I am posting this thread on behalf of Charl who is wondering if anyone would be interested in protesting at the US consulates. Her mission is to educate the public, and get much needed media attention.
Charl says:
Most Canadians fortunate enough not to have a US branding, if they’ve even heard of FATCA amd FBAR, likely think it does not apply to them. They don’t readily see that legislation to implement a FATCA IGA will allow the US government to rob Canada of a significant portion of its assets, and that the Canadian government is actually paying to allow the US to steal from the tax base of Canada.
We need to expose the real numbers of dollars that the US is attempting to extract from Canadians. For example, there are estimated to be over one million Canadians with ‘clinging US nationality’ (WhiteKat loves this term, but forgets who came up with it). Even if only half of these unfortunate Canadians are exposed, and each has an average of 3 accounts never previously revealed to the USA on FBARs, the penalties owed would be at minimum $90 billion dollars (3 accounts * $10K per account * 6 years * 500,000 Canadians). In addition to this siphoning off of wholly Canadian earned, already taxed in Canada savings, Canadian tax payers will be on the hook for the welfare support that will be required by financially devastated Canadians, deemed ‘US persons’ and thus US taxpayers by the USA. In addition, the Canadian banks are spending billions to become FATCA compliant; guess who will be paying the banks’ FATCA compliance costs?
I am thinking that a good venue for a public protest would be to hold simultaneous protests at all US consulates in Canada. If we can get large numbers of angry Canadians showing up at all US consulates on the same day to make a huge noise, perhaps we can get some major attention from Canadian media. Although it would be nice to have the consulates themselves hear us, that is secondary in my opinion. For some reason, despite many attempts by concerned Canadians, regarding the seriousness of this issue, the Canadian press is not picking up on this US attack on Canada to any major degree. I fear that most of our MPs do not understand the unintended fallout of the ‘wonderful’ deal our government has made with the devil, once it has exposed to the IRS, those Canadians whose dominant nationality is Canadian, but who USA claims as its own, in USA’s immoral quest to impose a form of taxation that drastically conflicts with internationally accepted norms.
For best effect, we should be BIG and LOUD, and do what is necessary to get lots of attention. Rally your friends, families, and neighbours to join us. Our government may be terrified of the US, but we little folk, afraid as we may be, realize what is at stake to ALL Canadians, and are brave enough to come out and push back at the bully to our south.
The world is watching to see how Canada will react to FATCA, as Canada has the most IRS targeted, so-called ‘US persons’ in the world. As such, our country has a moral obligation to be a world leader and to give other countries the courage to stand up to the US’s bullying tactics and extra-territorial overreach. Imagine all countries saying ‘NO’, if we can show them the way.
If you all think this is a good idea, we would have to choose a date, advertise the event, devise/modify and print out FATCA educational materials (update the FATCA fact sheet), create signs, see if other groups (perhaps those with protesting experience) will join us, etc. I have a few ideas, but need more if we have any possibility of doing this.
What do my fellow Brockers think?
@WhiteKat:
This is another estimate of the potential wealth transfer to the US of USP assets in Canada using an FBAR penalty approach based on gross financial assets (and disregarding the number of financial accounts):
Gross financial wealth per capita, Canada: Eur 105,000 (1)
x y/e 2012 f/x rate, Eur to USD: 1.3219
Gross financial wealth per capita, Canada: US$138,800
x 1,000,000 USPs in Canada
Total financial assets of USPs in Canada: US$1,388,000,000 ($1.388 billion)
x 50% common FBAR penalty for “offshore” assets held by USPs
Total FBAR penalties on USP financial accounts held by USPs resident in Canada: US$69.4 billion
(1) – “Global financial assets of private households” (at 2012), Allianz, dated Sep 2013, p. 9
Note: the above two approaches do not include an estimated average of $30,000 in fees that would be paid by USPs in Canada to accounting and legal firms to enter the standard OVDP or for FBAR litigation.
Pierre D, I think you may be right.
We were discussing “petitions” on another thread, and I think the same applies for the low turn-out at protests at this point. I think a FATCA protest in conjunction with some other bigger protest would be better in order at this point.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/10/canada-will-have-to-apologize-to-eritrea/comment-page-3/#comment-1223621
I see that one of my comments at the avaaz-org petition post was:
It’s sort of a which comes first, the chicken or the egg question. I’m just saying this looking at previous good attempts at FATCA protests. If getting a huge number of folks to protest is the goal, I don’t think we are at that point yet. But, I salute anyone’s attempts at trying again with new strategies. (I say this as knowing how it felt to be a lone protester in Calgary one day and one of two protesters the next day — thank you, dear “outraged”. The second day with two persons was more successful in speaking one on one to brave people who approached us and asked questions without feeling threatened. My first “alone” day I was protesting in conjunction with other protests to the same audience (the attendees of the PC Convention in Calgary) — although the protester numbers were larger, there was not as much opportunity for people asking specific questions about what FATCA was and why they should care — except those posed by the other protesters, which in itself was positive. Just my looney’s worth.)
Inform the press too
we should participate in social protest demonstrations of other movements. most do not like the US already,
this would add another reason for their dislike. FATCA is wealth re-distribution, using financial institutions to funnel the implementation and recurring costs in the form of higher fees from the least rich of every country to the wealthy, mostly US-based FATCA Compliance Cartel,
I think that someone should look into the legality of protesting in front of the the U.S. Consulate. Because of heightened security concerns, there may be some restrictions on whether a large group can protest directly in front of the Consulate. Someone should look into this.
Further, I think we need to get our message straight, before we start trying to inform the Canadian public. For Canadians who are “accidental Americans” the issue may be “clinging American citizenship”. For Canadians who are dual citizens, the issue is one of elements within the U.S. government attempting to downgrade their U.S. citizenship to something called “U.S. Person” and to tax them as though they are an American resident in the U.S. even though they are not provided the same level of services and financial supports as an American resident within the U.S. It is probably because it is insupportable under almost any legal system to attempt to create different classes of citizenship, the U.S. is the only western country (perhaps the only country in the world) that is attempting to tax on-resident citizens under a citizen-based taxation scenario. Quite simply, the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution defines U.S. citizenship. This definition can not be changed nor another class of U.S. citizenship created without a change enacted to the 13th amendment, or without the U.S. ponying up the many millions of dollars it would cost the U.S. to extend the same financial supports and services to non-resident Americans as it does to resident Americans (if the U.S is going to assert that it can tax non-resident Americans as though they are resident within the U.S. The later is so costly that I strongly suspect it is why most other nations do not attempt to impose CBT on their non-resident citizens.
A legal challenge needs to be brought–most affordably and effectively through an organization such as the ACLU–to draw a decision from the U.S. Supreme Court on this business of some agency of the government attempting to define a new class of citizen by making policy. Can’t be legally done. The 13th Amendment has to be defended as the mechanism on which the definition of U.S. citizenship turns, If the integrity and in inviolability of U.S. citizenship is to remain in tact. If new classes of U.S. citizenship can be created willy nilly by various policies, nothing is standing in the way of various classes of citizenship–with varying rights and obligations–beginning to be splintered off and imposed over time. With the Canadian government having demonstrated its spineless support of this kind of underhanded undermining of citizenship, and with a history of Canadian governments tending to follow in the steps of American practices, tell me convincingly that we have any assurance that the Canadian government won’t, in the future, start trying to undermine the strength of Canadian citizenship by using policy to define different classes of citizenship. It will mean nothing to be Canadian. What class of Canadian you are is what will define your rights and privileges. The Canadian government, by agreeing to this CBT-related IGA– has already accepted that Canadians who are dual U.S.-Canadian citizens do not have the same rights to privacy as do other Canadians.
We can cut the head off of this snake by putting a working group together to make a presentation to the ACLU to take up the case of the unconstitutional nature of imposing resident taxation on non-resident Americans while not providing them with all the privileges and financial supports made available to resident Americans. If you wish to participate in a working group to put together a presentation to the ACLU to take up the case against CBT contact me at mstrunorth@gmail.com
@Susan Ouderkirk
Your descriptions of different citizenship status reminds me of a caste system as is India. Your ideas should be sent to our lawyer who is deciding if we can challenge FATCA in the courts.
I think Zoomer Magazine @ 30 Jefferson Avenue, Toronto ON M6K 1Y4 would be worthwhile contacting to do an article on FACTA and IGA and how it affects all Canadians. Gordon Pape and Michael Ryval come to mind as possible authors in question. I would think one of our published letters would work in this case to get the information out to the general public. What do you think?
@Ann
I tried several times. I never got a response from Zoomer. Why don’t you try? You might have better luck.
Anne,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Pape
Perhaps if you correspond with Zoomer, it would be good to get directly to Gordon Pape. It looks like he has skin in the game. As a “financial” person, he may be totally in compliance, etc. It would be good to find his take on FATCA for US Persons in Canada. http://www.everythingzoomer.com/gordon-pape-financial-advice-ask-questions/#.UyWvKM7-7vI. Thanks for your work on this.
What do I think — they haven’t answered my correspondence to articles they have written or even acknowledged. But, there are posts here regarding CARP, the mother of Zoomer (which I think is just mostly glossy expensive advertising pulling in the wealthier Boomers (and stretching the years of definition) who are stroked by being called Zoomers).
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/23/finance-minister-flaherty-has-responded-to-carp/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/15/speaking-of-carp-here-is-an-item-from-their-most-recent-online-newsletter/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/14/if-you-really-understood-fatca-you-would-not-support-it/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/05/04/arent-those-canadian-snowbirds-lucky-to-be-able-to-extend-their-stay-or-are-they/
Post 1or 2 people at all times, with signs, shouting at everyone who works or Visits there, time to get nasty and make some noise, round the clock….
Susan, if you go to the ARCHIVES on the home page and do a search for ACLU, you will come up with quite a bit of material you may wish to research as a start.
In Canada, should we be working through the CCLA? If so, I’d work through Abby Deshman. Have you viewed her presentation here? http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/12/28/fatca-fact-finding-forum-part-3-of-9-fatca-privacy-rights-issues-abby-deshman/
Are you looking at this as an American citizen who lives in Canada (and may not want to give up that US citizenship. You may have better traction going to the ACLU in that capacity?).
Here are some of the many references to ACLU correspondence / past requests to help:
There is a speaker from the ACLU at this: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/15/dinner-before-ccla-event-toronto-thursday-march-20/comment-page-1/#comment-1232118.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/01/01/robert-w-woods-rings-in-a-not-so-happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-909811
Several have contacted Jameel Jaffer, legal director of the ACLU, who said he cannot help — referred us to Peter Hogg and Joe Avray (and we are well there!).
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/08/15/drones-on-the-canadian-border/comment-page-2/#comment-259719
Mine is here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/01/15/canadian-government-should-not-be-complicit-in-making-life-miserable-for-any-of-its-law-abiding-dual-citizen-residentss/comment-page-1/#comment-142316
Thanks for your efforts, Susan.
This campaign needs an easily understandable idea such as Saachti and Saachti’s ‘Labour is working’ political poster in the 80s.
That’s where the SuperFund comes in.
Google image the poster it’s there. Saachti and Saachti’s ‘Labour is working’ political poster images
Ann,
OK, I’ve gone ahead and sent my request in — can others follow my request to Mr. Gordon Pape, Everything Zoomer?
@Don let’s brainstorm then have a vote!
US stealing Candian Assets
Uncle Sam wants YOU (With that famous picture of Uncle Sam pointing his finger)
US taking over Canada
Government caves to US
ummmm, I am not terribly creative. Other ideas? (All that comes to my addled brain has naughty words).
@Char, How about:
Broke US holds it’s friendly neighbour Canada hostage, demands Canadian tax payers pay taxes to the IRS. Canada has the world’s most secure financial sector which is now being threatened with crippling US sanctions if the Canadian government does not allow IRS to collect taxes from Canadian citizens.
or
Canadian government succumbs to unprecedented US extortion and surrenders Canada’s sovereignty.
OMG,
That’s a particularly good description: maybe change to “Canadian Conservative government…”
I’m listening to Michael Enright interview Dennis Howlett,executive director of Canadians for Tax Fairness.
http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/corporate-tax-avoidance-scheme-hurting-canada-expert-says-090000881.html
Michael said Jim Flaherty and Kerry Lynne Findley were invited to comment but declined.
That’s why the SuperFund is so important to get the creative minds cooking.
Labour Isn’t Working Poster
There’s the link, perhaps someone could paste it into IBS.
Maybe an offshot with Canadian holding buckets of money, going through the sign ‘Canadian Bank’ with Uncle Sam behind collecting the money. I don’t know what the strap line could be on top.
FATCA doesn’t Pay (then on the bottom ‘Only Canadians can tax Canadians’
But even if someone sees this brilliant poster and agrees to it, what can they do? Donate to the SuperFund.
Whatever the campaign it has to put the Harper Government in the position to have to make communicate the complex FATCA message, back into a simple message, winning the hearts and minds of Canadians that paying Uncle Sam taxes is good for Canada, and the IRS having Canadian FFI data is good as well.
Right now IBS is trying the opposite, trying to take the complex FATCA argument and try to simply it for the ‘man in the street’ to understand.
Start collecting the SuperFund. Because even if the court strikes down the IGA, you’ll need a strong lobbyist effort to stop the bastards in the Commons voting it in during the dead of the night with some new legal version of ‘discrimination.’
Focus way further down the road, not just at the legal opinion.
@calgary411, I agree with your correction.
Even though I’ve always voted Conservative because they were friendly to business (I am an entrepreneur after all), it’s time to hold them accountable for the loss of our country’s independence. I can’t believe how spineless they’ve proven to be.
At every turn we should emphasize that it was the Conservatives who surrendered our sovereignty and nobody else. The more we rub that in, the harder it will be for them to defend what they have done. Attack Conservatives from all sides including from within.
I am an American PATRIOT.
Persecuted American Taxpayer Resident In Overseas Territory
Thanks, Disgusted.
Here’s the CBC original, comments now closed. http://www.cbc.ca/news/corporate-tax-avoidance-scheme-hurting-canada-expert-says-1.2572712.
Mine is in the more than 1200 there, lost. I should look again, but there didn’t seem to be much highlighting FATCA.
How about a billboard to drag all the Canadian ‘US Persons,’ in public.
We are ‘US Persons’ and second class Canadians.
Pictures of all the well know Canadians who are dual citizens. Justin Beiber, New Brunswick Premier??, head of companies, singers, actors, TV / Radio Personalities,
(Implying their US tax affairs may not be up to scruff perhaps invoking a reaction somewhere, but at the same time inferring not all Canadians are equal).
How about:
DISCRIMINATION BY “NATIONAL ORIGIN” — CANADIANS DEEMED ‘US PERSONS’ AND “US TAXPAYERS RESIDENT IN CANADA”
or
CANADIAN GOVERNMENT & CANADIAN BANKERS ASSOCIATION:
DO NOT CALL CANADIANS “US TAXPAYERS RESIDENT IN CANADA”
We need to stop using the US government’s terminology. Every time we use the term “US Person” we confuse the issue. Regular Canadians have no idea what a “US Person” is. We are NOT “US Persons”. We are CANADIANS and should always refer to ourselves that way.
How about:
Conservative Canadian government legalizes national origin discrimination against Canadian citizens who have American relatives. This new form of legalized discrimination affects the finances of up to 4 million Canadians, some of whom have only 1 member of the family who has US ancestry.