fear it will be fixed. Remember the Harper party has been accused of election fraud.
@Badger
My CLN may take longer than a year. I am juggling my bank accounts. I spent a lot of money this past year on hearing aid, new car, a new trailer. and gifts. This is money I wanted to spend on buying a house. I feel like I am in cage.
I have lost ALL respect for politicians, and bankers and my Cdn government. I once thought Obama was going to do so much good. What a very big let down. He is exactly like the cardboard cutout that I stood next to on his inauguration with so much hope for the USA. I had my picture takes with a glass of wine in my had with a toast. Little did I know I was toasting my own decline.
From Wikipedia definition of sovereignty, emphasis is mine:
“For centuries past, the idea that a state could be sovereign was always connected to its ability to guarantee the best interests of its own citizens. Thus, if a state could not act in the best interests of its own citizens, it could not be thought of as a “sovereign” state.”
@US_Person_Foreigner
I am ready to become a survivalist. I can not count on my own government to protect me.
At WhiteKat’s suggestion, I’m posting the following email that I sent to all the usual suspects on Parliament Hill. Others might want to email something similar. The $90 billion total is a bit of an overstatement, given those penalties aren’t collectible by CRA, but even so, it’s a valid and striking demonstration of how vicious FATCA is and how stupid Canada’s signature on the IGA is.
So FWIW, feel free to use as and if you wish:
(to the usual suspects on Parliament Hill:)
It is vital that Parliament vote against the intergovernmental agreement between Canada and the US to implement FATCA on US soil. This ill-conceived agreement not only violates the Section 15 Charter rights of Canadians of US national origin or parentage, and provincial jurisdiction over credit unions in Canada, the legislation to implement it will allow the US government to rob Canada of a significant portion of its citizens’ assets. Under this agreement, the Canadian government is actually paying to allow the US to steal from the tax base of Canada.
There are estimated to be over one million Canadians who might qualify as having “US indicia” within the terms of US legislation. Even if only half of these unfortunate Canadians have their private financial information cravenly surrendered to the IRS by CRA, and each has an average of 3 accounts never previously revealed to the USA on FBAR forms, the non-filing penalties that the IRS would attempt to claim against those accounts could total at minimum $90 billion (3 accounts * $10K per account * 6 years * 500,000 Canadians; that $10,000 figure is the MINIMUM fine under IRS regulations for failure to file an FBAR). In addition to this siphoning off of wholly Canadian earned, already taxed in Canada savings, Canadian tax payers could be on the hook for the welfare support that will be required by financially devastated Canadians, deemed ‘US persons’ and thus US taxpayers by the USA, if these penalties were ever enforced. In addition, the Canadian banks are spending billions to become FATCA compliant; those costs will be borne by every Canadian who has a Canadian bank account, through increased user fees.
These accounts are not held by “tax cheats.” These accounts are legally held by Canadian-resident Canadian citizens, containing money earned in Canada and already taxed in Canada (at higher rates than most Americans pay on their incomes). And that estimate of $90 billion is solely for non-filing penalties, even if no taxes were owing to the IRS. Penalties claimed by a foreign government that has a nationality-based, rather than residence-based, taxation system, penalties claimed by a government that provides no goods, services or benefits to any of these account holders, whose sole sources of government goods, services and benefits are the Government of Canada, the governments of their provinces of residence, and the governments of their municipalities. Which governments will have to provide welfare to any of those persons whose assets and retirements will be devastated by these penalties claimed by a foreign government, if enforced or paid.
Canada cannot afford this. Canadians cannot afford this. Our so-called economic recovery cannot afford this.
Flaherty says, and the tax convention confirms, that these penalties will not be collected by CRA. However anyone who is assessed these non-filing penalties and refuses to pay them, likely will be unable to cross the US border without fear of arrest and seizure, for the rest of their lives. The damage that will do to cross-border trade, and the disruption to cross-border families, is hard to calculate but could be significant. The anger aroused by this against the United States and any political party that participates in this action, will also be significant and will have grave long-term political consequences.
This approach to going after “tax cheats” is not going to catch any true tax cheats, but will however devastate thousands of innocent Canadians. FATCA and the intergovernmental agreement are a foolish, stupid, and vicious demonization and persecution of persons who chose to develop loyal and fulfilling lives in Canada rather than live in the United States, aided and abetted by a craven surrender of Canada’s sovereignty by Canada’s own federal government. Canada would never do this for the government of Eritrea, the only other country with citizenship- or nationality-based taxation; it should never do this for the government of the United States. This agreement and legislation are a hypocritical mockery of the government’s celebration of the War of 1812 and of the words “we stand on guard for thee” in our national anthem.
Repeal this agreement, and do not approve the legislation.
northernstar, I often refer to / think of the advice that gets me through one day to another — some of the best from USCitizenAbroad:
Constant awareness is important. None of us should ever count on our own governments to protect us — that’s what sheeple do.
@Calgary411 Letter to Pape-done
My thought on the consulates was at least there would be a uniform place across Canada. My hallucinations see the front page headlines: “Canadians protest at US Consulates across Canada. Conservative government succumbing to US extortion and surrendering of Canadian sovereignty”. (OMG/411 I rather like that line) Even if we can’t be out front at least near for a clear headline.
@northernstar Yup, I’m going bat sh#t crazy myself. Maybe there will be group lobotomies at the Richmond Hill session, for me that’s what it would take. We have got to hang in here…if I am going down the FBAR drain I am going to go down screaming. Someone posted someplace that they swing between homicidal rage and suicidal depression. Boy did that speak volumes. But when I sit in rage I move, when I sit in depression I zone out. At the end of the day we just have to fight the good fight and let go of the outcome. What is that expression…something about all that it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. We are in this together, maybe up against the wall (to channel Jefferson Airplane) but together. We could play that song really LOUD at our rally. Maybe we just need a HUGE keg party/ waky tobaky….something to lighten the mood, allow us to laugh at ourselves and rally our forces to burn the ramparts. This is only a life event, not who we are. When we are all bankrupt maybe we can start a FATCA commune (I grow a mean onion).
@omgheesstillanamerican, re voting Conservative and entrepreneurship
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/15/protesting-at-the-us-consulates/comment-page-2/#comment-1236365
I don’t know anything about this organization below, so I can only note that this business organization CFIB which might be worth checking out – it describes itself as; “….over 109,000 small business owners from coast-to-coast – entrepreneurs just like you – the Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB) is the big voice for small businesses. For over 40 years, we have represented the interests of the small business community to all three levels of government in their fight for tax fairness…….”
CFIB had this notice against FATCA on their website for quite a while, and by the content they seem to really get it:
http://www.cfib-fcei.ca/english/article/5325-us-law-could-erase-privacy-protections-are-you-affected.
“US law could erase privacy protections – are you affected?
Many small business owners in Canada have business partners or family members with U.S. citizenship or dual citizenship. On January 1st, 2014, a U.S. law, the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is set to erase certain privacy protections now taken for granted in Canada. You could be affected if you are:
A U.S. citizen living in Canada,
A Canadian/U.S. dual-citizen living in Canada
A Canadian citizen connected through family or business to a U.S. citizen living in Canada
Plus:
You have money or assets held in a Canadian bank
Two practical effects FATCA could have:
Loss of privacy pertaining to information held in Canadian accounts
New potentially onerous filing obligations with the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
Canadian banks are obligated to protect personal information in Canada under The Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA). However, on January 1st, 2014, FATCA will demand that Canadian banks hand over to the IRS personal information found in Canadian bank accounts linked to U.S. citizenship. Should a Canadian citizen’s information be found there as well, it too will be turned over. Canadian banks have said they will cooperate with the IRS.
While FATCA aims to bring U.S. citizens living abroad into tax compliance, it is likely to have unintended consequences. Along with a loss of privacy for citizens outside of the United States, there will also be new filing obligations to manage, red tape to overcome and extra accounting costs incurred.
To inquire about the interaction of Canadian laws, FATCA and the IRS, please contact the office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada.
To understand IRS-mandated filing implications please speak with your accountant.
To understand how your financial institution will hand over your information when requested by the IRS please contact your bank.
Should you have other questions, please contact a business counsellor at 1-888-234-2232 or cfib@cfib.ca. ”
It will be very interesting to see what happens since often the Conservatives like to say that they support business and entrepreneurship, but it appears that really means that they support BIG BANsters and the like.
Even AmCham was against FATCA – although I note that the very strong anti-FATCA statement is gone from their website. You might be able to access it (2 pages per person without registration) here: http://archive-ca.com/ca/a/amchamcanada.ca/2013-03-05_1551263_18/Members_The_American_Chamber_of_Commerce_in_CANADA/
See this current though:
http://www.amchamcanada.ca/policy
“….Our initial call was focused on identifying advocacy issues and establishing subcommittees to develop positions papers. The committee established three subcommittees to address the following issues:
The new Net Investment Income Tax (known as the Obamacare tax) may subject many Americans living in Canada to double taxation on their investment income. The subcommittee will review the issue with the goal of drafting a position paper on how relief should be provided to alleviate double taxation.
US tax law subjects US citizens and US residents to complex reporting requirements if they own or receive distributions from Canadian Registered Education Savings Plans or Tax Free Savings Accounts. Since many Americans in Canada as well as Canadians living in the US have these plans, it is a significant burden to comply with all the rules. Huge penalties can apply for failure to properly comply. The subcommittee will review the issue and draft a position paper to seek relief from the US Treasury and IRS, similar to the relief the tax committee was able to obtain for RRSPs and RRIF.
A subcommittee has been formed dealing with US voluntary disclosure for Americans who have not properly filed their US income tax returns and information returns. The taxation committee had previously met with the IRS to discuss relief for Americans in Canada who did not properly file returns. This led to a “streamlined filing compliance procedure ”. Although the new procedure is a huge improvement from the harsh Voluntary Disclosure Program, it still leaves many ambiguities as well as many people who may not qualify. The subcommittee will review current practices and draft a position paper seeking further guidance and relief.
Another subcommittee was formed to address the harsh Canadian withholding requirements on US persons (including companies) doing business in Canada. It is difficult to avoid the withholding even if the amounts are exempt from tax due to a provision of the treaty, resulting in administrative challenges to get the withholding refunded. The subcommittee will review the issues with the goal to draft a position paper to relieve the administrative hurdles.
The committee has established a schedule of conference calls on key cross border tax issues for discussion among tax professionals.
If you want to participate in the activities of AmCham Canada Taxation Committee, please contact Committee Chairman, Jim Yager”
I like the use of the term “diaspora tax” in place of “US persons subjected to citizenship based taxation”.
So much simpler to understand and involves looking up only one word if they don’t know what it means. “Diaspora” avoids the issues that “citizen” brings – things like patriotism, duty, etc and better represents the faces of those that CBT actually affects – those with tenuous ties to the US.
Merriam Webster defines:
di·as·po·ra noun \dī-ˈas-p(ə-)rə, dē-\
: a group of people who live outside the area in which they had lived for a long time or in which their ancestors lived
And Vocabulary.com:
A diaspora is a large group of people with a similar heritage or homeland who have since moved out to places all over the world.
The term diaspora comes from an ancient Greek word meaning “to scatter about.” And that’s exactly what the people of a diaspora do — they scatter from their homeland to places across the globe, spreading their culture as they go. The Bible refers to the Diaspora of Jews exiled from Israel by the Babylonians. But the word is now also used more generally to describe any large migration of refugees, language, or culture.
What we are feeling is betrayal and not being able to trust, now in so many areas of our lives. We must not give power over us to random words of our government representatives. Who are they to be given such power? We will be more aware of where our votes go next time round, whatever side of a border.
Thanks for that definition, OMG!
… and by the way, I agree that protesting at the consulates or the embassy would be a huge waste of time and energy IMO. We have all sorts of demonstrations here in Ottawa on Parliament Hill and sometimes at various embassies, almost every weekend, and no one (including me) except the demonstrators and their immediate families pays the slightest blind attention to them unless they’re obstructing traffic, in which case everyone just gets pissed off at them. It’s counter-productive. And pointless; the US personnel in those buildings don’t give a tinker’s damn what the protestors think about anything, nor do MSM in the US nor politicians on Capitol Hill in Washington.
The only protests that are going to matter are against the Conservatives and arguably also against the chartered banks. And the only protests that will have any effect even there, are votes on election day in the former case, and account withdrawals and widespread (not just “US-person”) boycotts in the latter case. And withdrawal of political contributions to opposition parties that sit on their butts and channel Pontius Pilate when it comes to constituents complaining about FATCA. Votes and money count; very little else does with these people.
And don’t invest a cent in the US, and find somewhere other than Florida and California to take your winter vacations. And don’t buy anything “made in the USA” unless you have absolutely no other choice in the marketplace. Don’t vote for any politician or political party that supports “free trade” with the US. BTW it was the Conservatives, and no one else, that brought us the joys of NAFTA and are bringing us the joys of negotiated-in-secrecy “free trade” agreements with countries that pay substandard wages, have lousy working and environmental regulations, and take away jobs from Canadian workers. Not to mention aping the US tradition of “omnibus” legislation and debate closure and other unparliamentary and undemocratic practices. And raping the environment to extract dirty and unsustainable energy sources. I can go on and on but won’t any further. Collectively, if not individually, we deserve what we vote for, except when the people we voted for were liars. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. And then there’s FATCA and the IGA.
At least that’s my take on the situation.
@Charl
You make me laugh with your “mean onion”. I don’t think I would be against living in a commune of like minded people. This week I took out my book ‘PASSPORT TO SURVIVAL” It gives ways to store food and other actions in case of emergencies. this spring I will get good on shooting a long gun. I have my license.
@Shubert1975
You write the truth… but I don’t know if we can stop the destruction of democracy.
I find this article does cover taxes we the small ordinary people are not going to fare well.
However, today’s U.S. has eliminated taxes on all estates below $5 million, and has lowered the taxation-rate on large estates. This means that some babies enter this world with more money than the average American draws as income throughout his or her entire lifetime. Other children are born with little or nothing, and must go into debt in order merely to survive. Their children suffer even worse. Then their wages are garnisheed to pay those debts. Serfdom emerges and spreads.”
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-U-S-Is-Abandoning-Dem-by-Eric-Zuesse-Bush-Enemy-Of-Democracy_Constitution-In-Crisis_Constitution-The_Constitutional-Issues-140316-738.html
@US_Person_Foreigner. I think you are correct. I have seen many protests at the US Consulate and ordinary Canadians could not care less. Most think the whole world has a gripe with the US, so they ignore those protests.
How does one include an image in a post here?