397 thoughts on “The Canada United States FATCA Intergovernmental Agreement”
Let’s all take a deep breath and relax a minute. This may not be such bad news. At first glance, I think I’m heartened by what I read, but the devil will be in the details. I’m really intrigued by this “self certified” relinquishment though. I’ll need to have that done by the time I go to sell my principal residence.
When I saw the announcement was true, I started to cry – and I am no longer a US citizen – I feel betrayed as a Canadian citizen. I am no fan of the current federal government, but a small part of me had still thought that there was still a offchance that Flaherty himself would have enough integrity to delay that last step into the abyss – and step over the cliff to facilitate the active betrayal of his fellow Canadians, citizens, taxpayers and assetholders alike. I did not think that he would be able to live with the very public conflict between the words in his letter to the media in 2011 against FATCA, and his very public FATCA capitulation now.
Particularly bitter given the momentum already building against FATCA inside the US. I hope it severs the Conservatives from federal power – as forcible US taxable status is no respecter of Canadian political party affiliation just as it is no respecter of our Canadian citizenship, laws and Canadian taxpayer and accountholder status. There will be many Conservatives who will now be forced to either live with the surrender of their rights as Canadians, or to renounce – just like the rest of us who have.
Then I reminded myself that we cannot lose heart. As fellows here remind us, it is not a sprint, it is a marathon. No Canadian citizen or resident should be resigned to suffer this insult.
This fight is NOT over – we know what US CBT truly entails – even without FATCA. The extraterritorial ownership and control of individuals in Canada and around the world by the US, grievous injury to our Canadian Charter and Constitutional rights and an insufferable insult to Canadian autonomy and sovereignty.
From a data protection point of view – this is the US NSA imposed on our Canadian legal local assets – to be exported to the US, and made subject to the Homeland Security and Patriot Act. We are made another US state at the hands of the Harper government and the perfidy of the Canadian banksters and their investment arm kin.
Those who cannot renounce/relinquish need us who have; our children, those deemed incompetent, those with too much complexity and risk to submit 5 years back filed, those who cannot physically or financially manage to travel to the embassy/consulates in order to appear before a US consular official are still trapped by the US, they need our help.
Boiled frogs?
Remember, some registered Canadian accounts are still reportable ‘taxable foreign trusts’, BSA FBAR still exists, still FATCA form 8938 for individuals, still Obamacare surtax, still US tax on sale of our Canadian homes over a certain capital gains amount, still problems with joint accounts with a US person, problems with estates, non-US spouses, Power of Attorney for advance planning, PFICs, etc.
FATCA can still be tweaked by US caprice without Canadian consultation or consent. Taxation and other consequences can still follow ‘information’ – now the US nose is inside the Canadian tent.
Those of us who have not renounced/relinquished must stay committed in this fight. We are not exempt from data theft and data leaks by the US – we are compromised too. The CRA is not without error. Some Canadian-only data is inevitably going to be sent by accident – with no notice or recourse. We will have US person joint accountholders, or POA holders, or business partners. It must be all for one and one for all.
@Arrow and Others: I have not been in touch with Peter Hogg, but I sent this to Joe Arvay. He said: Lynn…you need to start raising a war chest for any litigation …..can you do that?
I asked him: Tell me what we will need to do. What is the plan? What is the schedule? How much money do we need? What will our position be? One person asked if he can contribute after a case is won. Is there any possibility of help from CCLA or others?
I will let you know when I receive answers.
Date of tax expatriation. For purposes of U.S. tax rules, the date of your expatriation or termination of residency is the later of the dates on which you perform the following actions.
You notify either the Department of State or the Department of Homeland Security (whichever is appropriate) of your expatriating act or termination of residency.
badger, yeah, I feel fucked coming and going. I hate the United States with a white hot fierceness some days for basically treating me and my child like we are chattel. But I am not too warm fuzzy about Canada today either.
em, at least your husband is free. It looks like the reporting is only going forward from July and it seems to read that this is depending on Canada receiving data from the US.
George3rd, yeah, I know. They would all sign. Canada is a vassal in most things USG and they know it.
PierreD, oh, I am breathing. What’s coming out with the breath though is a bit blue for me to repeat verbatim.
Blaze
Have you talked to the Civil Liberty Association?
It was a confidential pledge to lawyer.
The provision on recalcitrant account is better than UK.
I will sit down and read it. However, I am looking forward to expert interpretation by people like Alison Christians.
Hi Blaze,
I am ready and willing to donate money to pay for a lawsuit if that is what needs to be done. Keep us informed on what needs to take place with this.
Cheers,
Rocky
> The provision on recalcitrant account is better than UK.
Well, it seems the UK should inherit that now, as I think all IGAs have the clause that said that if another country gets a better deal, they get it too.
Not sure if the provision on recalcitrant account helps much. I think it was in the French IGA as well, and that doesn’t prevent some banks from closing USPs accounts as a business decision, even before the reporting takes effect. I guess the French constitution is not as strong as the Canadian Charter of Rights.
Re: Arvay, Canada government destroys the rights of citizens and there is only one inevitable result: lawyers will get rich.
It is time for MASS RENUNCIATIONS. Its the only thing that will get the US to stop fucking with the lives of expats.
Nothing short of national embarrassment will bring about the abolishment of CBT — full stop.
@Goerge3rd for the 5th time what? I know the rules, I renounced, paid my expatriation tax, and have my CLN in hand thank you.
YogaGirl, yes, same first reactions here, through tears.
Em, congrats to your husband. Funny confluence of events eh?
Blaze, many thanks. Committed to give towards the fund what I can spare.
Arrow, agreed. Good point. They can pretend – as they are obviously trying to do through obfuscation, that ‘privacy’ has only to do with the information going from the financial institutions to the CRA and then to the IRS (AND let’s not forget – the non-financial (ex. certain types life insurance, private pension plans, etc.).
So, how can they state that privacy is not an issue (just what exactly did the Privacy Commissioner and the Justice Department say to the Harper government?).
And, what is/was the outcome (concluded yet?) of the study cited below, by Professor Arthur Cockfield of Queens University commissioned by the Privacy Commissioner? See: http://www.priv.gc.ca/resource/cp/2013-2014/cp_bg_e.asp
“Organization: Queen’s University, Faculty of Law
Location: Ontario
Funding Amount: $10,000
Project Title: The Privacy Implications of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)
Project Leader: Arthur Cockfield
Project Description: The project will review the privacy implications of the U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) in light of Canada’s Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act. Specifically, the project will review implications on Canadian privacy rights and interests of any new agreement negotiated between Canada and the United States to implement FATCA. The project will also examine the interplay of FATCA with other Canadian laws that protect taxpayer privacy such as the Income Tax Act, the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). Finally, the project will review how Canadian banks are trying to comply with all relevant laws, and whether these banks are adopting new information technology systems to help them identify, sort, and transfer financial information to U.S. tax authorities.”
Note that not only are Canadian privacy rights part of that study as well as “other Canadian laws that protect taxpayer privacy such as the Income Tax Act, the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).”.
How/who can get a copy? Or will it require a Freedom of Information request from Canadian citiezns to get the results of a Canadian made study from the Canadian Privacy Commissioner on Canadian privacy and other rights and issues.
Perhaps the “Information Sessions” can be turned into “How to Renounce / Relinquish Sessions.”
@Samuel Adams – the U.S. will not stop until it extracts all the wealth it can from exit taxes, fines and penalties.
The countries of the world should have all refused to sign until the US congress passed whatever was needed to make FATCA fully reciprocal.
@Samuel Adams, I agree.
I already expatriated, but I would attend a mass swearing of fealty to Canada, and abjuration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjuration of allegiance to the US even if the latter is now redundant for me. I don’t have my cancelled blue US passport to burn en masse (and I guess I might need it for proof that I am no longer a US serf, but we could make larger than life mockups to burn – might make a nice echo of US draft card burnings?
@WhatAmi “The countries of the world should have all refused to sign until the US congress passed whatever was needed to make FATCA fully reciprocal.”
Yes lets make everyone miserable.
@Stateless Man
My guess is that most expats are underneath the exit tax threshold.
PS. I like your nom de plum. Government is evil by nature and best to avoid as much as possible, but being stateless takes real balls. Kudos to you.
@Samuel Adams, doubtless they are already trying to figure out how to slow renunciations down as much as possible in the near future and to make them too difficult to attempt in the far future. Being American off the plantation is going to be only for the truly wealthy sooner or later.
Stateless Man, too true.
@Samuel Adams – I agree on the exit tax, I have advised many young people to toss their U.S. citizenship before they become wealthy and become subject to the tax.
Thank you, I’ve done all the traveling I want to do so it’s not really that much of a hardship, taking a oath of citizenship seems far more scary to me.
Congratulations to your husband and you, Em! It’s good to hear that except for the long waiting time at the consulate, it went smoothly and that they’re providing an interim letter. What a day — get rid of one government, but now there’s another to fight. Too bad this lousy IGA news came on such a special day. But it is a special day for you and him despite that – so congratulations!
@YogaGirl
Yeah, I’m kind of feeling the same way too. Not feeling like I have any friends in the world right now.
@Petros
Petros asked why the IRS would still want the info on Canadian citizens ( duals and green carders for example) since the CRA will not collect.
Well, if those folks have real estate or investments in the US, IRS can collect. Snowbirders beware, your Florida condo could be seized.
@ pacific777
Thank you. It is my husband who will be free, after the CLN comes, after the final forms are filed. I never will be. I will have to manage, somehow, in the shadows of uncertainty … forever. Now I also have to live with this betrayal by what I thought was my government but I guess it is a government by the banks and for the banks and it has given its paramount allegiance to the USA. Meanwhile, at least for today, the sun is shining.
Let’s all take a deep breath and relax a minute. This may not be such bad news. At first glance, I think I’m heartened by what I read, but the devil will be in the details. I’m really intrigued by this “self certified” relinquishment though. I’ll need to have that done by the time I go to sell my principal residence.
When I saw the announcement was true, I started to cry – and I am no longer a US citizen – I feel betrayed as a Canadian citizen. I am no fan of the current federal government, but a small part of me had still thought that there was still a offchance that Flaherty himself would have enough integrity to delay that last step into the abyss – and step over the cliff to facilitate the active betrayal of his fellow Canadians, citizens, taxpayers and assetholders alike. I did not think that he would be able to live with the very public conflict between the words in his letter to the media in 2011 against FATCA, and his very public FATCA capitulation now.
Particularly bitter given the momentum already building against FATCA inside the US. I hope it severs the Conservatives from federal power – as forcible US taxable status is no respecter of Canadian political party affiliation just as it is no respecter of our Canadian citizenship, laws and Canadian taxpayer and accountholder status. There will be many Conservatives who will now be forced to either live with the surrender of their rights as Canadians, or to renounce – just like the rest of us who have.
Then I reminded myself that we cannot lose heart. As fellows here remind us, it is not a sprint, it is a marathon. No Canadian citizen or resident should be resigned to suffer this insult.
This fight is NOT over – we know what US CBT truly entails – even without FATCA. The extraterritorial ownership and control of individuals in Canada and around the world by the US, grievous injury to our Canadian Charter and Constitutional rights and an insufferable insult to Canadian autonomy and sovereignty.
From a data protection point of view – this is the US NSA imposed on our Canadian legal local assets – to be exported to the US, and made subject to the Homeland Security and Patriot Act. We are made another US state at the hands of the Harper government and the perfidy of the Canadian banksters and their investment arm kin.
Those who cannot renounce/relinquish need us who have; our children, those deemed incompetent, those with too much complexity and risk to submit 5 years back filed, those who cannot physically or financially manage to travel to the embassy/consulates in order to appear before a US consular official are still trapped by the US, they need our help.
Boiled frogs?
Remember, some registered Canadian accounts are still reportable ‘taxable foreign trusts’, BSA FBAR still exists, still FATCA form 8938 for individuals, still Obamacare surtax, still US tax on sale of our Canadian homes over a certain capital gains amount, still problems with joint accounts with a US person, problems with estates, non-US spouses, Power of Attorney for advance planning, PFICs, etc.
FATCA can still be tweaked by US caprice without Canadian consultation or consent. Taxation and other consequences can still follow ‘information’ – now the US nose is inside the Canadian tent.
Those of us who have not renounced/relinquished must stay committed in this fight. We are not exempt from data theft and data leaks by the US – we are compromised too. The CRA is not without error. Some Canadian-only data is inevitably going to be sent by accident – with no notice or recourse. We will have US person joint accountholders, or POA holders, or business partners. It must be all for one and one for all.
@Arrow and Others: I have not been in touch with Peter Hogg, but I sent this to Joe Arvay. He said: Lynn…you need to start raising a war chest for any litigation …..can you do that?
I asked him: Tell me what we will need to do. What is the plan? What is the schedule? How much money do we need? What will our position be? One person asked if he can contribute after a case is won. Is there any possibility of help from CCLA or others?
I will let you know when I receive answers.
Date of tax expatriation. For purposes of U.S. tax rules, the date of your expatriation or termination of residency is the later of the dates on which you perform the following actions.
You notify either the Department of State or the Department of Homeland Security (whichever is appropriate) of your expatriating act or termination of residency.
You file Form 8854 in accordance with the form instructions.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p519/ch04.html#en_US_2013_publink1000222390
For tax purposes the CLN is not enough before 1995 that is all you need between 1995 & 2004 you may need more.
badger, yeah, I feel fucked coming and going. I hate the United States with a white hot fierceness some days for basically treating me and my child like we are chattel. But I am not too warm fuzzy about Canada today either.
em, at least your husband is free. It looks like the reporting is only going forward from July and it seems to read that this is depending on Canada receiving data from the US.
George3rd, yeah, I know. They would all sign. Canada is a vassal in most things USG and they know it.
PierreD, oh, I am breathing. What’s coming out with the breath though is a bit blue for me to repeat verbatim.
Blaze
Have you talked to the Civil Liberty Association?
It was a confidential pledge to lawyer.
The provision on recalcitrant account is better than UK.
I will sit down and read it. However, I am looking forward to expert interpretation by people like Alison Christians.
Hi Blaze,
I am ready and willing to donate money to pay for a lawsuit if that is what needs to be done. Keep us informed on what needs to take place with this.
Cheers,
Rocky
> The provision on recalcitrant account is better than UK.
Well, it seems the UK should inherit that now, as I think all IGAs have the clause that said that if another country gets a better deal, they get it too.
Not sure if the provision on recalcitrant account helps much. I think it was in the French IGA as well, and that doesn’t prevent some banks from closing USPs accounts as a business decision, even before the reporting takes effect. I guess the French constitution is not as strong as the Canadian Charter of Rights.
Re: Arvay, Canada government destroys the rights of citizens and there is only one inevitable result: lawyers will get rich.
It is time for MASS RENUNCIATIONS. Its the only thing that will get the US to stop fucking with the lives of expats.
Nothing short of national embarrassment will bring about the abolishment of CBT — full stop.
@Goerge3rd for the 5th time what? I know the rules, I renounced, paid my expatriation tax, and have my CLN in hand thank you.
YogaGirl, yes, same first reactions here, through tears.
Em, congrats to your husband. Funny confluence of events eh?
Blaze, many thanks. Committed to give towards the fund what I can spare.
Arrow, agreed. Good point. They can pretend – as they are obviously trying to do through obfuscation, that ‘privacy’ has only to do with the information going from the financial institutions to the CRA and then to the IRS (AND let’s not forget – the non-financial (ex. certain types life insurance, private pension plans, etc.).
So, how can they state that privacy is not an issue (just what exactly did the Privacy Commissioner and the Justice Department say to the Harper government?).
And, what is/was the outcome (concluded yet?) of the study cited below, by Professor Arthur Cockfield of Queens University commissioned by the Privacy Commissioner? See: http://www.priv.gc.ca/resource/cp/2013-2014/cp_bg_e.asp
“Organization: Queen’s University, Faculty of Law
Location: Ontario
Funding Amount: $10,000
Project Title: The Privacy Implications of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)
Project Leader: Arthur Cockfield
Project Description: The project will review the privacy implications of the U.S. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) in light of Canada’s Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act. Specifically, the project will review implications on Canadian privacy rights and interests of any new agreement negotiated between Canada and the United States to implement FATCA. The project will also examine the interplay of FATCA with other Canadian laws that protect taxpayer privacy such as the Income Tax Act, the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). Finally, the project will review how Canadian banks are trying to comply with all relevant laws, and whether these banks are adopting new information technology systems to help them identify, sort, and transfer financial information to U.S. tax authorities.”
Note that not only are Canadian privacy rights part of that study as well as “other Canadian laws that protect taxpayer privacy such as the Income Tax Act, the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).”.
How/who can get a copy? Or will it require a Freedom of Information request from Canadian citiezns to get the results of a Canadian made study from the Canadian Privacy Commissioner on Canadian privacy and other rights and issues.
Perhaps the “Information Sessions” can be turned into “How to Renounce / Relinquish Sessions.”
@Samuel Adams – the U.S. will not stop until it extracts all the wealth it can from exit taxes, fines and penalties.
The countries of the world should have all refused to sign until the US congress passed whatever was needed to make FATCA fully reciprocal.
@Samuel Adams, I agree.
I already expatriated, but I would attend a mass swearing of fealty to Canada, and abjuration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abjuration of allegiance to the US even if the latter is now redundant for me. I don’t have my cancelled blue US passport to burn en masse (and I guess I might need it for proof that I am no longer a US serf, but we could make larger than life mockups to burn – might make a nice echo of US draft card burnings?
@WhatAmi “The countries of the world should have all refused to sign until the US congress passed whatever was needed to make FATCA fully reciprocal.”
Yes lets make everyone miserable.
@Stateless Man
My guess is that most expats are underneath the exit tax threshold.
PS. I like your nom de plum. Government is evil by nature and best to avoid as much as possible, but being stateless takes real balls. Kudos to you.
@Samuel Adams, doubtless they are already trying to figure out how to slow renunciations down as much as possible in the near future and to make them too difficult to attempt in the far future. Being American off the plantation is going to be only for the truly wealthy sooner or later.
Stateless Man, too true.
@Samuel Adams – I agree on the exit tax, I have advised many young people to toss their U.S. citizenship before they become wealthy and become subject to the tax.
Thank you, I’ve done all the traveling I want to do so it’s not really that much of a hardship, taking a oath of citizenship seems far more scary to me.
Congratulations to your husband and you, Em! It’s good to hear that except for the long waiting time at the consulate, it went smoothly and that they’re providing an interim letter. What a day — get rid of one government, but now there’s another to fight. Too bad this lousy IGA news came on such a special day. But it is a special day for you and him despite that – so congratulations!
@YogaGirl
Yeah, I’m kind of feeling the same way too. Not feeling like I have any friends in the world right now.
@Petros
Petros asked why the IRS would still want the info on Canadian citizens ( duals and green carders for example) since the CRA will not collect.
Well, if those folks have real estate or investments in the US, IRS can collect. Snowbirders beware, your Florida condo could be seized.
@ pacific777
Thank you. It is my husband who will be free, after the CLN comes, after the final forms are filed. I never will be. I will have to manage, somehow, in the shadows of uncertainty … forever. Now I also have to live with this betrayal by what I thought was my government but I guess it is a government by the banks and for the banks and it has given its paramount allegiance to the USA. Meanwhile, at least for today, the sun is shining.