397 thoughts on “The Canada United States FATCA Intergovernmental Agreement”
Another wrinkle that occurred to me, Canadians in the US who never declared themselves non-residents for tax purposes. Canada, if reciprocity happens and let’s be real on just how well the USG is on honoring their side of a deal, are soon to be hunted commodities too, yes?
Atticus, loyalty. Your family and dear friends are the only ones worthy. Govts are just parasites we put up with because … well … they own us and we have no choice anymore. No more frontiers to wander off to. We were all born about hundred or so years too late to know what freedom really is.
@nomad3
Precisely; I have no real ties to the US except for the fact that I was born there.
“The banks; unless you are suggesting that now the CRA will include on your T1 a section where I must self-certify if I am an American. But that is not what is happening here! The onus is on the Banks to identify and report.”
There already is a section where one indicates indicia of whether you are a citizen or not. What makes you think they won’t hand over the tax information (Canadian) of all those who indicate that they aren’t citizens of Canada? And don’t put it past the banks to forward the information of everyone who is “recalcitrant” in giving information as to their US person-hood. Once you’re flagged, US citizen/Canadian dual or not, you are going to be on the US radar because the CRA doesn’t have the manpower to look into whether or not it is a legitimate flag or not. They’ll just bundle up the info and send it packing to the IRS.
I don’t trust the United States, and as of today, I don’t trust my own country which I was born in (raised by two Canadians). My dog in this fight is my wife who is struggling to free the shackles of her former country of “allegiance”.
I became a citizen of Canada in 40 years ago, but I’ve been living here for 50 years. I’m almost 80 now. I served 3 years active duty at the tail end of the Korean war and 5 years in the reserves in the US Army.
I haven’t filed since I moved to Canada, and I don’t intend to now. I was told by the US Consulate that if I became a Citizen of Canada, I would loose my US citizenship. It was with that understanding that I swore my alligiance to the Queen.
I have to believe that Canadian Charter will protect me and my little family and the little pension that we live on.
It does not break my heart that I may have to give up my US citizenship — I would do it in a heartbeat; it breaks my heart that the US government has seen fit to be so fucking stupid as to make it impossible for me to do so without admitting to some cockamami crime.
But also what breaks my heart even more is the fact that the current government of my adopted country is willing to out me instead of standing up for me.
I wait for the Charter fight and I will support it every way I can.
I think my question is this; even if your bank does report you, what will actually happen to you? I have no reason to ever go to the US again. Could I just go on with my life?
1
: an economic good: as
a : a product of agriculture or mining
b : an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment
c : a mass-produced unspecialized product
2
a : something useful or valued ; also : thing, entity
b : convenience, advantage
3
obsolete : quantity, lot
4
: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (as brand name) other than price
5
: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market
See commodity defined for English-language learners »
See commodity defined for kids »
I’ll take my definition from Webster’s Dictionary, a fine tome that has been used for ages.
Gold may never deteriorate however, it is subject to valuation and that valuation can range from worthless to priceless based on the “market”.
I trust that the industry tomes that you have cited are paid shills for industry viewpoint.
@the animal
get lost. you are a plant. its SOOOO obvious. You do not know what you are talking about. Your comments on gold prove this. May I be the first to tell you to Fuck Off and Die?
@The_Animal
“There already is a section where one indicates indicia of whether you are a citizen or not. What makes you think they won’t hand over the tax information (Canadian) of all those who indicate that they aren’t citizens of Canada?”
Are you referring to the bottom of the first page of the T1 General? That section is only for Elections Canada and if you want to be on the National Register of Electors. Unless the CRA changes the T1 General to say “Are you an American citizen?”, my read is the onus is on the banks to determine who is or is not a US Person.
The onus will be on the banks to determine who is or is not a US Person. And I agree with you, I don’t trust the banks. And if you go to your local branch and ask any of the front-line staff about this, you get blank stares. They have no bloody idea about FATCA. All those guys in your branch are there to do is sell product. That’s it.
I sympathize with the problems facing your wife.
…also, where your industry tomes are erroneous is that there is artificial value attached. Gold is ONLY A CURRENCY if there is value attached to it. Otherwise it is just a shiny rock.
gold worthless….Every currency in the world has eventually ended up at ZERO value. Every ounce of gold ever mined is still with us, something I wish I can’t say about you and your total misinformation
Stooping to insults, Cheers… How very erudite of you. I’ll return the favor. How about you go play in traffic?
@nomad3
If the bank reports you, the IRS knows about your existence and you may get some strongly worded letters from them.
The bank can’t close your account, and the IRS can’t collect on any fines or penalties incurred while you were a Canadian citizen. There is case-law in Canada on this already; a foreign government can’t use our legal system to collect.
Provided you never set foot in the US again, I would say you could go on with life. That’s what I intend to do, whether I get reported or not.
@the animal, I ask that the moderator remove you because you are so full of it I don’t know where to begin. Take your IRS and Fatca interpretations which are spurious and scaremongering and shove it where the sun don’t shine. We knew there would be plants here to start spreading misinformation and lo and behold here you are.
Glad to insult an IRS stooge like you animal. People will do themselves a big disservice to debate with him and exchange ideas with him. Moderator please re-read this persons posts and you can plainly see he/she is a FATCA natic
Actually to tell you the truth, I’ve been on this forum longer than you have, practically almost from the start. Everything including the fact that Canada has thrown us under the bus has come to happen. You on the other hand have stooped to name-calling and idiocy. Who’s to say who should be removed? I think the chickens have come home to roost in YOUR corner.
@ChearsBigEars, I agree with you. Gold is money. But Animal may also express his opinion. Agree to disagree and lets get back to discussing the IGA.
In any case, I think also that it’s good to put a portion of one’s wealth outside the banking system as means of insurance against total economic collapse. It would also help those who may be implicated in this new IGA. I say we need to get a part of our wealth into tangible assets including precious metals.
Heck, I would even stock up on food. That can’t hurt.
It seems the IGA is all about reporting requirements for banks, not individuals. Just because a bank is exempted from reporting on certain accounts, doesn’t mean that the U.S. Person who owns the account is exempt from filing FBARs on it. Anyone who thinks that the “exemption” for RRSPs and TFSAs is a great thing should reconsider. It is just in there to create an illusion that the Americans made a generous concession. Canadian financial institutions already report all information about your registered accounts directly to the CRA, and the CRA could pass that info on to the IRS tomorrow, if the CRA had a valid request from the IRS.
“I’ve been on this forum longer than you have, practically almost from the start. Everything including the fact that Canada has thrown us under the bus has come to happen.”
That’s exactly what worries me. I can tell by your posts what you are and I think others who have just read dozens of what I would call “enforcer” style comments can see right through you.
Your comments that money in the bank at 1% interest is better than gold which the Jews hoarded rather than cash and which the Nazis stole, obviously seeing great value, is inexcusable. You are here to mislead in my opinion,
@Cerium398
Thanks.
Excuse me, but are you an idiot? I don’t plan to give the IRS anything to go on – (Why the hell would I be looking for someplace where my wife could bank that had assets UNDER $175M)…and I wish that more people would tell the IRS to FUCK OFF rather than comply. So get that through your head. Evidently YOU don’t read well and judging from your gold comments, I take you as nothing more than an gold industry shill trying to drum up more business for yourself. SO WHY DON’T YOU TAKE A FLYING LEAP!?
@petros
“Heck, I would even stock up on food. That can’t hurt.”
Unfortunately you can’t do a CLN application by mail (you could in the 1970s). Now you have to sign the forms in the presence of a consular official at a consulate or embassy. One of the Brockers wrote Dept of State Legal Affairs and they confirmed this.
Reciprocity. The Government of the United States acknowledges the need to achieve equivalent levels of reciprocal automatic information exchange with Canada. The Government of the United States is committed to further improve transparency and enhance the exchange relationship with Canada by pursuing the adoption of regulations and advocating and supporting relevant legislation to achieve such equivalent levels of reciprocal automatic information exchange.
Canada should make sure that any enabling legislation contains a clause stating that it goes into effect after the US passes “legislation to achieve such equivalent levels of reciprocal automatic information exchange.”
It seems to me that there must be a connection between the IGA and the Keystone pipeline. The timing is just too convenient. We heard nothing for many months about the IGA, and then just days after the Keystone announcement, we get the IGA. Our weak-kneed government has sold our sovereignty, burdened our banks with excessive, expensive reporting requirements, and abandoned the human right of non-discrimination on the basis of national origin. All for a pipeline…
Another wrinkle that occurred to me, Canadians in the US who never declared themselves non-residents for tax purposes. Canada, if reciprocity happens and let’s be real on just how well the USG is on honoring their side of a deal, are soon to be hunted commodities too, yes?
Atticus, loyalty. Your family and dear friends are the only ones worthy. Govts are just parasites we put up with because … well … they own us and we have no choice anymore. No more frontiers to wander off to. We were all born about hundred or so years too late to know what freedom really is.
@nomad3
Precisely; I have no real ties to the US except for the fact that I was born there.
“The banks; unless you are suggesting that now the CRA will include on your T1 a section where I must self-certify if I am an American. But that is not what is happening here! The onus is on the Banks to identify and report.”
There already is a section where one indicates indicia of whether you are a citizen or not. What makes you think they won’t hand over the tax information (Canadian) of all those who indicate that they aren’t citizens of Canada? And don’t put it past the banks to forward the information of everyone who is “recalcitrant” in giving information as to their US person-hood. Once you’re flagged, US citizen/Canadian dual or not, you are going to be on the US radar because the CRA doesn’t have the manpower to look into whether or not it is a legitimate flag or not. They’ll just bundle up the info and send it packing to the IRS.
I don’t trust the United States, and as of today, I don’t trust my own country which I was born in (raised by two Canadians). My dog in this fight is my wife who is struggling to free the shackles of her former country of “allegiance”.
I became a citizen of Canada in 40 years ago, but I’ve been living here for 50 years. I’m almost 80 now. I served 3 years active duty at the tail end of the Korean war and 5 years in the reserves in the US Army.
I haven’t filed since I moved to Canada, and I don’t intend to now. I was told by the US Consulate that if I became a Citizen of Canada, I would loose my US citizenship. It was with that understanding that I swore my alligiance to the Queen.
I have to believe that Canadian Charter will protect me and my little family and the little pension that we live on.
It does not break my heart that I may have to give up my US citizenship — I would do it in a heartbeat; it breaks my heart that the US government has seen fit to be so fucking stupid as to make it impossible for me to do so without admitting to some cockamami crime.
But also what breaks my heart even more is the fact that the current government of my adopted country is willing to out me instead of standing up for me.
I wait for the Charter fight and I will support it every way I can.
So it goes…
@ the animal…… Gold is money NOT a commodity. A commodity is consumed. Gold is not consumed and it never deteriorates.
http://contrarianinvestorsjournal.com/?p=12#
http://www.mining.com/hey-socgen-gold-is-currency-not-a-commodity-27527/
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/content/en/mineweb-gold-analysis?oid=159828&sn=Detail&pid=102055
@Cerium398 or anyone
I think my question is this; even if your bank does report you, what will actually happen to you? I have no reason to ever go to the US again. Could I just go on with my life?
Wrong. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity
1
: an economic good: as
a : a product of agriculture or mining
b : an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment
c : a mass-produced unspecialized product
2
a : something useful or valued ; also : thing, entity
b : convenience, advantage
3
obsolete : quantity, lot
4
: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (as brand name) other than price
5
: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market
See commodity defined for English-language learners »
See commodity defined for kids »
I’ll take my definition from Webster’s Dictionary, a fine tome that has been used for ages.
Gold may never deteriorate however, it is subject to valuation and that valuation can range from worthless to priceless based on the “market”.
I trust that the industry tomes that you have cited are paid shills for industry viewpoint.
@the animal
get lost. you are a plant. its SOOOO obvious. You do not know what you are talking about. Your comments on gold prove this. May I be the first to tell you to Fuck Off and Die?
@The_Animal
“There already is a section where one indicates indicia of whether you are a citizen or not. What makes you think they won’t hand over the tax information (Canadian) of all those who indicate that they aren’t citizens of Canada?”
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/5006-r/README.html
Are you referring to the bottom of the first page of the T1 General? That section is only for Elections Canada and if you want to be on the National Register of Electors. Unless the CRA changes the T1 General to say “Are you an American citizen?”, my read is the onus is on the banks to determine who is or is not a US Person.
The onus will be on the banks to determine who is or is not a US Person. And I agree with you, I don’t trust the banks. And if you go to your local branch and ask any of the front-line staff about this, you get blank stares. They have no bloody idea about FATCA. All those guys in your branch are there to do is sell product. That’s it.
I sympathize with the problems facing your wife.
…also, where your industry tomes are erroneous is that there is artificial value attached. Gold is ONLY A CURRENCY if there is value attached to it. Otherwise it is just a shiny rock.
gold worthless….Every currency in the world has eventually ended up at ZERO value. Every ounce of gold ever mined is still with us, something I wish I can’t say about you and your total misinformation
Stooping to insults, Cheers… How very erudite of you. I’ll return the favor. How about you go play in traffic?
@nomad3
If the bank reports you, the IRS knows about your existence and you may get some strongly worded letters from them.
The bank can’t close your account, and the IRS can’t collect on any fines or penalties incurred while you were a Canadian citizen. There is case-law in Canada on this already; a foreign government can’t use our legal system to collect.
Provided you never set foot in the US again, I would say you could go on with life. That’s what I intend to do, whether I get reported or not.
@the animal, I ask that the moderator remove you because you are so full of it I don’t know where to begin. Take your IRS and Fatca interpretations which are spurious and scaremongering and shove it where the sun don’t shine. We knew there would be plants here to start spreading misinformation and lo and behold here you are.
Glad to insult an IRS stooge like you animal. People will do themselves a big disservice to debate with him and exchange ideas with him. Moderator please re-read this persons posts and you can plainly see he/she is a FATCA natic
Actually to tell you the truth, I’ve been on this forum longer than you have, practically almost from the start. Everything including the fact that Canada has thrown us under the bus has come to happen. You on the other hand have stooped to name-calling and idiocy. Who’s to say who should be removed? I think the chickens have come home to roost in YOUR corner.
@ChearsBigEars, I agree with you. Gold is money. But Animal may also express his opinion. Agree to disagree and lets get back to discussing the IGA.
In any case, I think also that it’s good to put a portion of one’s wealth outside the banking system as means of insurance against total economic collapse. It would also help those who may be implicated in this new IGA. I say we need to get a part of our wealth into tangible assets including precious metals.
Heck, I would even stock up on food. That can’t hurt.
It seems the IGA is all about reporting requirements for banks, not individuals. Just because a bank is exempted from reporting on certain accounts, doesn’t mean that the U.S. Person who owns the account is exempt from filing FBARs on it. Anyone who thinks that the “exemption” for RRSPs and TFSAs is a great thing should reconsider. It is just in there to create an illusion that the Americans made a generous concession. Canadian financial institutions already report all information about your registered accounts directly to the CRA, and the CRA could pass that info on to the IRS tomorrow, if the CRA had a valid request from the IRS.
“I’ve been on this forum longer than you have, practically almost from the start. Everything including the fact that Canada has thrown us under the bus has come to happen.”
That’s exactly what worries me. I can tell by your posts what you are and I think others who have just read dozens of what I would call “enforcer” style comments can see right through you.
Your comments that money in the bank at 1% interest is better than gold which the Jews hoarded rather than cash and which the Nazis stole, obviously seeing great value, is inexcusable. You are here to mislead in my opinion,
@Cerium398
Thanks.
Excuse me, but are you an idiot? I don’t plan to give the IRS anything to go on – (Why the hell would I be looking for someplace where my wife could bank that had assets UNDER $175M)…and I wish that more people would tell the IRS to FUCK OFF rather than comply. So get that through your head. Evidently YOU don’t read well and judging from your gold comments, I take you as nothing more than an gold industry shill trying to drum up more business for yourself. SO WHY DON’T YOU TAKE A FLYING LEAP!?
@petros
“Heck, I would even stock up on food. That can’t hurt.”
Why not, Harper is:
http://metronews.ca/news/kitchener/522570/pm-harper-surprises-diners-at-kitchener-restaurant/
@ Always Something,
Unfortunately you can’t do a CLN application by mail (you could in the 1970s). Now you have to sign the forms in the presence of a consular official at a consulate or embassy. One of the Brockers wrote Dept of State Legal Affairs and they confirmed this.
Links to the forms (page 7), and links to the Dept of State manuals regarding this (page 4), in the Consulate Report Directory
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Consulate-Report-Directory-2013.01.25.pdf
Canada should make sure that any enabling legislation contains a clause stating that it goes into effect after the US passes “legislation to achieve such equivalent levels of reciprocal automatic information exchange.”
It seems to me that there must be a connection between the IGA and the Keystone pipeline. The timing is just too convenient. We heard nothing for many months about the IGA, and then just days after the Keystone announcement, we get the IGA. Our weak-kneed government has sold our sovereignty, burdened our banks with excessive, expensive reporting requirements, and abandoned the human right of non-discrimination on the basis of national origin. All for a pipeline…