397 thoughts on “The Canada United States FATCA Intergovernmental Agreement”
@Goerge3rd you certify that the beneficial owner is not a U.S. person.
@George right that’s the instruction for me, not sure about the bank or withholding agent.
Suspension of Rules Relating to Recalcitrant Accounts
.
The United States
shall
not
require a Reporting
Canadian Financial Institution
to withhold tax under section 1471 or 1472 of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code with respect to an account held by a recalcitrant account holder (as defined in section 1471
(d)(6)of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code), or to close such account, if the U.S.Competent Authority receives the information set forthin sub paragraph 2(a) of
Article 2 of this Agreement, subject to the provisions of Article 3
of this Agreement, with respect to such account
I may have to request a 34 year old SSN threw that out with green card
The language in the Canada IGA on relinquishment I think is very important. A negotiator fought for it for a reason. May I suggest that you Brockers work on getting clarification on why that occurred with your MPs.
Many of you guys in fact relinquished. We now know and have documents that a CLN is not required.
But again if you relinquished you must have no indicative actions that you claim to be a US Citizen.
The good news is that is a favorable provision that now must be incorporated in other IGA agreements.
Any thoughts pro and con?
The UK IGA;
(3) a copy of the account holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality
of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
(a) the reason the account holder does not have such a
certificate despite renouncing U.S. citizenship; or
The Canada IGA;
(a) The reason the Account Holder does not have such a certificate despite relinquishing U.S. citizenship; or
I don’t think this gets them around the Charter issues in any way. Notice that they say a lot about privacy issues — and absolutely nothing about the Charter. Yet the detailed due diligence clauses in the various annexes are exclusively designed to seek out “US Personhood” status. And if US Personhood is established, or even suspected, discriminatory practices are called for. A US person in Canada, who is also a Canadian citizen, is a second-class citizen.
I think it’s time to ask Peter Hogg whether or not this IGA would withstand a Charter challenge — and I’m betting he will say no. Given that the IGA requires legislation, it’s still premature to launch a class action suit — but it looks like that day is getting closer.
It’s no accident that the word Charter appears nowhere in any of the verbiage.
@Stateless, that is pulled from the instructions for the “requestor” which is the financial institution. You can google it and find the two sets of instructions.
@Petros
Because the press has to get its facts straight. I would have loved to believe that I can now buy TFSA’s!
**“This is strictly a tax information-sharing agreement. This agreement will not impose any U.S. taxes or penalties on U.S. citizens or U.S. residents holding accounts in Canada. The CRA does not collect the U.S. tax liability of a Canadian citizen if the individual was a Canadian citizen at the time the liability arose. This includes dual Canada-U.S. citizens. That will not change under this agreement.”
– Kerry-Lynne D. Findlay, Minister of National Revenue**
Then what is the purpose of handing over all this information then? Can we all say… huge database that will not be secured from anyone that wants access & will be available every time someone wants to get every spec of data of a person. But then I could be parnoid for nothing… From what I have read… the IRS has the worst track record in keeping their database info secure. Once someone is sucked into this database.. correctly or incorrectly.. they will never be able to get out. Remember when u cross customs… any… cause I got a feeling that all that info will be out there for all to see… as they data mine for something to use against u
4.
Notwithstanding paragraph 3 of this Article, with respect to each Reportable Account that
is
maintained by a Reporting Financial Institution as of June 30,
2014
and subject to paragraph 4 of Article 6
of this Agreement, the Parties are not required to obtain and
include in the exchanged information the Canadian
TIN or the U.S. TIN, as applicable, of
any relevant person if such taxpayer identifying number is
not in the records of the Reporting Financial Institution.
In such a case, the Parties shall obtain and include in the
exchanged information the date of birth of the relevant person, if the Reporting Financial
Institution has such date of birth in its records”
I have real pain when I copy info from PDF I have to delete balnak spots
Arrow:
There is going to be draft implementation legislative language put up in the coming days for comment.
@George cool thanks, that’s a relief, still hate signing U.S. tax forms.
@ARROW
Place of birth is the discriminatory language.
Why? It treats Canadian Citizens born in the USA with clinging US Citizenship differently than Canadian Citizens born in Toronto with clinging US Citizenship.
Just got some new video: this is a reenactment of one of the meetings in which Jim Flaherty, played by John Gandolfini, insists on his way and walks out of the meeting with the US representatives still sitting out at the table. Eventually, the Johnny Sacks crew allowed Flaherty to keep his TFSA, RDSP, RESPs.
I ask the question again is perjury on a W8ben is extraditable from Canada. This is especially true when you are person who threw out a green card 33 years ago and holds no US assets.
George read page 21 exactly the same as UK FATCA you need a CLN or why you do not have one and self declaration you are not a US person for tax purposes.
The exempted accounts is a plus.
The relinquishment clause? Does that mean that if you relinquish(ed) upon attaining citizenship in Canada, banks have to accept that even if you don’t have a CLN in hand yet or ever? That needs clarifying.
Can’t hand over info on Canadian citizens? How does that impact joint accounts when the earned income is that of the Canadian and not the USP? I still don’t know how the USG gets to claim that the USP “earned” that income in the first place when both the CRA and the IRS know that I, for one, don’t earn squat.
I am still a bit worried about my child though. It’s years to go before she can renounce and it still seems disingenuous to me that anyone in the Canadian govt can say with a straight face that a child raised in Canadian is American or that the USG demanding that they file tax forms is anything other than extortion.
But, hey, we knew this was coming. So, launch a charter suit? Keep plugging away on our exit strategies? We shouldn’t kid ourselves. Our govt is ready to go on a cash grab spree in the US and it will happen whether it’s Harper, JT or Mulcair. Don’t kid yourselves. They have all been drinking the kool-aid.
Last thing! Anyone! Did I read correctly that this is a going forward agreement only? They are only sharing info going forward from this coming July and not going backward, right?
Are financial institutions owned by provincial governments still excluded? Quebec has an agency that offers accounts to Quebec residents which hold various kinds of the province’s bonds and other debt instruments in them. Other provinces may have similar.
There is also the question of certificated federal and provincial bonds, where the only record of the bond is wth the government’s treasury or finance ministry.
@Goerge3rd
Not the same, Canada has RELINQUISH while UK has RENOUNCE, Page 22. 😉
Major difference and its in their for a reason.
@YogaGirl, that key word was negotiated by Canada for a reason. Why?
Form W8Ben is held by the requestor.
It would have been impossible to state why you did not have a CLN despite renouncing US citizenship.
While its very easy to state why you do not have a CLN despite relinquishing US Citizenship.
Many people will not have a CLN despite relinquishing because it is not a requirement in order to relinquish!!!
But do not get me wrong, getting a CLN these days is probably a good idea because the goal posts will be moving.
@ brockers….well this IGA is no surprise really…….all I can say is
BRING ON the class action suits re: Charter of Rights and National Origin Discrimination
BRING ON the detailed analysis and challenge that u guyz can FINALLY DO with a concrete IGA
BRING ONhuge increase in RELINQUISHMENTS and RENUNCIATIONS that are consequence.
THINK AHEAD few years when USA has virtually no overseas nationals to softsell products
UK USPs already thrown under the bus particularly 250K USPs in London
So sad that Canadian Govt didnt THINK b4 signing up to this garbage
all one needs to know is in E Gibbons’ 19th C “decline and fall of [US] Empire”….
all UK switchedon USPs are with u heart and mind and spirit and culture.
Canada flag has pride of place on my mantelpiece!!
BROCKERS ROCK!!
Annex II section III.B.2 states that Credit unions are “Non-Reporting Canadian Financial Institutions that shall be treated as deemed-compliant FFIs”
This is too much to take in right now. I wasn’t expecting this until the budget announcement. We just got back minutes ago from my husband’s relinquishment. It was not a fun time (we drove through a ground blizzard to get there and it was bitter cold in the big city). At the consulate my husband spent 1.5 hours going through security and waiting on an uncomfortable chair. He only spent 3 minutes at 3 different bullet proof glass windows to get the deed done however. He was 1 of 10 people there at that time who were either relinquishing or renouncing. One renunciant had second thoughts and said she would have to think some more about it. Although nobody was talking (conversations would probably have been recorded in the waiting area) it was said by a few there that they would never have imagined that someday they would be doing this. One of the consulate staff sent an “interim letter” by e-mail for my husband to show at the border if he should have to cross before his CLN arrives. She is also sending a hard copy of this letter by snail mail. It is signed by the counsul himself. The 200 km. drive back home was on clear roads and in bright sunshine. We listened to Pete Seeger “freedom songs” on the way back. And now wham, bam, no thank you man, we get the news of the Harper IGA sell-out. My husband and I are both prepared to contribute to any legal action taken against the Canadian government.
A CLN will get you on the tax radar.
The provision to not shut down a recalcitrant account is very important.
I think alll 3 parties would have signed an IGA the nuclear weapon on trade of 30% withholding was just to great. If the damn UK and Euro had not signed their IGA this whole thing would have been a no go.
We do have a better IGA than UK no closing of recalcitrant account. No withholding a lot better than Europe. Still do not like it. Still will not buy US assets or travel to the USA.
Yoga Girl
slight correct to last post
I think all 3 parties would have signed if they were in power.
Stateless for the 5 time
You self certify you are not a US person for tax reason. You have to file taxes depending when you relinquish. Until you do that you are still a US person for tax reasons.
@Goerge3rd you certify that the beneficial owner is not a U.S. person.
@George right that’s the instruction for me, not sure about the bank or withholding agent.
Suspension of Rules Relating to Recalcitrant Accounts
.
The United States
shall
not
require a Reporting
Canadian Financial Institution
to withhold tax under section 1471 or 1472 of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code with respect to an account held by a recalcitrant account holder (as defined in section 1471
(d)(6)of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code), or to close such account, if the U.S.Competent Authority receives the information set forthin sub paragraph 2(a) of
Article 2 of this Agreement, subject to the provisions of Article 3
of this Agreement, with respect to such account
I may have to request a 34 year old SSN threw that out with green card
The language in the Canada IGA on relinquishment I think is very important. A negotiator fought for it for a reason. May I suggest that you Brockers work on getting clarification on why that occurred with your MPs.
Many of you guys in fact relinquished. We now know and have documents that a CLN is not required.
But again if you relinquished you must have no indicative actions that you claim to be a US Citizen.
The good news is that is a favorable provision that now must be incorporated in other IGA agreements.
Any thoughts pro and con?
The UK IGA;
(3) a copy of the account holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality
of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
(a) the reason the account holder does not have such a
certificate despite renouncing U.S. citizenship; or
The Canada IGA;
(a) The reason the Account Holder does not have such a certificate despite relinquishing U.S. citizenship; or
I don’t think this gets them around the Charter issues in any way. Notice that they say a lot about privacy issues — and absolutely nothing about the Charter. Yet the detailed due diligence clauses in the various annexes are exclusively designed to seek out “US Personhood” status. And if US Personhood is established, or even suspected, discriminatory practices are called for. A US person in Canada, who is also a Canadian citizen, is a second-class citizen.
I think it’s time to ask Peter Hogg whether or not this IGA would withstand a Charter challenge — and I’m betting he will say no. Given that the IGA requires legislation, it’s still premature to launch a class action suit — but it looks like that day is getting closer.
It’s no accident that the word Charter appears nowhere in any of the verbiage.
@Stateless, that is pulled from the instructions for the “requestor” which is the financial institution. You can google it and find the two sets of instructions.
@Petros
Because the press has to get its facts straight. I would have loved to believe that I can now buy TFSA’s!
**“This is strictly a tax information-sharing agreement. This agreement will not impose any U.S. taxes or penalties on U.S. citizens or U.S. residents holding accounts in Canada. The CRA does not collect the U.S. tax liability of a Canadian citizen if the individual was a Canadian citizen at the time the liability arose. This includes dual Canada-U.S. citizens. That will not change under this agreement.”
– Kerry-Lynne D. Findlay, Minister of National Revenue**
Then what is the purpose of handing over all this information then? Can we all say… huge database that will not be secured from anyone that wants access & will be available every time someone wants to get every spec of data of a person. But then I could be parnoid for nothing… From what I have read… the IRS has the worst track record in keeping their database info secure. Once someone is sucked into this database.. correctly or incorrectly.. they will never be able to get out. Remember when u cross customs… any… cause I got a feeling that all that info will be out there for all to see… as they data mine for something to use against u
4.
Notwithstanding paragraph 3 of this Article, with respect to each Reportable Account that
is
maintained by a Reporting Financial Institution as of June 30,
2014
and subject to paragraph 4 of Article 6
of this Agreement, the Parties are not required to obtain and
include in the exchanged information the Canadian
TIN or the U.S. TIN, as applicable, of
any relevant person if such taxpayer identifying number is
not in the records of the Reporting Financial Institution.
In such a case, the Parties shall obtain and include in the
exchanged information the date of birth of the relevant person, if the Reporting Financial
Institution has such date of birth in its records”
I have real pain when I copy info from PDF I have to delete balnak spots
Arrow:
There is going to be draft implementation legislative language put up in the coming days for comment.
@George cool thanks, that’s a relief, still hate signing U.S. tax forms.
@ARROW
Place of birth is the discriminatory language.
Why? It treats Canadian Citizens born in the USA with clinging US Citizenship differently than Canadian Citizens born in Toronto with clinging US Citizenship.
Just got some new video: this is a reenactment of one of the meetings in which Jim Flaherty, played by John Gandolfini, insists on his way and walks out of the meeting with the US representatives still sitting out at the table. Eventually, the Johnny Sacks crew allowed Flaherty to keep his TFSA, RDSP, RESPs.
I ask the question again is perjury on a W8ben is extraditable from Canada. This is especially true when you are person who threw out a green card 33 years ago and holds no US assets.
Pingback: Canadian citizens of US origin have some hard thinking to do – Canada agrees to #FATCA | Citizenship Counselling For U.S. Citizens in Canada and Abroad
George read page 21 exactly the same as UK FATCA you need a CLN or why you do not have one and self declaration you are not a US person for tax purposes.
The exempted accounts is a plus.
The relinquishment clause? Does that mean that if you relinquish(ed) upon attaining citizenship in Canada, banks have to accept that even if you don’t have a CLN in hand yet or ever? That needs clarifying.
Can’t hand over info on Canadian citizens? How does that impact joint accounts when the earned income is that of the Canadian and not the USP? I still don’t know how the USG gets to claim that the USP “earned” that income in the first place when both the CRA and the IRS know that I, for one, don’t earn squat.
I am still a bit worried about my child though. It’s years to go before she can renounce and it still seems disingenuous to me that anyone in the Canadian govt can say with a straight face that a child raised in Canadian is American or that the USG demanding that they file tax forms is anything other than extortion.
But, hey, we knew this was coming. So, launch a charter suit? Keep plugging away on our exit strategies? We shouldn’t kid ourselves. Our govt is ready to go on a cash grab spree in the US and it will happen whether it’s Harper, JT or Mulcair. Don’t kid yourselves. They have all been drinking the kool-aid.
Last thing! Anyone! Did I read correctly that this is a going forward agreement only? They are only sharing info going forward from this coming July and not going backward, right?
Are financial institutions owned by provincial governments still excluded? Quebec has an agency that offers accounts to Quebec residents which hold various kinds of the province’s bonds and other debt instruments in them. Other provinces may have similar.
There is also the question of certificated federal and provincial bonds, where the only record of the bond is wth the government’s treasury or finance ministry.
@Goerge3rd
Not the same, Canada has RELINQUISH while UK has RENOUNCE, Page 22. 😉
Major difference and its in their for a reason.
@YogaGirl, that key word was negotiated by Canada for a reason. Why?
Form W8Ben is held by the requestor.
It would have been impossible to state why you did not have a CLN despite renouncing US citizenship.
While its very easy to state why you do not have a CLN despite relinquishing US Citizenship.
Many people will not have a CLN despite relinquishing because it is not a requirement in order to relinquish!!!
But do not get me wrong, getting a CLN these days is probably a good idea because the goal posts will be moving.
@ brockers….well this IGA is no surprise really…….all I can say is
BRING ON the class action suits re: Charter of Rights and National Origin Discrimination
BRING ON the detailed analysis and challenge that u guyz can FINALLY DO with a concrete IGA
BRING ONhuge increase in RELINQUISHMENTS and RENUNCIATIONS that are consequence.
THINK AHEAD few years when USA has virtually no overseas nationals to softsell products
UK USPs already thrown under the bus particularly 250K USPs in London
So sad that Canadian Govt didnt THINK b4 signing up to this garbage
all one needs to know is in E Gibbons’ 19th C “decline and fall of [US] Empire”….
all UK switchedon USPs are with u heart and mind and spirit and culture.
Canada flag has pride of place on my mantelpiece!!
BROCKERS ROCK!!
Annex II section III.B.2 states that Credit unions are “Non-Reporting Canadian Financial Institutions that shall be treated as deemed-compliant FFIs”
This is too much to take in right now. I wasn’t expecting this until the budget announcement. We just got back minutes ago from my husband’s relinquishment. It was not a fun time (we drove through a ground blizzard to get there and it was bitter cold in the big city). At the consulate my husband spent 1.5 hours going through security and waiting on an uncomfortable chair. He only spent 3 minutes at 3 different bullet proof glass windows to get the deed done however. He was 1 of 10 people there at that time who were either relinquishing or renouncing. One renunciant had second thoughts and said she would have to think some more about it. Although nobody was talking (conversations would probably have been recorded in the waiting area) it was said by a few there that they would never have imagined that someday they would be doing this. One of the consulate staff sent an “interim letter” by e-mail for my husband to show at the border if he should have to cross before his CLN arrives. She is also sending a hard copy of this letter by snail mail. It is signed by the counsul himself. The 200 km. drive back home was on clear roads and in bright sunshine. We listened to Pete Seeger “freedom songs” on the way back. And now wham, bam, no thank you man, we get the news of the Harper IGA sell-out. My husband and I are both prepared to contribute to any legal action taken against the Canadian government.
A CLN will get you on the tax radar.
The provision to not shut down a recalcitrant account is very important.
I think alll 3 parties would have signed an IGA the nuclear weapon on trade of 30% withholding was just to great. If the damn UK and Euro had not signed their IGA this whole thing would have been a no go.
We do have a better IGA than UK no closing of recalcitrant account. No withholding a lot better than Europe. Still do not like it. Still will not buy US assets or travel to the USA.
Yoga Girl
slight correct to last post
I think all 3 parties would have signed if they were in power.
Stateless for the 5 time
You self certify you are not a US person for tax reason. You have to file taxes depending when you relinquish. Until you do that you are still a US person for tax reasons.